Deepest shooters ever

[professor ganson]

Obviously there are a number of things that one might mean in calling something deep vs. shallow. I want to leave the question ambiguous, but here are a few notes on how one might understand the issue:

1. complexity of rules. Rules governing MOVES/actions and SCORING can be of various degrees of complexity. For example, the sheer quantity of different kinds of moves available can make for depth (e.g. chess, Advance Wars).

2. room for strategizing. Demanding or rewarding a good deal of strategizing seems to make a game deep rather than shallow (again, chess is a good example).

3. thought-provoking. Hence we speak of the writings of Aristotle and Kant as deep (though their writings are also deep because they are so incredibly complex relative even to those of other philosophers).

4. difficulty of attaining mastery. self-explanatory.

[BulletMagnet]

Say what you will about Garegga's rank system, but it's definitely deep in terms of its complexity...pretty much every single thing you do in the game has some effect on it.

I'd say Progear and ESPGaluda's scoring systems also take some practice to get the hang of, in particular...in both not only do you have to destroy stuff under certain circumstances, but you also have to "resource manage" and "cash in" your gems/rings at the right time in order to best take advantage of the system.

Those games come most immediately to mind for me...

[Rob]

Chaos Field crosses the line for complexity of rules.

[sethsez]

spider fighter

[CIT]

In terms of gameplay: R-Type, Guwange, pretty much anything with an "orb"

In terms of scoring: Ikaruga

In terms of rules: Zanac Neo, Battle Garegga


EDIT: And Aristotle is not "deep". He was the world champion at stating the obvious.

[professor ganson]

EDIT: And Aristotle is not "deep". He was the world champion at stating the obvious.

OT:
Try reading Aristotle's Metaphysics. It's a bit easier if you can read Ancient Greek (translations are especially hard-going with this one), but it is widely agreed that this is one of the most challenging texts in the history of philosophy. Period.

If your point is that Aristotle's writings are not thought-provoking, then you must be speaking for yourself. No philosopher's writings have received more commentary than Aristotle's. Period.

[ROBOTRON]

Radiant Silvergun.

Deep, involving, spiritual ending...the whip.

[LoneSage]

For the third rule (thought-provoking), I'd say a good deal of Technosoft's stuff meets the criteria. Did Hyper Duel have anything like that?

R-Type Final also meets that standard, because not only was man fighting against his creation, but also because it really got you into the man inside the R9, which you don't see too often.

I'm space sick again and dead tired...
but it looks like Operation Last Dance
has entered the final phase.

I felt sorry for the guy; I mean, usually when I think of a pilot in the ship, I'm like "He must be badass, never letting go of the trigger! Guns ablazin and whatnot!", but not with the nameless pilot in R-Type Final.

[TVG]

mars matrix

[jp]

Border Down. Holy shit.

[Dandy J]

Chaos Field, Garegga, Border Down are good examples of deep systems. Psyvariar and Mars Matrix to a lesser extent. RSG and Ikaruga are not. They are technical and demanding, but not deep.

And of course deep is not synonymous with fun.

[landshark]

Dimahoo? All sorts of requirements for hitting various items. Filling sets, etc...

[Acid King]

OT:
Try reading Aristotle's Metaphysics. It's a bit easier if you can read Ancient Greek (translations are especially hard-going with this one), but it is widely agreed that this is one of the most challenging texts in the history of philosophy. Period.

If your point is that Aristotle's writings are not thought-provoking, then you must be speaking for yourself. No philosopher's writings have received more commentary than Aristotle's. Period.

That's probably because he is one of the oldest philosophers and thereforce, one of the most influential philosophers. Every student of philosophy reads Aristotle.

[NoboruWataya]

You guys have been mispelling Aristotle, it's spelled Archimedes.

[Ramus]

I never thought shmups were deep. That's why I like them so much; just shoot and dodge. Sure there's a scoring system for many of them, but nothing to make it "deep". Shmups are pure gaming action where story is pointless. Even if there is a story, it doesn't have a great impact like the gameplay does.

[landshark]

I never thought shmups were deep. That's why I like them so much; just shoot and dodge. Sure there's a scoring system for many of them, but nothing to make it "deep". Shmups are pure gaming action where story is pointless. Even if there is a story, it doesn't have a great impact like the gameplay does.

I agree with this.

[captain ahar]

there's a pc shmup that leaves me baffled, can't recall the title and shootthecore is down apparently.

edit: radio zonde is the game, but i must admit i didn't play it much.

it was one of those "pick-up-and-try-and-say-i-don't-get-it-and-quit" kind of things

[CMoon]

It has to be Forgotten Worlds. Paramecium? What the hell are they talking about?

[Ghegs]

I never thought shmups were deep. That's why I like them so much; just shoot and dodge. Sure there's a scoring system for many of them, but nothing to make it "deep". Shmups are pure gaming action where story is pointless. Even if there is a story, it doesn't have a great impact like the gameplay does.

"Deep" compared to what? Story wasn't even mentioned in professor ganson's notes, though #3 can include one. He wasn't asking about comparing shmups' depth to other genres, but inside the shmup genre. And hey...you gotta admit there's a slight difference in depth of gameplay between the first Gradius and Dai-Ou-Jou.

[Zweihander]

wow... that topic went down the shitter pretty fast. o_O

[Randorama]

It has to be Forgotten Worlds. Paramecium? What the hell are they talking about?

Whatever it is, you can't stop me with that stuff alone!

At any case:

1. Anything that has been produced during the period 1996-1999 (Roughly from Garegga to Raiden Fighters Jet, with some late examples like DOJ and Dimahoo). In that phase of "Great Complexity", it was common to define a relatively complex set of rules.

2. Fuzzier...but most modern games are relatively complex and require some strategic reflection. Garegga, Border Down, ESP.Galuda Chaos Field, Dimahoo, G.Darius...common trait: you need to know well level design in order to properly apply the game rules for big scores.

3.I don't get what you mean. I doubt, though, that "thought-provoking" is a good parameter outside the specific field of japanese arcade market. In this regard, thought-provoking games have been Gradius, R-type, Tatsujin, Gun Frontier, Rayforce, Raiden DX, Batsugun, Battle Garegga, Giga Wing: they more or less mark a change of milieu, so to speak.Other elements outside change of gameplay...trascurable.

4.Anything from period mentioned in 1. Most of these games have also a high ductility in the way you score, so finding the right sources of point is more difficult.

[it290]

I'd say Perfect Cherry Blossom is up there. What with the blossoms, supernatural border, slow mode, point of collection, spell card bonuses and all that. The complexity does seem to disappear somewhat as you get into the game, though.

[BulletMagnet]

Heck, how could I forget Zun's stuff...Imperishable Night is even more complex than Cherry Blossom is (though also, oddly enough, easier to finish).

[it290]

Is it? IN's rules seem to make more sense to me for some reason, but maybe that's just because I've played it more.

[BulletMagnet]

Guess it probably does depend on one's POV, but PCB's style always seemed a bit more cut and dry to me...raise the cherry and cherrymax meters (by either collecting items or shooting enemies, basically, though for the latter you just had to avoid using the "slow" shot as much as possible) and collect those blue point items to reap the rewards. IN involves constantly maintaining the balance of the "human/spirit" meter to make the point items worth the most, not to mention paying attention to which "mode" you switch to to kill certain enemies...sort of a combination of Night Raid and Ikaruga.

[Zweihander]

Space Invaders.

[howmuchkeefe]

No game has made my brain twist as much as Ikaruga. I find surviving hard enough. Figuring out ways to do it while chaining? Ow.

I'm not seriously playing the game as I'm practicing Perfect Cherry Blossom right now, but I'll get to it someday. I know that the moment I watch a replay of the game, I'll deny myself a lot of the satisfaction of mastering the game, so I'm trying not to in the meantime.

[gs68]

1. Complexity of rules: Armed Police Batrider (16 ships with 4 varieties each, single player or team play, the Garegga ships' formations, etc...wow)

2. Room for strategizing: Tyrian 2000. If you want to blast through MicroSol's massive corporate army you'll want to pick the right equipment and ship.

3. ???

4. Difficulty of attaining mastery: Ikaruga. Want me to master it? Give me about 10 straight years of playing without taking any breaks whatsoever. This game and its chaining system of doom demands perfection.

[ResOGlas]

DoDonPachi, since no one ever plays on Very Hard. I guess there's complexity, mystery, and difficulty to master that no one is willing to attemp here.


Don't get upset, lots of love. -ResOGlas

[Frogacuda]

I would have to say Progear. Took me quite a while to even get a handle on the scoring in that one.