Can you truly enjoy a shooter by credit feeding or sucking?

[Siren2011]

Well you obviously don't love it enough because if you really did LOVE it you'd be playing it all the time and it wouldn't take too long to reach 13 mil providing you're not completely incompetent.

I like the way you think. It's one thing to dabble in the hobby, but to eat, breathe, and shit shoot 'em ups for long periods of time and making enormous progress, to me, is what these games were made for. I'll never forget my marathon sessions with Galuda, Guwange (ESPECIALLY, Guwange...) DOJ, and Ketsui. Many of the best gaming moments of my life came from surmounting my previous scores and making it to the 5th stage in each of them.

I've introduced a number of people to the genre in hopes of getting them up to a similar level to me and having someone to work on and learn games with...

I know where you're coming from, but my advice to you is to stop trying. I've given up on that dream a long time ago. If people only want to play/watch/listen to shit, then let them eat shit, I say. "Passive fans" have absolutely no place in a hobby such as this one. I'd much rather play in solitude than with some fagot who plays once, pretends to enjoy himself, and never returns.

...but the more seriously I work towards a goal and see myself failing to progress despite devoting all my energy to it...it just doesn't really feel great.

I can totally relate. I HATE myself if I walk away from the game while close to finally defeating a boss. Insulting myself is a great motivator. It makes me say "Ok, butthole, you're wrong and I'll show you that I can demolish this guy. Then I don't rest until it's done.

[xbl0x180]

Well you obviously don't love it enough because if you really did LOVE it you'd be playing it all the time and it wouldn't take too long to reach 13 mil providing you're not completely incompetent.

I like the way you think. It's one thing to dabble in the hobby, but to eat, breathe, and shit shoot 'em ups for long periods of time and making enormous progress, to me, is what these games were made for. I'll never forget my marathon sessions with Galuda, Guwange (ESPECIALLY, Guwange...) DOJ, and Ketsui. Many of the best gaming moments of my life came from surmounting my previous scores and making it to the 5th stage in each of them.

I thought he was being sarcastic...

[Siren2011]

I thought he was being sarcastic...

It's hard to tell on the internet.

[Paradigm]

I thought he was being sarcastic...

You thought wrong.

[Erppo]

I agree with most of what that anonymous person wrote. The thing I dislike most about the western shmup community is that it seems many people don't even want to get good at the games (or at least don't want to put any real effort into it).

As for "true" enjoyment, I have always enjoyed games a lot more after I have actually learned to perform better at them. So no, personally I don't believe you're getting everything out of the game if you're not really trying to get good at it.

[jonny5]

I agree with most of what that anonymous person wrote. The thing I dislike most about the western shmup community is that it seems many people don't even want to get good at the games (or at least don't want to put any real effort into it).

As for "true" enjoyment, I have always enjoyed games a lot more after I have actually learned to perform better at them. So no, personally I don't believe you're getting everything out of the game if you're not really trying to get good at it.

What I think a lot of newer members don't realize is this forum has changed a LOT over the last year or 2. A lot of the hardcore guys who have been playing and posting forever have since stopped posting (for whatever reasons) and we have a huge new group that has moved in that are not as informed especially with older stuff, are much newer to the genre in general and as such, aren't so much the info bearers as much as they are info seekers.

The difference between the dynamics on this forum now versus 2 or 3 years ago even is like night and day. Even just look at the join dates of a lot of the people who are posting regularly now. This forum used to be fairly mature and was frequented by a largely adult/grown up member base who was well informed and well versed in the genre, both past and present; fast forward to now and it seems lots of the newer members are high school kids who are just discovering the genre through cave ports and touhou.

More often than not when I read this forum now, I just end up shaking my head.

Oh well, just my 2 cents. Attack away kiddies!

[Siren2011]

A very insightful post, jonny5. I envy you for witnessing the forum's heyday. I think I'll go back to the very first threads in Shmups Chat history and see what they were all about.

[jonny5]

A very insightful post, jonny5. I envy you for witnessing the forum's heyday. I think I'll go back to the very first threads in Shmups Chat history and see what they were all about.

I don't even think I caught the 'heyday'. It was already starting to change when I came along, but the change has definitely been more drastic in the last year or so. I blame the cave ports.

[Sumez]

Well you obviously don't love it enough because if you really did LOVE it you'd be playing it all the time and it wouldn't take too long to reach 13 mil providing you're not completely incompetent.

Dude, I WISH I had the time!

[power UP]

I don't even think I caught the 'heyday'. It was already starting to change when I came along, but the change has definitely been more drastic in the last year or so. I blame the cave ports.

It all started going down hill when icycalm got banned

[Sumez]

Sure we have some really good ST threads (Icarus you are awesome) but even the best of them aren't going to be as helpful as having someone who really understands the game sitting next to you and telling you why you just died in the same place for the thousandth time, or demonstrate and explain something that you could just never quite put together despite having a general understanding of it.

I dunno it's just been frustrating for me. I enjoy the forums, we have a lot of good discussion here and there and it's a great source of general info, but I'd really like more direct interaction and knowledge being shared between players. I do enjoy shooters categorically, but I derive the most pleasure from games I care about by actively improving at them and reaching goals I've set for myself. I find myself getting discouraged just tackling the same games and falling short in the same ways time after time after time, especially witnessing the skill gap between myself and some other players. I know that everyone got where they are by playing and playing and playing, but without any interaction or anybody around to ask for help it can start to feel somewhat hopeless.

I do love shooters and can enjoy them quite a bit, but the more seriously I work towards a goal and see myself failing to progress despite devoting all my energy to it...it just doesn't really feel great. I feel like having players more willing to help out and encourage would go a long way.

Great post! Really.
I wish more strategy guides on this forum would have details on how to handle specific patterns and specific parts of each stage of a game, both for survival and scoring. It would help more people tackle the game in question and approach the genre in general.

[TonK]

I thought he was being sarcastic...

You thought wrong.

Who are you referring to?

[xbl0x180]

I thought he was being sarcastic...

You thought wrong.

Who are you referring to?

Hahah. I was responding to his post about loving a game enough to spend a s**load of time trying to score 13 mill on it while the ones who don't score high enough are considered as incompetent and probably don't love the game as much.

Gee, I'm glad there are some out there who have to remind me when and how I'm supposed to have a good time. That'd be like someone telling me, "Hey, don't bother to suit up unless you can bat .500" or "if you can't catch the biggest blue fin tuna, then you must not love fishing." Hahahah. Absolutely preposterous

[Udderdude]

A very insightful post, jonny5. I envy you for witnessing the forum's heyday. I think I'll go back to the very first threads in Shmups Chat history and see what they were all about.

You aren't going back far enough.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/121510/

(Yes there are posts by me in there)

[Siren2011]

That is pretty damn ghetto, Udderdude! I had no idea you and Maxlords were with the hobby so long ago.

[Bloodreign]

Even back in those days (good god Gamespy, I remember the Castlevania Dungeon Forum ran on that), there were still folks complaining about the new breed coming in.


I remember browsing the forums in those days, was before I made the Shmups.com plunge.

[BPzeBanshee]

I agree with most of what that anonymous person wrote. The thing I dislike most about the western shmup community is that it seems many people don't even want to get good at the games (or at least don't want to put any real effort into it).

As for "true" enjoyment, I have always enjoyed games a lot more after I have actually learned to perform better at them. So no, personally I don't believe you're getting everything out of the game if you're not really trying to get good at it.

What I think a lot of newer members don't realize is this forum has changed a LOT over the last year or 2. A lot of the hardcore guys who have been playing and posting forever have since stopped posting (for whatever reasons) and we have a huge new group that has moved in that are not as informed especially with older stuff, are much newer to the genre in general and as such, aren't so much the info bearers as much as they are info seekers.

The difference between the dynamics on this forum now versus 2 or 3 years ago even is like night and day. Even just look at the join dates of a lot of the people who are posting regularly now. This forum used to be fairly mature and was frequented by a largely adult/grown up member base who was well informed and well versed in the genre, both past and present; fast forward to now and it seems lots of the newer members are high school kids who are just discovering the genre through cave ports and touhou.

More often than not when I read this forum now, I just end up shaking my head.

Oh well, just my 2 cents. Attack away kiddies!

I was here in 2009 and I've noticed, especially within the Development forum which as far as I'm concerned I'm most active in.

I always thought Shmups Chat was the real "degenerated" spot though as opposed to the entire forum, there's still older members around but evidently not as many since they're "above" the stuff that happens here nowadays.

[Sumez]

2002 is long ago?
NOW I feel old.

[Aliquantic]

It's a cliché, but be the change you want to see on Shmups.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

2002 is long ago?
NOW I feel old.

[AuraDRGN]

Im a not-so-superplayer now but... When I played 1942 at my psp using capcom classic remix I relize that I really suck at it I was shocked when I need a perfect 100 credits to complete it

[zaphod]

Okay. it's not exactly wrong to credit feed, as long as you plan on going back and beating it right later.

Many people once they beat the game that's it. no matter what they did to beat it. If they can't beat it without cheating, they cheat.

With your typical checkpointing unlimited lives game, that's very much a valid way to play the game (well except for the cheating). In fact, that's the right way to play it.

But that's not how to get your moneys worth out of a bullet hell shooter.

And people (including many western reviewers) simply don't understand this.

With free unlimited virtual credits you don't even need a cheat code to cheat, so to speak. Credit feeding a bullet hell shmup for any purpose other than practice is essentially cheating. Sure there's no codes, but it gets you to the end as surely as any invincibility code. And if seeing the end is all you care about. well then you don't get your moneys worth from the game.

The limited credit system is a very good compromise. it lets a player see what's going to happen a bit further into the game, and helps them prepare for beating it for real, but doesn't let them go way past where their current abilities will take them.

On the toher hand, if you single credit clear the game first try.. well... then you probably got ripped off when you bough it for 40$

A few games handled things a slightly different way. The would allow continues, but not on the final level. (Shinobi arcade, salamander arcade) Or they wold force you back to the start of the final level if you continued on it (Silkworm arcade). Either way, the idea is simple. prevent people who aren't skilled enough from reaching the end of the game by pumping quarters.

[Illyrian]

I find it bizarre that people think new players on the forums and in general is a bad thing. Look at the fighting game community, 3 years ago It was much smaller than it is now, and it's gone through a real renaissance.

More people coming into the shmup genre hopefully means newer, better games. At least that's the theory, in practice who knows.

Also Cave ports are awesome.

[Aliquantic]

On the toher hand, if you single credit clear the game first try.. well... then you probably got ripped off when you bough it for 40$

Be careful there, it seems you are overlooking that playing for score is at least equally valid a goal as a 1cc in most STGs, and the true challenge in some modern games (and something the anonymous poster from earlier brought up as well).

[Icarus]

I find it bizarre that people think new players on the forums and in general is a bad thing. Look at the fighting game community, 3 years ago It was much smaller than it is now, and it's gone through a real renaissance.
More people coming into the shmup genre hopefully means newer, better games. At least that's the theory, in practice who knows.
Also Cave ports are awesome.

The difference is that fighting game communities are competitive by culture and by nature, and any scrubs end up being "trained by fire" and turned into competitive players as a result. The same is not true here, where competition is not an inherent culture - just look at STGT throughout the years, only a handful of teams have played to win, the rest play casually and complain about the games being chosen. And while the players that wish to advance in their skills will improve by seeking out rivalries and competition, the rest of the scrubs here will forever remain scrubs. Which is a shame, as many times in the past, I've wanted to find ways to advance the abilities of the community here, to create a culture of progression and a network of information sharing like over in Japan and surrounding Asian countries. Obviously it will be difficult since we have no arcades here, but there are other tools at our disposal.

The average ability of the community has improved greatly since the first time this site and forum was set up in the early 90's, but there is still a very long way to go before the Western community can be viewed in the same manner as the Far East Asian communities. The biggest problem I see now is the current trend of casual play, and the immense amount of bickering and complaining about the games from a community of supposed enthusiasts. It really doesn't surprise me that many of the complaints about how shit a game is comes from the lowest of the low level players, while the high level players just play games and get on with it. The other major problem is the lack of sharing - strategies aren't being disseminated throughout the community, which means new players will continue to repeat the same mistakes of old. It reminds me of a few years back, when Raizing rank-related threads would pop up every month, but it was only after the near completion of the ST thread and the excellent info from the various game hackers that the occurrence of threads on the subject rapidly decreased.

[dan76]

1cc'ing an arcade game means you had the longest possible time on the machine for the lowest possible cost. They are designed for us to pump money into, so a 1cc really is beating the arcade. I apply this attitude to arcade ports.

I asked a few players at casino if they would rather improve on their score but die by level 4 or have a poorer score but get the clear, and surprisingly (to me) most said they would rather improve their score. At the recent shmup meet anytime someone got a 1cc or came close to a 2-ALL it was greeted with a round of applause - the score seemed secondary.

Having shorter games but improving you score is exactly what the arcade op wants you to do

For console shooters it's different - as can be seen in the arrange modes on Cave's releases, lower difficulty with more complex scoring.

[Deca]

Which is a shame, as many times in the past, I've wanted to find ways to advance the abilities of the community here, to create a culture of progression and a network of information sharing like over in Japan and surrounding Asian countries. Obviously it will be difficult since we have no arcades here, but there are other tools at our disposal.

I would like nothing more than to be a part of this sort of community There have to be other players that feel the same, I just want actual interaction with players that actually care about improving and learning, but most of those players here are already so far above me and so self motivated that they have no real reason to bother. There have to be serious players at a similar level to mine trying to improve, right? Where are they x.x

[TonK]

I thought he was being sarcastic...

Who are you referring to?

Hahah. I was responding to his post about loving a game enough to spend a s**load of time trying to score 13 mill on it while the ones who don't score high enough are considered as incompetent and probably don't love the game as much.

Gee, I'm glad there are some out there who have to remind me when and how I'm supposed to have a good time. That'd be like someone telling me, "Hey, don't bother to suit up unless you can bat .500" or "if you can't catch the biggest blue fin tuna, then you must not love fishing." Hahahah. Absolutely preposterous

I mean, if you're trying your damn hardest and not making progress, you have to sell the game or get one you can enjoy.

I had DFK 1.5 - I beat that game so many times I lost count. But my score was terribly low. I didn't feel I was getting all the game had to offer.

Now with Progear - I KNOW I can and will score higher, because I learn new things every time I play. Will I ever have 300m points? Hell no. But I'm having a blast playing through the first loop.

Now let's discuss DDP - I've learned so much from that game. It's one of my favorite shooters ever. And I cant describe e feeling I had when I made the second loop.

Between my time at work and with my family, I practice late at night.

But if you're buying games to say you own them, or just casually play, I'll flat out tell you that there is more to it than what you are doing.

[Bananamatic]

fast forward to now and it seems lots of the newer members are high school kids who are just discovering the genre through cave ports and touhou.

these words hurt me

The thing I dislike most about the western shmup community is that it seems many people don't even want to get good at the games (or at least don't want to put any real effort into it).

Fucking casuals.

[xbl0x180]

I mean, if you're trying your damn hardest and not making progress, you have to sell the game or get one you can enjoy.

My point exactly. I have to do what because of what...? But I already said I was enjoying the game(s) for my own reasons. Why concern yourself with how others have a good time?

I'm reaching here, but - from reading a few of the responses in this topic [and others] - if being great at a game involves the possibility of becoming a neurotic douchebag, then I'd rather be the poorest player around.

But if you're buying games to say you own them, or just casually play, I'll flat out tell you that there is more to it than what you are doing.

That's a leap in logic you made. How do you even begin to measure "true enjoyment"? A brain MRI scan of a gamer? It's really all the same when you're dealing with the reward centre of the brain: dopamine, serotonin, and endorphins (or whichever neurochemicals are involved) go into overdrive no matter what. In a way, people don't have much control over what they find a "rewarding and enjoyable" experience. They just do something repeatedly because they like it. In essence, you can't tell me how and when I will have a good time