Can you truly enjoy a shooter by credit feeding or sucking?

[Sumez]

I loved shoot'em ups long before I learned limiting myself to just one credit.
"Credit feeding" doesn't necessarily mean that you don't care about dying at all, but there's no doubt it makes it a lot harder to take the game seriously.

I noticed ALL the games mentioned by the thread starter were Cave games. I think especially Cave's games are impossible to enjoy when credit feeding. Most of these games are built up ENTIRELY around score to a level where survival is almost redundant - of course, you can play them for survival, but I think especially in Progear and Futari, trying to make maximum use of the scoring system is where the true fun is at (obnoxious chaining systems like DDP and Guwange, not so much )

On the other hand take most horizontal games which do more in terms of giving variation in the stage design and more importantly use checkpoints which require you to be able to pass each part of the game without taking a hit, no matter how many credits you waste on doing so - I always liked the checkpoint systems because they allow everyone, no matter how shitty they are at the game, to play for survival and beat each part of the game separately, if not in one go like an expert player would.
Playing for score, however, the situation is totally different, as already stated.

[dpful]

If the game is beautiful enough to look at, listen to, and the action in right, I can often enjoy a "meditative state", you know, tension-fun-trying hard, in the midst of a credit feed.

I don't play the games every day. That usually happens if it's been a bit between plays.
If it's been a really long time, I could be found sitting in the basement on my mame cab, playing single credits on multiple games, then credit feeding multiple games late into the night. I wouldn't do that the next day.

I haven't sat at a single game and worked and worked at it since I was 13. And then only because I only had a few games at a time. And back then it could have been any game. Fester's Quest.

Oh yeah, I'll credit feed an R-type, Truxton, or shienryu like a maniac- probably more often than I'd 1c them.

[TenshiP]

Before I started playing 1CC, I've always enjoyed to play a certain game as much I can until I ran out of coins.

[Naglfar]

I don't enjoy credit feeding or sucking. As a super-baby, I hate failing or losing. I generally use savestates to learn a game, and most of my enjoyment comes from improvement. Games that I can't figure out or sections I can't improve at get put away pretty quickly, possibly to be picked up later once I'm better overall at the genre.

[hiptanaka]

Even a baby could finish it credit feeding? What about Gradius V? Even on Very Easy the game is stupid hard, annoyingly so where now I only play one credit and then the game sits on the shelf for over a month. The only way to earn extra continue credits it to keep playing it either with multiple games or credit feeding.

Since you restart at the exact spot you died (using the default mode), and bosses time out, I think even a baby could credit feed his way through. My point was unlimited credit feeding takes away any incentive to improve, and removes the feeling of accomplishment from the game, to me.

I loved shoot'em ups long before I learned limiting myself to just one credit.
"Credit feeding" doesn't necessarily mean that you don't care about dying at all, but there's no doubt it makes it a lot harder to take the game seriously.

Good point. You can still play the game to get better at it, even if it takes 50 credits. The next day you might do it in 40. Personally, though, I usually enjoy games that are more tuned to my (pretty basic) skill levels. Deathsmiles was great for me. It took a reasonable amount of credits on my first playthrough, then I started going for 1CC right away (and did it a few months later).

[toaplan_shmupfan]

I think how much progress one makes in the game makes a difference.

For ThunderForce IV/Lightening Force, I didn't have to credit feed because I initially finished it on Easy using the 99 lives code (i.e., set Stock to 0 in the options menu). I decided the game was worth the effort, and I later limited myself to one credit using the default 3 lives each time I played, before I eventually finished it on a single credit on Easy, therefore a 1cc.

Now I'm stuck on Normal, but there's no need to credit feed. On one of my better days, I'll get to stage 10 but not beat the last boss--good enough for me, I'll try again some other time. On a worse day, I might get stuck at the stage 8 boss or the stage 9 boss--not as good as before, but I'll take it and try again some other time. The point is, I'm getting sufficient play time on that single credit that there isn't a need to credit feed.

In contrast, when I do play Gradius V and haven't shut the game off in frustration, I'll play out all the continue credits (currently I have 7) before I call it done. I've got the game set to Very Easy, 5 lives, extra at 200,000/300,000 so I at least get some play time on each credit. The first boss is costing me one to two lives. The middle section of stage 2 is costing me two lives. That usually means I get to the stage 2 boss rush with just two or three lives left because I get the extra at 200,000 points. The stage 2 boss rush is 4 bosses in a row and the last one is the one that ends my game on one credit. Yes, I need to do better (the game even says "you need some practice"), but then I'll credit feed to go further than that since I'm not getting that much play time on a single credit. I think the other thing is I need to forget about score and just play for survival in that game.

Same goes for any other game I may play, to keep from going on and on I'll limit this post to just those two games.

[abaxas]

There is no 'correct' way to play a shooter. Some enjoy 1cc(ing), others enjoy strategy, then even non shmup people enjoy a good blast of random 'killing'.

Also people find subgames within games. Toothpasting competitions in raiden dx, using the wrong craft, deliberately not taking power ups etc etc. Often a mucked up game can force you in a new direction.

Define your own goals.

[NOAH]

As a sucky player who's gradually gotten better I can say that the games are still enjoyable without a 1cc. The fact that scores typically reset with each credit still creates an incentive for getting better not to mention accessing the 2nd loop of a game. I'll admit there's absolutely zero satisfaction in completing the game with more than one credit, but seeing myself complete the game with the fewest credits ever and topping my own high score keeps me motivated to keep working toward a 1cc. From an arcade-goers perspective, I suppose completion of the game upon credit feeding is still satisfying since the game would be completed within a budget of quarters, kinda like finishing a beat-em-up as a kid.

I can say that I've introduced bullet-hell games with small hit boxes to friends and they've had a blast getting through messes of bullets that they thought they were doomed in..........even if they did die a bazillion times outside of those moments.

[Hagane]

You won't truly appreciate the games, but you can definitely have fun playing that way.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I go for the 1CC and usually quit the game after all my men die. If it's early enough in the game when I die my first man I just rage quit usually. I sometimes credit feed after all my men die but it's just for practicing the later levels and the first credit is the only fun one. I usually turn the difficulty down and lives number up for a while when I first get a game but that isn't always helpful for the long run.

[Siren2011]

Some of (but not all) my favorite runs featured myself getting my ass kicked. There comes a time in a shmupper's life (has that word gotten annoying, yet?) when he gets comfortable with dying, possibly to an extent of it being one of his favorite parts of playing for survival. The STG player's poison enters his veins once dying has become a nuisance --then it passes to the next phase, when it becomes infuriating. If you ask me, this isn't a conscious choice. Sometimes your tolerance is there, and other times you'll take it like a bitch by throwing the controller. I have had times when, after practicing so much that I had a near-perfect run ("perfect" being said for convenience's sake; a 1-all without grinding the fuck out of scoring and having absurdly high numbers.), I'll watch it all fall apart when I come back to the PS2 a month later and I can't even make it past level one without dying once, let alone keeping consistent with my previously thought out strategies for later levels. But doesn't this happen to more or less everyone? I heard someone in this forum (I don't recall who) once say that even superplay Gods fuck their runs up from time to time.

[ave]

For me playing a shooter without knowing what's going on (and attempting to improve quickly) is not very entertaining. In my opinion, all the joy that a shooter (or arcade game) can be comes from being able to master it by improving your skill to a max like in VS fighters or puzzle games. If a game appeals to me, I say I like it, but I don't really enjoy it until I have become good enough at it to play it on a certain skill level. After all one of the reasons why shooting games are so short is so you can take your time to improve all the sections. If a game would want you to credit-feed through it, makers would just create 30 generic stages with 5 generic enemies and expect you to have fun destroying mindless formations that make no sense.

I enjoy being mighty in a game, for instance beating giant bosses that shoot difficult patterns at you or getting through a maze of bullets while holding a combo. I don't feel mighty when I have to press continue all the time, I don't feel like I do good when I die all the time. It's no fun to me I don't understand how someone is entertained by this. It's like missing the ball all the time during a round of Tennis. That's not very cool, is it? So can having infinite balls make this any more enjoyable?

[xbl0x180]

It's no fun to me I don't understand how someone is entertained by this. It's like missing the ball all the time during a round of Tennis. That's not very cool, is it? So can having infinite balls make this any more enjoyable?

Well, I do enjoy the batting cage and the golf driving range... just hittin' the ball around for kicks without the benefit of playing the entire game. Set things at different speeds, try it during inclement weather, etc. It's pretty hard for me to understand the concept of "enjoying something correctly"

[Illyrian]

I'll chime in on this.

I got Espgaluda II a few days back. I can basically do the first 2 levels and score pretty well, but from stage 3 onwards I think that game gets much harder.

The first few times I played it I "gameovered" on the 3rd level, but decided to hit start and carry on, and it was a good thing.
Apart from seeing the rest of the levels, I was able to actually dodge through a number of the boss patterns and do okay on the last two levels. The final boss gave me a kicking mostly, but the point is, I saw that even though I got a continue on the 3rd level, it wasn't completely hopeless and I could see that with practice I'd be able to eventually get through it.

In other words, credit feeding there helped me, albeit I only used 3 credits for the whole game so I dunno if that really counts as credit feeding as is being discussed in this thread.

I'm happy to credit feed initially, but now I absolutely feel I have to sit down and learn the levels 1 by 1 and go for a 1cc, credit feeding in Espgaluda II after the first day would just be boring.

As a brand new player to the genre though I think credit feeding through Dodonpachi or Guwange, as I did a few times 3 years ago when I got started, was pretty pointless as you can't get through any of the patterns and you're basically bombing or dying every 5 seconds.

[Naryoril]

If have trouble getting to stage 4 in mushihime sama futari black label original and i only reached stage 5 once so far, so by your standards: i suck.

I am enjoying myself though. I like the challenge, even though i can't overcome it (yet), i want to improve myself so i can conquer it. And after managing that i feel really satisfied. But the game doesn't wait too long to throw the next challenge at me and the whole cycle starts anew. I think it requires a special mindset to play modern shoot'em ups with the 1CC or high score in mind. And people with that mindset will enjoy themselves, even though they (still) suck at these games.

If enjoying oneself wasn't possible while sucking, all the people who are good a shmups nowadays would be complete iditos, because i'm pretty sure everybody sucked at them at first. And if you spend a lot of your free time (you need a lot of time to not-suck) on something you don't enjoy, you are a complete idiot.

[gray117]

I think Tonk has a point, but I wouldn't describe it by saying whether you can 'truely enjoy' it. Rather I think 'experience it in full' is more apt. And in some respects this has gotten a little confused with difficulties and loops and true final bosses [I think it's accepted that seeing content is not necessarily the same as experiencing it fully].

... what an individual takes as 'truely enjoying' something I think is a little more subjective, than 'fully experiencing' all aspects of play that a game has to offer.

I would also think you can 'appreciate' a game's higher level play without ever actually fully experiencing it. Whilst I would say mindlessly feeding credits removes a lot of the edge to these games, there's still a vast middle ground of potential enjoyment between this mindlessness and the 1 credit experience.

[Anch]

It's okay for me to feed about 3-4 credits. Anything beyond 4, I loose my composure and stop. It does hurt when you put in another credit, like in Otomedius or Gradius because the score turns back to 0 or 1, And I don't really like that.

[zaphod]

The shmup is inherently an arcade game, and thus credit feeding is supposed to cost you real money.

When a port (or emulated game) lets you credit feed with impunity, and drops you offf right back where you were, then such credit feeding takes out all the challenge.

THe only exception to this is using checkpoints.

If a shooter does this then you cannot credit feed because death takes away some of your progress, just like it does in nearly every other type of game.

The reason most bullet hell games don't use checkpoints is so that arcade players aremore willing to pump quarters in to see the end and make the arcade owner more money.

Ths is why i believe ports shouldn't allow unlimited virtual credits from the get go. First there should be a 4 credit limit or so, with the limit steadily going up as you keep playing, to help lesser players beat the game. As much as people complain about r-type final, it did have that idea right. While hardcore players can go for the one credit clear, others can just keep trying over and over again until finally they are given enough continues to beat it. Note that the series also uses checkpoints.

Most games have some sort of checkpoint system to keep the game a challenge with infinite continues, and nobody complains about it. But making a bullet hell game checkpoint? that's too harsh, or so everyone seesm to think.

[Sumez]

I disagree with most of your moneymaking theories, but I do agree on that fact that shooters without checkpoints should initially have only a limited number of credits available, if only to teach people who aren't used to the genre how to play it properly.
I think the fact that Ikaruga has this was a big factor in its success.

[captpain]

I disagree with most of your moneymaking theories,

erm, no, that's fact, if you're talking about what zaphod just said.

[TonK]

Here's a PM I got from a member.

Its another opinion.

You're aware there are over 300M points in the game, correct? How can you truly enjoy the game if you're not even getting 10% of the points out of it?

Personally, I dislike the vast majority of the shmups forum (I've talked shit about you behind your back, but I don't really dislike you, just things that you post -- live and let live, I say) for various reasons, including that almost all the people I dislike are just hipsters who "play" the games and circlejerk on this cesspool of a forum.

However, if one were to zyklon every idiot on the forum, there pretty much would be zero activity on it. This is why we just have to put things into perspective. You say that you've got 13.9M at Progear, but I consider that on about the same tier of involvement as people credit-feeding and only getting to stage 3 in Futari and stuff. I'd like you to step back and see the larger picture. As I said before, live and let live.

I got 13.X million points in Progear just by getting to the 1-5 boss (which took two days), and I consider myself a horrible player. It may seem hard or unrealistic to compare ourselves with Japanese players, but if you walk into any game center, most of the "serious" players would be extremely competent at the games they're playing. A player who considered himself "mediocre" would have an 80M Progear score. If you look at a Japanese game center and then look at the Western shooting game community-type thing, you'll notice many vast differences, even barring the obvious (that we don't have arcades). Those differences include: 1. that people actually play the game, 2. people watch each other play the game, observing and taking new, significant things away from each play, 3. people try hard, 4. l2p, 5. I'm getting sick of typing all this, so I'm just going to let your brain fill in the rest.

If you want to really get Western players into these games, figure out a way to let lots of people watch and speak to each other and get them to play consistently. It's easy to say "USTREAM.TV, IDIOT", but it's quite obvious that practically no one on the forum uses it to watch each other play. If you had two thousand people all working on the same game at once and consulting with each other in a way that mimicked game center communities in the closest ways possible (making watching other players as close to walking over to the Raiden machine as possible, talking as easy as asking the two other guys watching what just happened, etc.) and actually giving a damn about what they were doing, they'd be a pretty formidable force, too.

The fact is, nobody here gives a damn. You have the players like sikraiken, MrMonkeyMan, etc., but you don't have the spectrum in between. The tip top players are self-motivated and have the mental control to destroy with or without having other people to talk to (and when they need help, they get it), so they will destroy whether or not they have an arcade to play in. Then you slide almost immediately into the lowest of the low shit-tier players.

I haven't read the rest of the thread and I don't plan to.

[Blackbird]

I resent being caricaturized as a hipster. Hipsters pretend to like things that have cult popularity in order to appear cool. I genuinely like something that is profoundly uninteresting to most people as an end unto itself. I'm just in it for fun, nothing more.

I'm just going to throw this one out there: scoring well does not necessarily equal enjoyment.

There are lots of games that you can play for score and derive profound enjoyment from scoring well because the scoring system is intuitive and rewarding.

However, there are just as many games where it's completely pointless - "scoring" is sitting there milking the boss for a few hours until the counter stops. I couldn't really call that enjoyment with a straight face. You may as well throw the scoring out the window and play for survival, because the game would be much more enjoyable that way.

[xbl0x180]

Here's a PM I got from a member.

Its another opinion.

You're aware there are over 300M points in the game, correct? How can you truly enjoy the game if you're not even getting 10% of the points out of it?

Personally, I dislike the vast majority of the shmups forum (I've talked shit about you behind your back, but I don't really dislike you, just things that you post -- live and let live, I say) for various reasons, including that almost all the people I dislike are just hipsters who "play" the games and circlejerk on this cesspool of a forum.

However, if one were to zyklon every idiot on the forum, there pretty much would be zero activity on it. This is why we just have to put things into perspective. You say that you've got 13.9M at Progear, but I consider that on about the same tier of involvement as people credit-feeding and only getting to stage 3 in Futari and stuff. I'd like you to step back and see the larger picture. As I said before, live and let live.

I got 13.X million points in Progear just by getting to the 1-5 boss (which took two days), and I consider myself a horrible player. It may seem hard or unrealistic to compare ourselves with Japanese players, but if you walk into any game center, most of the "serious" players would be extremely competent at the games they're playing. A player who considered himself "mediocre" would have an 80M Progear score. If you look at a Japanese game center and then look at the Western shooting game community-type thing, you'll notice many vast differences, even barring the obvious (that we don't have arcades). Those differences include: 1. that people actually play the game, 2. people watch each other play the game, observing and taking new, significant things away from each play, 3. people try hard, 4. l2p, 5. I'm getting sick of typing all this, so I'm just going to let your brain fill in the rest.

If you want to really get Western players into these games, figure out a way to let lots of people watch and speak to each other and get them to play consistently. It's easy to say "USTREAM.TV, IDIOT", but it's quite obvious that practically no one on the forum uses it to watch each other play. If you had two thousand people all working on the same game at once and consulting with each other in a way that mimicked game center communities in the closest ways possible (making watching other players as close to walking over to the Raiden machine as possible, talking as easy as asking the two other guys watching what just happened, etc.) and actually giving a damn about what they were doing, they'd be a pretty formidable force, too.

The fact is, nobody here gives a damn. You have the players like sikraiken, MrMonkeyMan, etc., but you don't have the spectrum in between. The tip top players are self-motivated and have the mental control to destroy with or without having other people to talk to (and when they need help, they get it), so they will destroy whether or not they have an arcade to play in. Then you slide almost immediately into the lowest of the low shit-tier players.

I haven't read the rest of the thread and I don't plan to.

Dude doesn't sound as if he's truly enjoying shooters... in spite of the fact he reputedly doesn't credit feed and gets top scores. OH TEH IRONY!

[ShmupSamurai]

Is it bad to admit that I still credit feed on occasion?

especially if it's a shump I'm playing for the first time?

[Udderdude]

If you credit feed through a shmup on your first playthrough, I think you're spoiling a lot of the game for yourself. Part of the fun, for me at least, is getting to see what's over that next hill without it being another thing that's too difficult for me to handle anyway (hence the credit feeding).

[MathU]

Is it bad to admit that I still credit feed on occasion?

especially if it's a shump I'm playing for the first time?

Why would it be bad?

[Sumez]

Wow.



I LOVE ProGear, and I don't think I'll ever be able to reach 13 million points in it.

[Paradigm]

Well you obviously don't love it enough because if you really did LOVE it you'd be playing it all the time and it wouldn't take too long to reach 13 mil providing you're not completely incompetent.

[jonny5]

Here's a PM I got from a member.

Its another opinion.

You're aware there are over 300M points in the game, correct? How can you truly enjoy the game if you're not even getting 10% of the points out of it?

Personally, I dislike the vast majority of the shmups forum (I've talked shit about you behind your back, but I don't really dislike you, just things that you post -- live and let live, I say) for various reasons, including that almost all the people I dislike are just hipsters who "play" the games and circlejerk on this cesspool of a forum.

However, if one were to zyklon every idiot on the forum, there pretty much would be zero activity on it. This is why we just have to put things into perspective. You say that you've got 13.9M at Progear, but I consider that on about the same tier of involvement as people credit-feeding and only getting to stage 3 in Futari and stuff. I'd like you to step back and see the larger picture. As I said before, live and let live.

I got 13.X million points in Progear just by getting to the 1-5 boss (which took two days), and I consider myself a horrible player. It may seem hard or unrealistic to compare ourselves with Japanese players, but if you walk into any game center, most of the "serious" players would be extremely competent at the games they're playing. A player who considered himself "mediocre" would have an 80M Progear score. If you look at a Japanese game center and then look at the Western shooting game community-type thing, you'll notice many vast differences, even barring the obvious (that we don't have arcades). Those differences include: 1. that people actually play the game, 2. people watch each other play the game, observing and taking new, significant things away from each play, 3. people try hard, 4. l2p, 5. I'm getting sick of typing all this, so I'm just going to let your brain fill in the rest.

If you want to really get Western players into these games, figure out a way to let lots of people watch and speak to each other and get them to play consistently. It's easy to say "USTREAM.TV, IDIOT", but it's quite obvious that practically no one on the forum uses it to watch each other play. If you had two thousand people all working on the same game at once and consulting with each other in a way that mimicked game center communities in the closest ways possible (making watching other players as close to walking over to the Raiden machine as possible, talking as easy as asking the two other guys watching what just happened, etc.) and actually giving a damn about what they were doing, they'd be a pretty formidable force, too.

The fact is, nobody here gives a damn. You have the players like sikraiken, MrMonkeyMan, etc., but you don't have the spectrum in between. The tip top players are self-motivated and have the mental control to destroy with or without having other people to talk to (and when they need help, they get it), so they will destroy whether or not they have an arcade to play in. Then you slide almost immediately into the lowest of the low shit-tier players.

I haven't read the rest of the thread and I don't plan to.

Sounds familiar...hmmmmm

i swear i fu**ing hate you guys.

Here comes the Western Record Holder, who knows more about this game than anyone here will probably in their entire life but of course he is wrong. What does he know compared to a bunch of self-centered arrgonat pricks right? You saw guys playing DDP on youtube and think you know everything about the game. And of course you manage to get off the topic at page 2 already with stupid jokes, sarcasm and bitching about like everything. And it's not like this happens rarely. You guys manage to fu** up every thread that is not a score thread. Of course there are exceptions but you really ruin the threads like "CAVE's Future".


Thank you Prometheus for your detailed information.

There's all kinds out there.

What's with the influx of nutters lately?

To answer Tonk's question, I think as long as you are having fun, whether it be 1cc'ing and ripping up the score boards, or pooping up the first couple stages over and over, enjoyment can be had; it's just not necessarily going to be the same for everybody.

The simple fact that this forum is full of people who aren't necessarily the best players, but they all obviously enjoy the genre or they wouldn't be here posting, proves that skill isn't a requirement to enjoy the games.

That being said, I will agree with others when they say credit feeding 'ruins' the experience for me, but I have friends come over who are casual gamers who have no idea what they are doing in most shmups, and they just credit feed right through the whole game laughing like children and obviously having fun, even though they are dying every second and pumping in credits like there's no tomorrow.

As with anything, it all comes down to what works for the individual, and what kind of experience you are looking to get out of something.

[Deca]

Here's a PM I got from a member.

Its another opinion.

a lot of text

Honestly I can sympathize with this perspective as these are thoughts that have crossed my mind many times. Since I got into shooters I've been dying to have other people to go back and forth with and learn from, but have had almost no luck. Most of the people that claim to love shooters never play them and don't even have any ambition to actually 1cc anything. I've introduced a number of people to the genre in hopes of getting them up to a similar level to me and having someone to work on and learn games with, and while they've become legitimately interested in the games their skill is considerably lower than mine and they just don't have the ambition to improve. The players that do know what's going on and can play competently generally can't be bothered to talk/show/help out aspiring players that may be trying to overcome certain obstacles in whatever game they're playing.

Sure we have some really good ST threads (Icarus you are awesome) but even the best of them aren't going to be as helpful as having someone who really understands the game sitting next to you and telling you why you just died in the same place for the thousandth time, or demonstrate and explain something that you could just never quite put together despite having a general understanding of it.

I dunno it's just been frustrating for me. I enjoy the forums, we have a lot of good discussion here and there and it's a great source of general info, but I'd really like more direct interaction and knowledge being shared between players. I do enjoy shooters categorically, but I derive the most pleasure from games I care about by actively improving at them and reaching goals I've set for myself. I find myself getting discouraged just tackling the same games and falling short in the same ways time after time after time, especially witnessing the skill gap between myself and some other players. I know that everyone got where they are by playing and playing and playing, but without any interaction or anybody around to ask for help it can start to feel somewhat hopeless.

I do love shooters and can enjoy them quite a bit, but the more seriously I work towards a goal and see myself failing to progress despite devoting all my energy to it...it just doesn't really feel great. I feel like having players more willing to help out and encourage would go a long way.