The longevity of videogame hardware.

[Siren2011]

I don't know much about how these systems are made, or how long they are intended to be active for (undoubtedly, Microsoft purposely makes expiring RROD hardware because they know that people will buy it again, in order to multiply their profits.), but do you think that one day, Sega Saturns and Gamecubes, etc will get so old, that they'll cease to turn on, let alone function properly? If so, then that would mean generations from now, people will never be able to play old games on old consoles, anymore (though maybe emulation will be the work around for this).

Vinyl, 8 Track, and Walkmans are all undeniably still available if you search Ebay or go to a specialty store that carries them, but they have been increasingly phasing out for new hardware for some time now (though I have seen a few odd records in Best Buy the other day). I can't even imagine how many of them have already bit the dust (nor do I have any way of knowing). Unlike Apple music products, of course, they are no longer being produced (sans the minor exception mentioned a couple sentences ago). Just keep in mind that one account of "my PS2's disc laser is no longer working" eventually adds up to more...maybe I'm being paranoid. It's not like it makes any difference to me, because if these things will die out one day I won't live to see it. It's just interesting to think about. Maybe our descendants will have just as hard of a time finding a PSP as we do finding working primitive cameras from the late 1600s- early 1700s.

[xbl0x180]

Bona fide photography came into existence in the 1800s. You know one thing I wish was still produced was the i-Zone camera and its correlating sticker film.



I can still buy the camera, but there's no more film for it being manufactured. Whatever film remains has long expired


By the time my PS2 dies, I will be long dead and won't care whether I can play "Castle Of Shikigami" or not

[rapoon]

I don't know much about how these systems are made, or how long they are intended to be active for (undoubtedly, Microsoft purposely makes expiring RROD hardware because they know that people will buy it again, in order to multiply their profits.), but do you think that one day, Sega Saturns and Gamecubes, etc will get so old, that they'll cease to turn on, let alone function properly? If so, then that would mean generations from now, people will never be able to play old games on old consoles, anymore (though maybe emulation will be the work around for this).

Vinyl, 8 Track, and Walkmans are all undeniably still available if you search Ebay or go to a specialty store that carries them, but they have been increasingly phasing out for new hardware for some time now (though I have seen a few odd records in Best Buy the other day). I can't even imagine how many of them have already bit the dust (nor do I have any way of knowing). Unlike Apple music products, of course, they are no longer being produced (sans the minor exception mentioned a couple sentences ago). Just keep in mind that one account of "my PS2's disc laser is no longer working" eventually adds up to more...maybe I'm being paranoid. It's not like it makes any difference to me, because if these things will die out one day I won't live to see it. It's just interesting to think about. Maybe our descendants will have just as hard of a time finding a PSP as we do finding working primitive cameras from the late 1600s- early 1700s.

I've thought about this as well. Vinyl died then made a huge comeback because it has an entirely different sound (that's another discussion though =D). You still see a lot of old audio equipment out there that's very old and people still use it regularly. I'm less concerned about whether or not my equipment will work than I am with whether or not I will have the means to connect the older equipment. Saturns, Dreamcasts, Gamecubes, Playstations, I think there will always be someone out there who will be able to repair the equipment. My ps2 (fat) is still running. The lens could use some work but it still reads games ok. When Sony announces they will not longer produce the system, I'm going to purchase a new one and toss it in the closet. If I have a son, I'd like to bust out my Saturn one day and play some Guardian Heroes and Hyper Duel with him. =D He'd probably just make fun of me then I'd ground his ass for ragging on my video games!!

[Specineff]

My Saturn bit the dust a few months ago. Granted, it has a modchip and it seems it saw a lot of heavy use prior. I wasn't expecting it to last forever. At least the repair is easy, and it lasted WAAAAAAAY longer than many PS1, PS2 or 360 units.

[The Expanding Man]

Those with the passion can still keep cars from the early 1900's running.

[Sumez]

I've never seen a Nintendo console die. Or even have a loose connection somewhere. I guess what Sony introduced to the console market with the PS1 back in the 90's, was the concept of faulty hardware.

(undoubtedly, Microsoft purposely makes expiring RROD hardware because they know that people will buy it again, in order to multiply their profits.)

People are so quick to jump the bandwagon... The RROD has been the biggest selling problem for X360 since the beginning, and if MS really wanted it in, how come none of the models made over the last few years have it?

[Siren2011]

People are so quick to jump the bandwagon...

Chillax, dude. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not in any "bandwagon", and I even have a bias for the 360, and I'm against the PS3 and Wii (but I have good reasons for this bias, unlike loyal fanboy dogs who go by instinct alone). What I made was simply an estimation; a mere guess. Hell, my 360 which I bought in 2009 still is going strong. That doesn't necessarily mean that the same scenario goes for the majority of units, now does it? And with this day and age of technological advances, there is absolutely no excuse for the shoddy hardware being made... absolutely none. The other hypothesis is that it saved them money to make the 360 the way they did. Either way, money and personal gain would be an issue. So I don't buy the whole "Microsoft is thinking with the people's best interest in mind" mentality, which is similar to "Dear Leader Kim Jong Ill would never do anything to harm us, because he loves us" mentality. Corporations are whores. This is a fact of life.

I am also skeptical about RROD ever being a "selling problem." Hordes of Halo fanatics bought H3 on launch date with the console, while already acutely aware of its reputation for failure. They were willing to take that chance, which says a lot, really.

[Sumez]

I wasn't talking about the anti-MS bandwagon, but rather these "conspiracy theories" everyone seems to have about every hardware manufacturer. If a certain piece of hardware doesn't last very well, it's not because they want you to buy a new one once the warranty runs out (like, if your Sony TV burned out after 2 years, WHY would you get ANOTHER Sony TV?), it's because they cheaped out on the parts.

[Skykid]

Any console using a laser is more prone to die at some point than cartridge based stuff with fewer moving parts. That said, laser replacement should be catered for long into the future - at least by specialists - but it's frustrating that even the PCE CD-Rom2 units (which have quite a high failure rate in their old age) are already fairly difficult and expensive to get parts for.

I think Sony definitely introduced the idea of failing console hardware with the PS1; an issue that interestingly seems to worsen with each subsequent generation.

We're on the cusp of losing physical media altogether though and going back to fewer moving parts again, so I don't think consoles of the future will have any problem (or much in the way of collectible desirability.)

[cools]

I think you'll find that mainstream interest in playing old systems isn't that great. There'll be plenty of them available as people move on to newer things.

Hell, even among those of us that do (based on observation) - most of our interest lies in stuff that was around when we were kids, not any further back.

Digital technology has brought forth an interesting age, and it's still in it's infancy.

[neorichieb1971]

My collection of old consoles has never let me down. I had one saturn that had a graphical glitch and a PS1 with a dead laser which has now been fixed for a new one.

Thats my problems in a nutshell. Never owned a 360 (or intend to) unless its a JP model.

[Sumez]

Any console using a laser is more prone to die at some point than cartridge based stuff with fewer moving parts. That said, laser replacement should be catered for long into the future - at least by specialists - but it's frustrating that even the PCE CD-Rom2 units (which have quite a high failure rate in their old age) are already fairly difficult and expensive to get parts for.

Speaking of which - if anyone know where to get a spare rubber cog for the PCE CD-Rom2 unit, I'm VERY interested!
Surely they can't be made specially for that system, there must be other hardware out there using them, or maybe even available as spare parts...

[mrsmiley381]

I've only had a few systems go dead on me. I had a Gameboy color that stopped working for no reason, a modded PS2 whose laser could no longer keep itself on its track, and a couple Dreamcasts that broke in various ways due to various ages of love and joy spent on them. The good news is that these things can be repaired in one way or another. Hell, Dreamcasts can use lasers that have an extra pin slot, so long as you're careful. Cartridge-based systems with no moving parts are going to last the longest just because of their construction. Other stuff, not so much. The good news is that people have reversed engineered and rebuilt consoles from the ground up, like Yobo's off-brand 8 and 16-bit consoles. It wouldn't surprise me if someone was already working on a way to reproduce later consoles. I'd encourage it, so long as it was faithful hardware.

My gripe with emulation is that it's never truly the same thing. I don't think Genesis/Mega Drive hardware was ever perfectly emulated, but simply close; I heard somewhere that the technical documents for the Yamaha audio chip never materialized in full, so the audio emulation is only really close. Not to mention you lose the fun of jamming a cartridge into a console or searching through local video game stores only to find a hilariously mutilated copy of MUSHA

[Siren2011]

I can still buy the camera, but there's no more film for it being manufactured. Whatever film remains has long expired .

I can't help but wonder the same thing about Polaroids. You'd think that someone by now has discovered how they made the product, and with that knowledge make them himself out of sufficient supplies.

That I-zone reminds me of those terminals at Blockbuster which had a T.V. inside along with Pokemon Snap, that allowed you to take your best shots in the game and turn them into developable thumbnail photo stickers. Those were the days.

[xbl0x180]

People are so quick to jump the bandwagon...

Chillax, dude. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not in any "bandwagon", and I even have a bias for the 360, and I'm against the PS3 and Wii (but I have good reasons for this bias, unlike loyal fanboy dogs who go by instinct alone). What I made was simply an estimation; a mere guess. Hell, my 360 which I bought in 2009 still is going strong. That doesn't necessarily mean that the same scenario goes for the majority of units, now does it? And with this day and age of technological advances, there is absolutely no excuse for the shoddy hardware being made... absolutely none. The other hypothesis is that it saved them money to make the 360 the way they did. Either way, money and personal gain would be an issue. So I don't buy the whole "Microsoft is thinking with the people's best interest in mind" mentality, which is similar to "Dear Leader Kim Jong Ill would never do anything to harm us, because he loves us" mentality. Corporations are whores. This is a fact of life.

I am also skeptical about RROD ever being a "selling problem." Hordes of Halo fanatics bought H3 on launch date with the console, while already acutely aware of its reputation for failure. They were willing to take that chance, which says a lot, really.

Hell, I picked my screenname as a sort of tongue-in-cheek jab at the 360. As in, the console does the complete opposite of work properly. Even the 360 S model I have has had issues and that thing is less than 1 year into its warranty. Only recenly has my 1988 NES console junked out. Not bad. I also have a SNES in working condition. I had a Sega Genesis that also worked properly. Let's see: a Sega Master System, a Turbo Duo, a Sega Saturn, a N64, a Neo-Geo Pocket, a couple of Game Boys (Color and Advance), a fat PS2, a slim PS2, a coupla PSPs (1000 and 3000), a NDS Lite - all are in working condition. Check this out: we've also owned two xboxes, both of which failed, and two 360s, both of which also failed. These consoles are pieces of s**t; the games are good, though, so we [reluctantly] have to have at least one 360 around. In a perfect world, all those 360 games would be on the PS3

[louisg]

Yeah, that's the great thing about cart-based systems. In the future, I'm sure you'll be able to download your favorite old download-only games, but personally I like to own legit copies of whatever I like. But, I think doing that might eventually be impossible.

It's too bad that pretty much every CD based system is prone to breakage. My Duo is still going (knock on wood), but the only disc-based system I've ever owned which I really felt was completely sturdy is my Saturn.

[TransatlanticFoe]

As has been said, you'll have emulation to carry formats along. Fusion is perfect as far as I can tell for SMS/GG/MD (dunno about Mega CD or 32X - not got much to work on the Mega CD front) and it'll only improve for later consoles. Dolphin seems to be making massive strides in not only emulating the Wii, but upscaling it. It's not quite the same "experience" but it terms of performance it'll get to a point where everything where the hardware's not available can be emulated perfectly. Then it's a matter of keeping the emulation current on available OS/hardware!

My Master System II is still going and was purchased in about 1991/92. Optical media-based consoles are the worry, because motors eventually burn out and lasers die. But if it plays CDs/DVDs/whatever, there's going to be a laser you can use to replace it (as long as that hardware exists). The Dreamcast is the only worry I have about keeping the hardware going, because it uses a special laser for reading GD-ROMs - so as long as the spare parts are around, there will be repairs. You then have the possibility of third parties manufacturing new consoles - like with Mega Drives recently. Although the build quality is reportedly terrible, it demonstrates that the components are out there so if you care enough, then you can pretty much build your own (or keep your own going with the right parts).

[mouser]

I think you'll find that mainstream interest in playing old systems isn't that great. There'll be plenty of them available as people move on to newer things.

Hell, even among those of us that do (based on observation) - most of our interest lies in stuff that was around when we were kids, not any further back.

^ So this...I primarily buy games for old systems, but I won't go back further than NES...I find most pre-NES games unplayable.

Anyway, from my experience, the state of my systems:

• NES - Main problem used to be with blowing the cartridges to get games working, but ever since I found out about cleaning them with Windex, few problems.
• Model 1 Genesis - Still works like a charm, and I played this all the time. INCREDIBLE for an old system.
• Model 2 Sega CD - Had to replace the fuse, and learned how to solder just to do it.
• SNES - Plastic yellowed, problems with the Video Ram chip thing...games using Mode 7 graphics are virtually unplayable. Granted, I did leave it sitting in the garage.
• SNES 2 - Works. No S-Video :/
• Turbografx-16 - Works, though the controller had to be replaced.
• N64 - Works.
• Sega Master System - Works, though a little temperamental. But it looks cool!
• Sega Master System II - Works.
• PS1 - Broke. Piece of junk. Bought two of them too.
• Sega Saturn - Works great....too bad all the good shmups for it are $$$. Controller broke on me though.
• PS2 Fat - Broke.
• PS2 Slim - Works. Very noisy.
• Sega Dreamcast - Nephew broke it
• Gamecube - Works. Kinda noisy.
• Wii - I skipped the first Xbox because I didn't trust Microsoft, so leapt to Wii. Gets infrequent disc read errors - this is shortly after 1 year of owning the system, just out of warranty. Figures.
• Xbox Slim - Bought it for the sole reason of Deathsmiles, and it's supposed lack of RROD. *Fingers crossed*
• PS3 - Works. It better too, it's brand new. Then again, it IS Sony.

Personal Conclusions:
1) Sega made the best hardware. It will probably last beyond my death.
2) Nintendo makes stuff that "sort of" breaks, but will still function at 50%.
3) CD systems = limited lifespan....they're maintenance will be costly...the future for these games is emulation, except for diehard purists willing to fix them up.
4) Cartridges will last atomic wars. Though ever since starting my retrogaming binge, I find the concept of games being "collectible" and worth money absurd. They're not antiques....they're easily mass-produced and replicable. Will my Beta videocassettes be worth money too? Sigh, I hope it's just a passing fad. Personally, I'm blaming AVGN and Windex.

[BPzeBanshee]

My first Xbox started ceasing to read certain Xbox games, then all Xbox games, then DVDs at which point it was useless and I sold it to get a Game Boy Advance SP.

The SP is broken since I stood on it, the GBA that I had beforehand still works to this day but I don't use it ever.

The GameCube that I bought later on still works. The Wii I bought after that works but its power cable failed just recently and I had to get a replacement from Cash Converters since getting one direct from Ninty would've been the price of a new Wii anyway.

The second Xbox I got given to me works. The Xbox 360 I've had has a broken USB cover (that useless flap thing) and did have problems reading games after an update and a trip to my uncle's, but then started magically working again.

My uncle's Megadrive stopped working a few years ago, but considering it's a model 2 PAL that's been literally thrown against walls for a decade him and I were both amazed it lasted that long.

So yeah, I agree with mouser's personal conclusions. Sega's hardware rocks, and gets rocked cause of evil games too might I add.

[TransatlanticFoe]

[*]Wii - I skipped the first Xbox because I didn't trust Microsoft, so leapt to Wii. Gets infrequent disc read errors - this is shortly after 1 year of owning the system, just out of warranty. Figures.

Have you run a lens cleaner on it? It has been widely reported that a dirty lens stops the Wii from reading dual-layer discs (granted there are only about three games which are like this) but doesn't stop regular games from working. Likewise, a bit of filth can periodically stuff things up - my Saturn recently stopped loading Leynos 2, then would only boot Gundam Side Story 50% of the time, but worked for most games (including my other imports)... I thought the discs or the console were giving up but a quick lens clean and everything's fine and dandy.

Of course, the state of the game discs is also very important... I've had games scratched to hell which still work but a couple where a teeny scratch in the wrong place breaks it entirely.

[evil_ash_xero]

I've actually only had one system ever break down on me. And that would be the 360.

[Skykid]

I've actually only had one system ever break down on me. And that would be the 360.

I only ever had the 360 and the PS3 die on me. So much for modern technology eh.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Well regarding the early game systems, most of them were designed in an era when you beat the competition by making a more robust product.
Today both televisions and game consoles are built on two things form factor and picture quality.
Our society wants smaller and smaller electronics that produce better visuals at any cost. This means more fragile parts crammed into an overheating housing.
I'm quite convinced that with the right marketing they could sell a console made of paper if it produced eye popping graphics. The GPU would light the housing on fire of course, but like the 360 has proven gamers would just keep paying postage for replacements.

The problem is that things simply aren't built to last. My oldest systems were, they are heavy and large and some of them have wood paneling but they still work. The Fairchild Channel F works, the Atari 2600 works and also the Vectrex works. And the Amiga 500 works. The only real danger to consoles from the past is small replaceable parts going bad.

Give me big ugly consoles that last 30 years any day.

[kid aphex]

Not to throw another variable into an already complex discussion, but:

Aside from the obvious hardware failings that're going to prevent us from playing our games in the near-future, most software itself is being released into digital ecosystems whose instability is, in itself, a sort of built-in kill-switch. I'm working on an article that's attempting to document most of the modern cases of this, but in the meantime, the more egregious examples of impermanence in modern gaming:

1. Xbl indie games. Indie games only work if you're connected to the xbox live service. Not connected? You can't play them. They don't simply tie themselves to the hardware like XBL Arcade games do, they require authentication by MS servers to initialize.

2. Patching. More and more games are being released less and less complete. Recent games like Fallout: New Vegas have shipped to retail with game-crippling glitches, intimately tying their functionality to systems of online infrastructure and content delivery that're able to patch them. What does this mean? If you can't connect to online services, you don't have much to show for your $59.99 box and instructions.

[TransatlanticFoe]

The way digital releases works is the reason I'm not interested in them. Similar to Ubisoft's "you must be connected to the internet to play this game" DRM. Nintendo fouled up big time with Virtual Console, because you can't transfer your games to another console - so if you need a new Wii, you have to get on your knees and beg them to let you transfer the games. At least with most PC games you can play without an internet connection, provided you've been able to register it during install of course.

The whole aspect of "ownership" is shifting and I dread to think what'll happen if "The Cloud" really does take off. I want my games, playable by me for as long as I have something to play it on. No dependencies on someone flicking a switch and turning off the ability to access the game I paid for.

Patches aren't so bad though - someone always keeps them online.

[xbl0x180]

The way digital releases works is the reason I'm not interested in them. Similar to Ubisoft's "you must be connected to the internet to play this game" DRM. Nintendo fouled up big time with Virtual Console, because you can't transfer your games to another console - so if you need a new Wii, you have to get on your knees and beg them to let you transfer the games. At least with most PC games you can play without an internet connection, provided you've been able to register it during install of course.

The whole aspect of "ownership" is shifting and I dread to think what'll happen if "The Cloud" really does take off. I want my games, playable by me for as long as I have something to play it on. No dependencies on someone flicking a switch and turning off the ability to access the game I paid for.

Patches aren't so bad though - someone always keeps them online.

Totally. I don't do any on-line gaming, so to find out I have to download the full or part of a game is bollocks. The only way I'd pay for a download only game is if I can press it onto a disc

[ZOM]

The whole aspect of "ownership" is shifting and I dread to think what'll happen if "The Cloud" really does take off. I want my games, playable by me for as long as I have something to play it on. No dependencies on someone flicking a switch and turning off the ability to access the game I paid for.

Amen.

And it should be obvious to think this way. I really never understood how a consumer can support the shit that's going on with digital distribution, and yet there are many that do.


As for the actual hardware topic, I'm not all too worried; what seemed to be state-of-the-art hardware back then is gone down to a simple "replace that cap" or "change that voltage regulator" to have those older consoles up and running again, and while the newer gens of consoles are much more complex, the basics behind fixing things is still roughly the same (except now most of it is SMD and requires a bit more skill and/or different equipment). There will always be people in the community that are able to fix such hardware. It's all about replacing components - as long as said components are manufactured(or possible to scavenge), nothing is lost.

[kid aphex]

The whole aspect of "ownership" is shifting and I dread to think what'll happen if "The Cloud" really does take off. I want my games, playable by me for as long as I have something to play it on. No dependencies on someone flicking a switch and turning off the ability to access the game I paid for.

We're* witnessing the construction of our own prison cells and aren't doing anything about it because they look so darn comfy



*most humans, not necessarily you or i (or anyone else on this forum, for that matter)

[ZOM]

Padded cells look comfy.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

My first Xbox started ceasing to read certain Xbox games, then all Xbox games, then DVDs at which point it was useless and I sold it to get a Game Boy Advance SP.

Did anybody else catch that...