DVDO EDGE - How it performs

[BuckoA51]

Ok some more notes on the SMS converter / XRGB3 / Extron trick. I got hold of a US copy of Alex Kidd in Miracle World. It still shows the screen warping at the top of the screen when set to NTSC, but this time it also does when set to PAL too. (weird that Sonic Chaos does not yet everything else does). Again, setting AFC level to 4 clears the warping but makes the picture flicker in and out. So, not a perfect solution but for most games that area of the screen isn't used anyway.

I think any improvement on this would require some kind of hardware mod.

[fagin]

I think any improvement on this would require some kind of hardware mod.

Yeah it's called the "Flame Meister".

[BuckoA51]

I'm hopeful about the Flame Meister/Frame Miser but I'm not holding my breath, it looks more like the XRGB3's B0 mode than a B1 replacement, but we'll see.

[Hamburglar]

I have no idea and I still don't think that his transcoder works at all. As mentioned before his transcoder just seems to act as a breakout box from scart to 3x RCA....

it works, I just think my plasma does not like 240p over component. But why my Edge doesn't work with it unless I use sync, I have no idea.

It's all a moot point anyway, because I ordered a SyncStrike which means I will get RCA from SCART. Hopefully it comes soon!

[BuckoA51]

The Edge absolutely does NOT need sync for component at 240p/480i or any other resolution. Anyway let us know how you get on with the Sync Strike as I want to write up about that when I have more time.

[Hamburglar]

The Edge absolutely does NOT need sync for component at 240p/480i or any other resolution. Anyway let us know how you get on with the Sync Strike as I want to write up about that when I have more time.

Yeah I'm just now learning the green cable of component carries the sync. I have lots of systems hooked up via component, to the edge or right to my TV (Wii, PS2, original Xbox) but for some reason anything coming from scart needs the sync cable. You might be right, maybe my transcoder is defective? It only works with sync hooked up.

All this 240p/480i talk got me thinking. I just got my AV Famicom (the Japanese version of the NES2) back from being modded to output RGB and s-video, and I noticed s-video looks completely glorious. I also just learned s-video does 240p (I had no idea, I thought s-video was purely interlaced no matter what). For all intents and purposes, while hooking my modded AV Famicom up to my Edge, is there any difference between using s-video and RGB?

[BuckoA51]

You're saying S-Video looks better on your Edge than RGB? Obviously S-video is a luma/chroma signal and RGB is, well, pure RGB. I've only used S-video with the Dreamcast and the N64 to the Edge but it never looked better than RGB.

[fagin]

I also just learned s-video does 240p (I had no idea, I thought s-video was purely interlaced no matter what).

???? I thought you needed a scan convertor to do that?

[fagin]

....is there any difference between using s-video and RGB?

None at all if your name is Stevie Wonder.

[BuckoA51]

Why would you need a scan converter? It's just the same old non-interlace signal from your consoles that it's always been just going down a different wire and encoded slightly differently.

[fagin]

Why would you need a scan converter? It's just the same old non-interlace signal from your consoles that it's always been just going down a different wire and encoded slightly differently.

As Hamburglar stated.... I wasn't aware (or should I say never thought) that 240p could be passed over s-video (thought it was interlace only, i.e. 480i or 576i).

[Hamburglar]

....is there any difference between using s-video and RGB?

None at all if your name is Stevie Wonder.

I'm completely anal about picture quality (if I wasn't I wouldn't own an Edge) and I gotta be honest...I can't tell the difference between s-video and component when not relying on a 480p image. For example, if I were hooking up a DVD player and playing progressive movies, yes, I could see the difference between s-video and component. But my last CRT had s-video and component (non hi def) and I honestly could not tell the difference between the two.

I figured it's even LESS noticeable now that I'm finding out s-video does 240p. Really the s-video picture is so gorgeous on this AV Famicom. I think I am preferring it over the RGB because with RGB I'm using scart to RCA adapters. S-video is just straight up.

[fagin]

I can only comment on anything I have ever tried personally, but with what I have; comparing s-vhs to RGB and RGB beats the backside off s-vhs for clarity and sharpness..... again with anything I have tried previously.

However..... with the EDGE there is horrendous ringing, which I assume may mask the better clarity that RGB should provide. Never tried it before with the EDGE though (s-vhs) vs RGB, so can't comment on that comparison personally. If that is the case, then whilst it may be a reality, it is not a fair comparison of s-vhs vs rgb.

All imo.

You do have me curious though..... but not sure I can be arsed to drag all my stuff out to try it anytime soon though. lol

[fagin]

You're not far wrong with the EDGE as I have just tried it.... which I'm not sure is a good or bad thing tbh. As I suggested though.... I suspect this is down to the handling of 240p fullstop with the EDGE, as in the additional ringing this processor adds anyhow. It is obviously masking the quality difference somewhat. The reason I say that I'm not sure whether this is good or bad for the EDGE, is that in one hand it clearly shows how bad the quality suffers with handling 240p images.

Trying the comparison on the XRGB-3 however, showed up the differences immediately. Softer image with colour bleed, which is what I would expect between s-vhs and RGB.

Casting my mind back I have never done this comparison with current scalers and / or current displays. My previous "tongue in cheek" comment was based on previous experiences with CRT's back in the day, where the difference in quality was equally as obvious to me.

[BuckoA51]

I tried the N64 through both S-Video and RGB on the Edge and RGB was much nicer, there was much less dot-crawl on RGB.

I think I am preferring it over the RGB because with RGB I'm using scart to RCA adapters. S-video is just straight up.

That should make no difference to the quality of an RGB signal whatsoever, unless you are transcoding or using dreadfully cheap cables. Considering your transcoder might be flaky I'd reserve judgement until you get your sync strike.

But my last CRT had s-video and component (non hi def) and I honestly could not tell the difference between the two.

CRT's are different beasts to something like the DVDO Edge, they don't need to scale a picture for starters.

[Artemio]

You can use test patterns to check that out, and it clearly shows when using the Dreamcast via SVHS vs RGB, complex patterns simply can't be displayed with SVHS. I will test that with the EDGE directly tonight, and maybe post some pics vs the XRGB-3... I have yet to use the EDGE directly with 240p sources.

[Artemio]

OK, I finally built my RGB-21 to RGBHV breakout cable to plug the consoles directly to the DVDO-EDGE.

Regarding what was discussed above about SVHS and RGB, here are my pics. I need to find out my proper camera, these were taken with my phone (an E7...) so consider that while judging them.

I used the Sega Dreamcast for these

DVDO-EDGE via SVHS



DVDO-EDGE via RGB



XRGB-3 in B1 via SVHS



XRGB-3 in B1 via RGB

[Fudoh]

Artemio,

is the last picture your XRGB directly connected to your TV or through the Edge for upscaling ?

[fagin]

When you say SCART to RGBHV breakout.... do you mean RGB and composite sync or composite video sync? Or are you actually transcoding from SCART RGB to true RGBHV?

Just to be crystal clear... what RCA inputs are you specifcally using in respect to your SCART RGB connection (obviously with your breakout) on the EDGE?

[Artemio]

Artemio,

is the last picture your XRGB directly connected to your TV or through the Edge for upscaling ?

Hello Fudoh, it is directly connected to the TV. (I noticed how different my TV performs colorspace conversion when doing so).

When you say SCART to RGBHV breakout.... do you mean RGB and composite sync or composite video sync? Or are you actually transcoding from SCART RGB to true RGBHV?

Just to be crystal clear... what RCA inputs are you specifcally using in respect to your SCART RGB connection (obviously with your breakout) on the EDGE?

No transcoding, should have been more clear.. it was too late. Sorry about that. It is a Japanese RGB-21 to RGB and composite sync, I also left an RCA out for composite video sync.

I am using the RGB ones and sync 2. I tried H and V as when using the XRGB-3 as well, but of course that didn't work.


Will try getting a tripod and a decent camera to retake these.


Just for control, here is a pic taken with the same breakout cable I made, but using the VGA out from the Dreamcast and this time to RGBHV into the DVDO EDGE. Same camera, same TV.



If you are asking how it could be the same cable? Well, I made a first cable form RGB-21 to DIn 15 for use with the back RGB inputs on the XRGB, then I made another to plug into that and breakout to RCA. To connect the Dreamcast VGA to this one, I used a regular VGA cable (male to male).

[fagin]

Artemio,
If you used a composite sync from the console and fed the appropriate HSYNC RCA, I would expect your SCART to RGBs shot to be superceeded in quality via the EDGE.

BTW.... your monitor looks like it needs a demag in the top left hand corner! lol

[fagin]

We just need someone to try MVS/AES in this configuration now too to see if that gets fixed.

Just pulled my AES out of the garage so going to try this today.

[Artemio]

Artemio,
If you used a composite sync from the console and fed the appropriate HSYNC RCA, I would expect your SCART to RGBs shot to be superceeded in quality via the EDGE.

I tried just that, and it was completely unstable, it simply couldn't sync. I was able to take a picture while it flickered, and this is the result:



Here's what I get when using the SYNC in instead:

BTW.... your monitor looks like it needs a demag in the top left hand corner! lol

LOL

I also tried my AES, and the DVDO EDGE recognized the signal as 480i... tried it back with the XRGB-3 and it was recognized as proper 240p. Th cable has some problem with red which I have to check though, it is an official Neo Geo cable which I recently got, not the one I've used for years.

The DVDO could not sync using just H as input either.

[fagin]

Just tried my composite sync v1 AES with the XRGB3 to Extron to EDGE. Epic sync FAIL!!

For completness:

Stablility from my v1 AES in to the EDGE is a real problem (using strippers, composite sync direct from console, Extron RGB, XRGB-3 etc etc). However I did find that the XRGB-2+ provides a stable picture from this version of AES.... which inturn feeds a stable image to the EDGE. It also works fine sticking the XRGB-3 in B0 mode (instead of B1) and then feeding the EDGE.

Worth considering if you have a v1 AES and need to use the EDGE with it.

[Artemio]

JWorth considering if you have a v1 AES and need to use the EDGE with it.

I experimented for a while with my AES (a rev 5) and XRGB-3 in B1 mode. And the best results were using AFC at 3 or 4, after rebooting the XRGB-3. It still blacked out the EDGE sometimes, but it is one every few minutes. Very irritating, but still...

I will test my MVS systems next weekend, using the XRGB-3 via VGA in B1 to the TV I never had any issues.

[Hamburglar]

Ok, was already to do some testing to report back here but no such luck. The Sync Strike does not work at all.

I used a VGA to 5-BNC adapter, plugged it into the component2/PC input on the back of my Edge. No signal. I switched the H and V cables just to make sure that wasn't it, still no picture. I flicked the switch that says external psu/power from SCART, still no picture. I don't know if this sounds right, but it seems like the switch in the "external PSU" position is when the light comes on, and when I switch it to SCART, the red light turns off? Anyway, I even changed the jumper that says csync/hsync, still no picture.

I know it's not the VGA to BNC adapter because it works just fine with my Dreamcast. Even so, I tried the screw terminals on the Sync strike, thinking maybe the VGA port is bad, and I got no picture. I tried several different game consoles, so I know it's not the SCART cable. Is this thing defective or is there more I have to do with my DVDO Edge?

[BuckoA51]

Just tried my composite sync v1 AES with the XRGB3 to Extron to EDGE. Epic sync FAIL!!

Just to double triple check (sorry for being a pain) you were using the CSYNC trick with the Extron right? You had the COMP SYNC switch turned on and (very importantly) ONLY had the horizontal sync connector from the Extron connected into the Edge?

I experimented for a while with my AES (a rev 5) and XRGB-3 in B1 mode. And the best results were using AFC at 3 or 4, after rebooting the XRGB-3. It still blacked out the EDGE sometimes, but it is one every few minutes. Very irritating, but still...

I believe there is a very high chance this would be cured completely by setting the NTSC AFC to Auto and then using my Extron 580i CSYNC trick, as was the case with the Sega Master System converter. Even my PC Engine no longer blanks with this trick, the only problem is I cannot get rid of the screen warping AND stop it blanking at the same time.

Hamburglar, try the sync strike into the RGBC inputs on your Edge, the ones you were using with your component transcoder. It is quite possible that the SCART lead is simply not providing enough power to the unit, in which case you will need an external PSU. Oh and...

I'm completely anal about picture quality (if I wasn't I wouldn't own an Edge)

In that case you absolutely need an XRGB3 (either in tandem with the Edge or directly to your TV if it supports it) for your 240p stuff.

Here's something of interest for Edge users. I noticed tonight that if you switch between lots of consoles, sometimes the game mode on the Edge stops working and the input lag goes up to around 25ms. This is definitely true if you are using an XRGB3 in tandem with the Edge, I don't know otherwise. To avoid this, power cycle the Edge (with the remote is fine) every time you switch between consoles.

This still does not help my Sega Genesis though, which ALWAYS lags at 25ms for NTSC and 30ms for PAL and is the only console I have to switch output frame lock over to "Unlocked" (though I seem to remember my PAL Saturn needed this too). This happens when using the XRGB3 too or when just going directly into the Edge. Weird huh? I will have to dig out my Megadrive and see if that does it too.

[fagin]

Just tried my composite sync v1 AES with the XRGB3 to Extron to EDGE. Epic sync FAIL!!

Just to double triple check (sorry for being a pain) you were using the CSYNC trick with the Extron right? You had the COMP SYNC switch turned on and (very importantly) ONLY had the horizontal sync connector from the Extron connected into the Edge?

Amongst many other combinations I tried that one first... Infact I tried every combination I could on top. Must of spent nigh on 4hrs "testing" various combinations.

I gave up in the end since I don't play on the AES much and the fact that it worked fine on the XRGB-2+ (OK... taking in to account the normal sync wobble associated with such device), pissed me off even more. It was also uber sexy going straight in to the arcade crt. Enough was enough.

It may help if someone else with a v1 NEO GEO could try it as well as me.... I just ran out of life trying stuff.

Also.... why the hell does the EDGE pick up the NEO GEO as 480i when you use direct SCART to RGBs connection on the EDGE?

I also went through a phase when the EDGE was trying to decode the signal as 238p!! At that point the EDGE was up and down (syncing) like a prostitutes draws.

Just to be clear.... I had no such issues with the NEO GEO CD.

From a personally perspective (comparing B1 mode on the XRGB-3), I would rather look at a way of "fixing" the sync wobble with the XRGB-2+. That thing has no problem with any consoles I have thrown at it. Using the Extron with that did improve the "wobble" slightly (going in to the EDGE).

[Artemio]

I brought home my superGUN and a couple MVS systems, as well as my XRGB-2 (non plus).

The best results I could get were:
MVS-1F -> XRGB-2 -> (SGLC 3000) -> EDGE

I had to set the EDGE to:
1:1 Frame rate: Enabled
Output frame lock: unlocked
Input video level: video

With those, I never got any sync drops while playing Metal Slug 1 (the title screen always caused trouble with the AES) or other games. However....

When using the XRGB-2 and EDGE with the MVS, I get some kind of color cycling on the screen with Metal Slug 1.. difficult to describe. This doesn't happen with the XRGB-3 in B1 mode, but that has sync issues every now and then.

The EDGE sees the following values:
input 720x480p @ 59.22Hz
output: 60.05Hz

I must note that I never have issues when using the XRGB-2 or 3 directly to my samsung via VGA... only with the EDGE in between.

And also, I *always* get 25ms delay (from the audio delay in the EDGE) when using the new geo... either AES or MVS.

I also tested teh MVS directly via RGB-S into the EDGE, and it sees the signal as 720x480i @59.31Hz

[BuckoA51]

And also, I *always* get 25ms delay (from the audio delay in the EDGE) when using the new geo... either AES or MVS.

Yeah my Genesis does that, no idea why. If you ever get hold of an Extron 580xi do let us know if it cures the dropouts on the AES/MVS.