9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

[nZero]

C'mon ya'll where is the Xexex love?

Probably would have been easier to get people on your side before we all had to suffer through it in STGT last year

I'm surprised Crimzon Clover isn't showing up on more lists, honestly.

[Observer]

C'mon ya'll where is the Xexex love?

Probably would have been easier to get people on your side before we all had to suffer through it in STGT last year

I'm surprised Crimzon Clover isn't showing up on more lists, honestly.

Agreed, Crimzon Mother·$%$·% Clover or bust, bitches! In all seriousness, yeah, I'm surprised too but with all the console-centrism around it's to be expected. "After all, it's a doujin STG."

Liked to see Hellsinker referenced several times. I kind of see the 'usual suspects' taking the first spots though. Maybe Ketsui will go up (or down, lol) a couple of places too.

[Herr Schatten]

My votes tend not to change a lot over the years, all of the games are personal favourites, mostly. In this year's ballot, the only new entry is Hydorah, which really blew me away, despite its shortcomings. I was tempted to throw in a nostalgia vote for my old favourite Katakis (c64), but I couldn't decide which game should make room for it. In the end, the only game that had to leave was Border Down. I was playing that one a lot around the time when last year's voting was on, but since then I found that the difficulty spike at the third boss thoroughly killed all my enjoyment of the game.

Maybe next year, there might be major changes to my list, as Muchi Muchi Pork, Eschatos, and Radirgy Noa all look like candidates. I just haven't played them enough yet to really form my opinion.

[BIL]

Mine is mostly unchanged from last year's, which I was pretty satisfied with. My biggest changes are doujin-related; I moved Kamui up to #6 and gave Samidare a spot. The former I now consider on par with its professional inspirations, having spent serious time on it. The latter has been a dependably nerve-wracking score attack four years and counting, so I couldn't deny it a place amongst my favourites; replayability is a big factor for me. Top three hasn't changed. DX, Garegga and Dragon Blaze are three extremely replayable, different and hard-as-nails scoring games that I'd gladly take to a desert island.

anything I listed had to be something I'd be willing to fire up pretty much any time.

Very much my approach to these lists, and gaming in general. The dozen or so titles I've knocked off my lists over the past three have mainly been those I like, but can't regularly bring myself to play the first three stages of. Everything I listed I can reliably enjoy from the get-go. It always comes down to good level design for me - I've got to be doing something involving from the get-go, not just waiting for the early stages to end.

The other major omissions are stuff I respect but can't honestly say I'm experienced with (APB, Dangun and Ibara) - those may well reappear when I've had more time on them.

[ncp]

My ballot changed a little bit from last year. Changed it from 4 tiers (20/10/5/1) to 3 tiers (25/10/3), which doesn't really change terribly much given the explanation of the popular+weighted scores incognoscente gave. Dropped Esprade, Gradius 3, and Recca, and Futari 1.01 (while it is a favorite of mine, it has no chance of making top 25), added Perfect Cherry Blossom, DFK 1.5, DFK BL, and Gunbird 2. Futari BL moved down a tier, DOJ BL moved up a tier, Ikaruga moved up a tier.

Lots of Cave and Touhou (well, 4 is kind of a lot) on my list. I've played plenty of shmups but I find that these stand out for me as far as time spent and enjoyment go.

Here's to Mountain of Faith getting onto Top 25... I think it only got like 3 votes last year lol ;_;

[RNGmaster]

Surprised to see so many Touhou games showing up on the ballots. Not indignant, though - just not what I would have expected considering how quick so many people on the forum are to flame Touhou.

[Aliquantic]

Thanks for the detailed explanation incognescente

I'm starting to curse Cave for making so many different versions of their games and having to include both DOJ WL and BL :s And here's to hoping one of the Deathsmiles can make an appearance!

[ncp]

I'm starting to curse Cave for making so many different versions of their games and having to include both DOJ WL and BL :s And here's to hoping one of the Deathsmiles can make an appearance!

Yeah, I wish the rules were changed to include all versions of a certain game. Futari 1.01 is one of my very favorites but so few people are going to vote for it, I left it off the list.

In my opinion the only Cave games that I think merit a separate entry are Ibara BL (which I haven't played, only seen) and DFK BL, and even those should just be combined with their original titles for the sake of a poll IMO.

[BIL]

Spent the evening playing Gun.Smoke and getting shot down by ruthless popcorn. That and watching an old .inp of mine reminded me of this game's unique intesity. You truly need to outplay each and every enemy in your path, strafe and outflank intelligently or die. And it's a cowboy shooter, extra awesomeness right there pardner. Back on the list.

[incognoscente]

I never could get into Gun.Smoke, but your post is making me want to fire it up something fierce.

Yeah, I wish the rules were changed to include all versions of a certain game.
...
In my opinion the only Cave games that I think merit a separate entry are Ibara BL (which I haven't played, only seen) and DFK BL, and even those should just be combined with their original titles for the sake of a poll IMO.

While I rewrote almost every rule this year, I didn't necessarily spend enough time thinking all of them through. In the 7th Annual voting, I merged the various Futari releases together. The 8th Annual vote was Herr Schatten's baby (yes, I am so totally blaming you) and he requested they be split. I can see logic in either solution: merge all or split all, so I didn't really question it.

Since we're quite early in this poll, I'm amenable to changing things if there's sufficient demand. If I turn back the clock a year, things look like this

• Deathsmiles: merge all versions
• Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu: merge at least 1.0 and 1.5 versions. I simply don't know enough about Black Label to say.
• Dodonpachi Daioujou: merge all known versions
• Ibara: split Ibara Black Label
• Ketsui: split Ketsui Death Label, merge any others.
• Mushihimesama: merge all versions
• Mushihimesama Futari: merge all versions

Anything newer than those listed (e.g., Deathsmiles 2, Akai Katana), I know absolutely nothing about so please speak up.

For what it's worth, if it will help bring more variety to the final list and save the embarrassment of having the same game twice in a single Top 25, I'm all for changing this, at least in regards to more recent titles. For the older Konami and Capcom games, I will continue to defer to Zach's grouping as he knows far more about those games than I.

[mouser]

So much Dodonpachi...

Now I'm starting to understand all the hate for Ikaruga at the shmups forum.

I'm starting to have similar feelings about anything DDP.

*hides*

[Sapz]

First time doing this for me, a little Cave-heavy but they're all games I see myself coming back to in the future, especially for those higher up on the list.

I'd definitely be for the suggested merge of things like DOJ and DOJBL, and I'd guess that DFKBL should be kept seperate from DFK1.5, it's a very different beast and barely feels like the same game to me.

[BIL]

I never could get into Gun.Smoke, but your post is making me want to fire it up something fierce.

Cool. It has its rough edges for sure... it really needed a boss timer, extends are given a bit too frequently, and it's a bit padded out length-wise, but the intensity of outmaneuvering its absolutely relentless enemies amidst complex terrain is quite something. The limited shot range actually enhances the action, since both you and the enemies are constantly jockeying to get the other within range - nothing like nailing a gunman with a perfectly angled shot while racing through his kill zone, then doing the same to a row of window snipers in the same motion, bullets flying after you all the way.

[Aliquantic]

I'd second the recommendation to merge those games together (other than Ibara Kuro and DFKBL as mentioned), and both the Akai Katana and the Deathsmiles 2 ports include the most common Arcade release as well as their 360 modes, so it should be fine to merge them

[Erppo]

I would call combining DFK and DFKBL bad idea seeing how they play completely differently. Scoring requires doing basically the opposite things in them. Differences in other Black Labels (excluding Ibara which I never got to play) are relatively small though so listing them as single games might work better.

[trap15]

All about the Raizing. All hail YGW.
Also X-Plan, X-Plan, X-Plan.

[ncp]

I vote to merge DFK and Ibara BLs with the originals for the poll. The games have reworked scoring systems but still have the same graphics, stage layout, bosses, etc. For DFK, instead of hypering then chaining (1.5) you chain then hyper (BL), and another rank is added. Whoopty doo. In Ibara, you're kind of playing a modified version of Ibara PS2 Arrange (with faster bullets and a scratching system) which probably already counts toward regular Ibara in the poll anyway.

[Erppo]

You need to chain in DFKBL? That's news to me.

[moozooh]

Point about merging some of Cave Black Labels/Arrange modes/Special modes seconded.

Take DOJ for an example. Scoring has become somewhat more loose, rank curve has been reworked, spare lives are not taken away on the second loop. But in terms of gameplay and basic scoring strategies, barely anything has changed: you chain enemies by timer, use hypers to boost hit counts, and collect bees. It's the same in WL and BL.

On the other hand, in Ibara you pick up medals, bomb scenery, and milk bosses, controlling rank Garegga-style. In Ibara Kuro, rank can be manipulated quite easily (bringing it from zero to max and back over the course of one minute is quite feasible), you graze bullets to boost your multiplier, and cash it in. Completely different scoring systems. In DFK 1.5 and BL the difference isn't quite as pronounced, but it's still very much significant: vanilla 1.5 has one mode of play where you drive your hit chain to 10k with hypers, then continue chaining DDP-style; BL has essentially three modes of play depending on the style, built from ground up compared to 1.5 (and besides, it has a Ketsui Arrange which additionally warrants separation).

Espgaluda II Black Label should be merged with other 360-only modes (since they're all in the same package), but separated from the arcade version, since none of them plays remotely similar.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I am unable to vote due to having a limited amount of shmups under my belt. All I can hope for is to see some of my current favorites added so I can praise the voter's good taste.

[Vyxx]

I think merging some of those games together is fine, but DO NOT merge Ibara & Ibara Kuro. Those 2 games are like night and day.
Both brilliant in their own regard.

[BulletMagnet]

Put me down in favor of leaving DFK and DFKBL separate: same basic framework, but the experience itself is almost completely different. Then again, I'd argue much the same for Batsugun and Batsugun Special, and if memory serves in past years those were merged.

[hwl]

Imo all versions of the same game, no matter how different they play or feel, should be merged for simplicity's sake. There's still the option to note in the final scoreboard which portion of the votes went to the respective version of the game. Some voters would have to modify their ballots though.

[cj iwakura]

What about Silpheed Sega CD and Silpheed PS2? They are ENTIRELY different.

[ncp]

I think merging some of those games together is fine, but DO NOT merge Ibara & Ibara Kuro. Those 2 games are like night and day.
Both brilliant in their own regard.

So how exactly is this actually a problem, though? There are plenty of games that have multiple modes that play completely differently, but are merged in the poll. Like I mentioned, Ibara Arrange doesn't get its own listing and it's way closer to BL than to original Ibara. And they may play differently but are still similar in many ways. Besides, are you going to be upset if one of your favorite games scores higher than it would if it hadn't been merged with another game or something?

[hwl]

What about Silpheed Sega CD and Silpheed PS2? They are ENTIRELY different.

Those are 2 different games. They probably wouldn't rank high even if merged though.

[Iori Branford]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 70#p704470

The higher-tier titles are not just favorites of mine, but ones I can confidently recommend to the larger gaming public based on

• Presentation. UI and audio/visual design are high in quality, bringing you into the game, but also conducive to gameplay. Garegga's camobullets held it just short of the top.
• Learning curve. The player can quickly grasp at least the basic functions of the game. Akai Katana would have been docked on this point (it would've made the list but I've only played the demo).
• Difficulty curve. The game doesn't demand too much too early. Ketsui stumbled here, filling the whole screen twice before you ever see a boss. Rank-based games are tough sells also, unless they rank up only for exceptionally high score/skill and not for common-sense behavior like grabbing items.

[moozooh]

Like I mentioned, Ibara Arrange doesn't get its own listing and it's way closer to BL than to original Ibara. And they may play differently but are still similar in many ways.

Well, it's just that Ibara Arrange never had a stand-alone release — it's a bonus feature. Espgaluda II Black Label, on the other hand, had a standalone release on the 360 (which was titled Espgaluda II Black Label), on which the original arcade mode was a bonus feature. DFK v1.51 was made on PCB, but never released commercially aside from the v1.5 disc, on which it also was a bonus feature.

[KennyMan666]

The list of what was allowed/not allowed made me curious, as I really don't consider stuff like Robotron, Ikari Warriors and Every Extend to be shmups, and allowing those but not allowing rail shooters confused me even more.

In particular, the inclusion of (ahem) "manually advancing multi-directional shooters" made me wonder - I don't consider it a shmup, so I'd never include it on my list, though I'd consider it to be more of a shmup than, say, Shock Troopers - on what side of the acceptance line would The Red Star land, according to these rules?

Also, +1 for merging DOJ/DOJBL, and such. Except for the ones where it really becomes a different game.

Now to figure out what games I've forgotten about for my list. Or, more accurately, to figure out which ones of the so far non-included games should be getting the final spots.

[incognoscente]

I'd never include it on my list, though ... on what side of the acceptance line would The Red Star land, according to these rules?

It would fall squarely in the category of don't waste my time asking questions about things you're not going to vote for.