Does anyone occasionally get burned out with the STG genre?

[Deca]

a fun and easy to pick up scoring system

Cave > Takumi

Yeah what could be more intuitive than Galuda 2, or Futari Maniac, or Progear, or Ketsui. While some of the games may have an easy to understand underlying concept, putting it together and actually scoring well can be extremely confusing. I think the single worst thing about Cave games is how universally they punish bomb use and deaths. Using bombs? Can't score well. Maybe you're just playing for survival, die with bombs in stock trying to optimize use? Lose all your bombs. Raizing worked around this amazingly, making a game that's more fun to play thanks to not constantly being terrified you might bump the bomb button and not making you want to restart every time you die. The balance between scenery bombing and medalling from aerial targets keeps gameplay engaging and active the whole time, especially once you add in aura kills and whatnot in games where that applies. Very basic score mechanics that are non-intrusive enough for a beginner to easily ignore and deep enough to keep an experienced player happy for a long time.

Cave games also tend towards really drawn out stages, especially the newer ones. Sometimes they're sufficiently varied and interesting, other times they just force you to put up with a few really annoying patterns for a really long time. Despite being my favorite Cave game, Futari may be the biggest culprit of this. While the stages may have some cool parts, there's always a lot of boring filler that makes practice tedious. Psikyo did a pretty good job of avoiding this, giving you short stages that sometimes feel like boss fights themselves. I very seldom find myself annoyed or bored halfway through a stage in Strikers 3 or Gunbird 2.

Raizing and Psikyo > Takumi > Cave

[Special World]

a fun and easy to pick up scoring system

Cave > Takumi

Yeah what could be more intuitive than Galuda 2, or Futari Maniac, or Progear, or Ketsui. While some of the games may have an easy to understand underlying concept, putting it together and actually scoring well can be extremely confusing. I think the single worst thing about Cave games is how universally they punish bomb use and deaths. Using bombs? Can't score well. Maybe you're just playing for survival, die with bombs in stock trying to optimize use? Lose all your bombs. Raizing worked around this amazingly, making a game that's more fun to play thanks to not constantly being terrified you might bump the bomb button and not making you want to restart every time you die. The balance between scenery bombing and medalling from aerial targets keeps gameplay engaging and active the whole time, especially once you add in aura kills and whatnot in games where that applies. Very basic score mechanics that are non-intrusive enough for a beginner to easily ignore and deep enough to keep an experienced player happy for a long time.

Cave games also tend towards really drawn out stages, especially the newer ones. Sometimes they're sufficiently varied and interesting, other times they just force you to put up with a few really annoying patterns for a really long time. Despite being my favorite Cave game, Futari may be the biggest culprit of this. While the stages may have some cool parts, there's always a lot of boring filler that makes practice tedious. Psikyo did a pretty good job of avoiding this, giving you short stages that sometimes feel like boss fights themselves. I very seldom find myself annoyed or bored halfway through a stage in Strikers 3 or Gunbird 2.

Raizing and Psikyo > Takumi > Cave

A lot of Cave's scoring systems are perfectly intuitive. Dodonpachi and DOJ, Ketsui, and Futari Original for example. I'd argue that those games are a shitload more intuitive than any Raizing game I've played (not that I've played a ton). Suiciding on purpose? That's the most unintuitive thing I've ever heard. Bakraid's use of suicides and bombs is absolutely insane. At least with Cave you can see what is getting you point items; in a couple of Raizing games you have to look up codes and do little button combo tricks that alter gameplay. I love some of those games, but man, they're probably the least intuitive shooters I've ever played.

And then there's Cave's Raizing-esque Yagawa games to tide you over. Muchi Muchi Pork certainly doesn't punish bomb usage and deaths.

[Kollision]

Takumi > Cave > Psikyo > Raizing

[Deca]

A lot of Cave's scoring systems are perfectly intuitive. Dodonpachi and DOJ, Ketsui, and Futari Original for example. I'd argue that those games are a shitload more intuitive than any Raizing game I've played (not that I've played a ton). Suiciding on purpose? That's the most unintuitive thing I've ever heard. Bakraid's use of suicides and bombs is absolutely insane. At least with Cave you can see what is getting you point items; in a couple of Raizing games you have to look up codes and do little button combo tricks that alter gameplay. I love some of those games, but man, they're probably the least intuitive shooters I've ever played.

And then there's Cave's Raizing-esque Yagawa games to tide you over. Muchi Muchi Pork certainly doesn't punish bomb usage and deaths.

DDP, DOJ, and Futari original are definitely intuitive, that's why I didn't mention any of them. Guwange is pretty intuitive as well, albeit brutally unforgiving. Ketsui is still intuitive, though less so than the others, but actually putting together a solid scoring run using the system can be a bit confusing/hard to grasp. Add to this the fact that a ton of players are still unaware the laser does no damage past a certain distance. A game that basically requires an all out offensive, close range playstyle is not something I would call intuitive or beginner friendly.

Rank control is completely beside scoring, and a new player is going to be OK without worrying about it too much up to a point. Batrider and Bakraid normal courses are very 1ccable without even the slightest amount of rank management. The little tricks for bullet color or firing rate and all that are also something you'd only need to worry about once you have a better understanding of the game, to a new player going in with zero knowledge the games are very straightforward and there isn't much going on, like huge numbers exploding everywhere or giant gems of various types seemingly randomly appearing all over the place (not that I don't love the aesthetics of such things), that's going to confuse the player right off the bat. They just have enemies to shoot, bullets to dodge, and occasional items to pick up.

I definitely exempt Bakraid from any claims of straightforwardness on the part of Raizing games, as that game is definitely an outlier in their library. I still don't fully understand the chaining system or how to play effectively, and honestly don't have any desire to in the immediate future. That said it's still a fun game to play for survival, and a new player could get through Normal without even realizing there was any sort of abstract scoring system at all.

I am more or less cool with MMP, but honestly think of it more as a Raizing game than Cave. It still (to my disappointment) has the Cave look to it, and there's definite Cave influence in the design and gameplay, but at its core it sticks out from the rest of their library. Ibara and PS do as well, but those are a whole different thing entirely.

[Special World]

I disagree with what you're saying, because you're exempting rank control, suicide, and proper bomb usage from Raizing games on the premise that the beginner won't need to worry about them, when any beginner could just pick up (most) Cave games and just shoot things, dodge bullets, and admire the occasional shinies. For many Cave games, a new player could simply ignore scoring and survive as long as they could. If a beginner ignores rank control in a Raizing game, however, they are likely to get annihilated because they've picked up every powerup and medal they saw, and raised the rank to extremely non-beginner-friendly levels. I don't really think rank control is completely beside scoring anyhow, as I've heard things like "okay, you can milk this boss, but then you commit suicide or you're fucked later on." I might be overgeneralizing or thinking more of Cave-Raizing games, though.

I just feel that you're making arbitrary distinctions to make your point, and aren't clearly delineating whether you mean that Raizing is good for beginner scoring or beginner survival. Also, you're saying "Yeah, you can score in Raizing games as a beginner, without knowing all those things," while you don't allow for the fact that you can score in most Cave games without knowing the systems inside and out. A beginner could 1CC or play a Cave game for score without knowing the exact values of all the scoring items, or in-depth boss strategies. They can play Deathsmiles for score or 1CC without knowing that you're supposed to let crowns break up into skulls in powerup mode. I find it hard to believe that any player of any genre will immediately or even intermediately grasp the scoring and system control potential of constantly committing suicide, however. Killing your player character is the most unintuitive videogame action ever devised.

I love both companies, I just don't feel that Cave is any less intuitive than Raizing. As far as Takumi goes though, I will agree that Mars Matrix is pretty damned intuitive. And Psikyo is Psikyo. I've never played their games for score as they were too damned tough for me, but I'd imagine it's a pretty straightforward affair.

ED: Also, I don't find that Muchi Muchi Pork has a Cave look to it at all :\

The dingy cartoon aesthetic doesn't really fit with any Cave (or Raizing, I guess) aesthetic, and there's those fat (!) green (!!!) rocket-shaped bullets everywhere. The bosses maybe have some sort of Ketsui similarities and the dinginess reminds me only very tangentially of DOJ, but the goofy cute-em-up style is completely at odds with the entire feel of those games and Cave's other games in general.

[Deca]

You know...I'm going to be completely honest here and say I think I got sidetracked at some point and don't even fully know what I'm getting at at this point.

I feel that newer Cave games have pretty unintuitive scoring systems Galuda2 (though I guess that's kind of pushing "new" at this point) is definitely the most blatant offender, though I do enjoy that system quite a bit. I've put a fair amount of time into that game and still have no idea what the Kakusei Over level has to do with anything. DFK also struck me as pretty unintuitive...a lot of the newer games just aren't things I can fully understand without going out of my way to read about them.

I suppose Raizing just feels more intuitive to me because I'm more used to it, but looking back I remember being confused about a lot of things. I just feel like the overall flow of gameplay for score attack is more straightforward with a Raizing game: chain medals, bomb scenery, destroy all parts of boss before killing it. Sure there's more beyond that to get into really scoring well, but it's not near as abstract as having to manage all these different modes or know the right areas to try to cash in a multiplier and all that.

Rank control is definitely necessary at all times in Garegga, but as I said, with Batrider and Bakraid you can get through the normal courses without being obliterated without any sort of rank control at all, no suicides necessary.

But yeah, I guess overall Raizing isn't much better than Cave regarding straightforward-ness, especially when compared to Takumi or Psikyo.


The point I was trying to make with beginner friendliness has more to do with the presentation of the scoring system. There are no crazy visual effects with Raizing games to let you know when you're getting a bunch of points, it just sort of happens. In Cave games there are VERY flashy, ridiculous visual cues to go with the scoring. While this is my personal favorite aspect of Cave games, I feel it makes it much harder to jump into with no knowledge and fully enjoy the game. Maybe it's just me, but when I see something like that happening it will drive me crazy until I know exactly what's causing it, and trying to figure it out while playing will significantly distract me from gameplay. Once I totally understand the system it's not a big deal and I find the visual cues to be really rewarding (especially when accompanied by excessive slowdown), but while I'm trying to figure it out I'll get extremely frustrated because I really dislike not knowing what I'm doing.

[Special World]

I can agree with you on all of that.

Cave is getting absolutely ludicrous with their scoring systems, and IMO the games are suffering a little bit for it. Galuda II I like to an extent; it's a great game, but the scoring makes it feel really mechanical and sterile. The scoring is quite fluid in a lot of ways, but that's not actually how it feels when I'm playing the game. And then there's DFK, which I refuse to play when there's so many other Cave games available. Black Label is a little better, but equally cryptic.

I think a lot of beginners will not care about scoring well and getting shinies. If they do, they'll just go to an online forum and get the scoop. I know how impossible it is for a scorehound to ignore Cave's visual scoring, though. I absolutely cannot play Ketsui for survival, despite the fact that I'm terrible.

I need 5 chips.

[Deca]

Exactly. I really really enjoy most of Ketsui's patterns, I find them very unique and somewhat refreshing. My first exposure to the game was Death Label, and after that I couldn't wait to play the game proper. However, once I got at it and saw what the actual scoring system was like, it completely prevented me from playing for survival. My first couple credits saw me through to the 5th stage once or twice, but as soon as I understood the scoring system I had trouble making it past the second. Fantastic game ruined by a really difficult to ignore scoring system.

[BLU]

Another way to prevent these slumps would be to set realistic goals for yourself (aka not resetting for the thousandth time).

[Special World]

Well, I don't think it's ruined at all :\

It's not my favorite Cave scoring system, but I'd definitely rather have it in there than completely omitted.

It does lead to occasional, embarrassing deaths on the first level, though, and I rarely make it to stage 4.

I am butts at Ketsui.

I also agree about reset-itis. It is a bad way to play, and only leads to frustration. I still do it a lot, though :\

[Deca]

OK ruined is a pretty strong term to use, but I did notice I enjoyed the game quite a bit more when I tried X-Mode on the port.

I feel the game would be a lot more enjoyable if it allowed you to hang back a little more between kicking off chains, but it seems to want you to be within punching range of enemies at all times.

[emphatic]

I also agree about reset-itis. It is a bad way to play, and only leads to frustration. I still do it a lot, though :\

Just draw a line after stage 1. When you start to get in the ballpark you're aiming at for that stage, don't restart unless you get killed in stage 1.

[Mortificator]

Of course there's one step above this but it's pretty extreme.

What step would that be? Losing one life and ceasing to play again forever? lol. I doubt even the great icycalm himself (or Recap) would follow such a rule. But you're right, it is pretty damn extreme.

[Special World]

OK ruined is a pretty strong term to use, but I did notice I enjoyed the game quite a bit more when I tried X-Mode on the port.

I feel the game would be a lot more enjoyable if it allowed you to hang back a little more between kicking off chains, but it seems to want you to be within punching range of enemies at all times.

At this point, I feel like Futari Black Label Original has perfected proximity scoring, and any future game that tries it is barking up the wrong tree. Ketsui did it well before Futari though, and that's not gonna stop me from playing it.

My problem with the Ketsui scoring system is that I never seem to do any better. I always get the same scores on the first level, and on later levels I only seem to get new high scores if I've gotten further than usual. This is probably (definitely) just me not being good enough, though. I need to start downloading replays off of XBL for all of Cave's games.

I also agree about reset-itis. It is a bad way to play, and only leads to frustration. I still do it a lot, though :\

Just draw a line after stage 1. When you start to get in the ballpark you're aiming at for that stage, don't restart unless you get killed in stage 1.

Agreed. Honestly, I think it's maybe best for me to just never reset at all. Sometimes I'm doing terrible, and then since the pressure's off I pull off some crazy business.

[chempop]

I've put a fair amount of time into that game and still have no idea what the Kakusei Over level has to do with anything

During over mode (fast red bullets) a ring-meter around you character will fill (by not shooting it increases faster). There are 4 levels to this iirc, and each level will increase the speed of enemy bullets. When you return to normal mode you will earn extra Green Gems based on your Over-level. Some players will start the game by immediately draining there gems and maxing out the Over-meter, this works the same way in the first Galuda except for one BIG difference - if you loose a life in Galuda2 your over-level does NOT reset like it did in the original Galuda. Also, some patterns are actually easier to dodge in over-mode. Oh, and something about your character moving faster when it's maxed I think, not sure though. Hope that helps.

[Deca]

I've put a fair amount of time into that game and still have no idea what the Kakusei Over level has to do with anything

During over mode (fast red bullets) a ring-meter around you character will fill (by not shooting it increases faster). There are 4 levels to this iirc, and each level will increase the speed of enemy bullets. When you return to normal mode you will earn extra Green Gems based on your Over-level. Some players will start the game by immediately draining there gems and maxing out the Over-meter, this works the same way in the first Galuda except for one BIG difference - if you loose a life in Galuda2 your over-level does NOT reset like it did in the original Galuda. Also, some patterns are actually easier to dodge in over-mode. Oh, and something about your character moving faster when it's maxed I think, not sure though. Hope that helps.

That helps quite a bit actually, never knew what impact it actually had outside of over-mode. Thank you!

[Ruldra]

Takumi > Cave > Psikyo > Raizing

Toaplan > All

[austere]

Mortificator,

Nice poster dude. Yeah, basically anything with permanent real life consequences. There are things worth than death after all and I can't quantify what they would be for each individual.

[RNGmaster]

Mortificator,

Nice poster dude. Yeah, basically anything with permanent real life consequences. There are things worth than death after all and I can't quantify what they would be for each individual.

That's an actual movie, believe it or not.

[Siren2011]

That's an actual movie, believe it or not.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

[austere]

Could have at least pointed out my grammatical error. But yes, I looked it up, it doesn't seem like an interesting movie.

[Snake]

On the topic of different methods of mastering the games, im starting to think that I shouldnt be grinding as much. In the past I would just pratice one stage over and over again so it wasnt my general shmupping skills, rather my memory and muscle memory. Ofc I still think praticing is usefull as an aid to commit the most major parts of each stage to memory like cheap death spots or other bits that give me alot of trouble. But not the daily 3 hour pratice sessions I would do while trying to 1CC / 1loop DDP. Instead maybe I should go back to playing full runs in rather short sessions. Hopefully I wont have any more annoying situations like I did with Mars matrix, where ild practiced every stage and could play each individual stage at a competant level. But when it came to the full runs I couldnt piece it all together.

Really agree with you here. This was what I found when I tried practicing with save states.

[TLB]

Takumi > Cave > Psikyo > Raizing

Toaplan > All

8)

G.rev > Cave (Dangun Feveron and Ibara) > Raizing > Toaplan = Psikyo > Cave (the rest of their awful shit) > Takumi

Taito goes in there somewhere because Darius.

eight parentheses

[Cyarc]

I got into the genre around 2006 and fell in love. It was pretty much all I played for 2 years. I never spent a whole bunch of time with just one game, but with MAME, Dreamcast, Saturn and a PS2 I tried out any and all shmups I could get my hands on. It was alot of fun because it was always a new experience and it never felt like a chore. Towards the end of those 2 years I settled on Cave games as my favorites and now whenever I do play a shooter, it is always a cave game.

I haven’t played all that much in the last couple of years. I still play a ton of games though, especially since I got a PS3. I think I beat in excess of over 30 games last year. I think this quote hits the nail on the head for me.

I think its all too easy for gamers to be always chasing the next big thing, playing one game intensly so they can finish it off and move onto the next must play game.

I would get a game, beat it and move on to the next... rinse and repeat. I did have resurgence this winter when Dodonpachi DOJ and Ketsui came out on MAME; I also got the iPhone versions of Dodonapchi DFK and ESPGaluda II during that time. The problem is that now when I play, I play for score or to get further in a stage. So I stick to playing one game over and over again. It feels like work, it’s frustrating when I die, I restart alot, and I end up getting bored when I play the 1st stage for the 15th time in a day. So now I have sort of fell off the train again. Playing shmups for fun is my favorite way to play. It’s when I start to play them the way they are meant to be played (for score/playing the same game over and over again) that I end up getting bummed out and move onto something else. I know that sounds very silly, but it’s just the way it is for me.

[cj iwakura]

I think I have the opposite problem. I'm too accustomed to STGs, and now I suck at hori shmups like Gradius and Darius to the point that I feel like I shouldn't bother.

[Blackbird]

I think its all too easy for gamers to be always chasing the next big thing, playing one game intensly so they can finish it off and move onto the next must play game.

Interesting. Maybe it's because I've always been of humble means, but I rarely gotten games frequently enough that I could just power through one and move on immediately after.

I'll purchase games knowing that I'm not going to get another for a very long time, so I tend to get the kind of games that reward time invested in them. I pretty much play the hell out of my games until I completely exhaust my interest in them or the cartridge wears out =P.

[Subterranean Sun]

my opinion > your opinion

[Casey120]

Variety is the spice of life.

This ,

I only played my cabs once last week and spend most of my gaming time playing Crisys 2 on the 360.

[Horacechin]

I don't only play shmups when i get bored of shmups i play mostly fighters like KOF and SF and alternate between the genres.

[Treasurance]

currently SLG>STG