Louis CK unintentionally sums up my feelings about Steam

[Mischief Maker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQtWSHmF0DI

This is why I still haven't bought Jamestown.

[Elixir]

How does this relate to Steam, though?

[Chacranajxy]

It doesn't.

And I don't want the OP to give us a reason, because the logic will probably melt my mind and send my brain pouring out my ears.

[ncp]

Little boy unintentionally sums up my feelings about this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7RgN9ijwE4

[Zeether]

It's not 2003 anymore.

[drauch]

This fucking sucks.

[neorichieb1971]

I dont know how steam works but I would imagine its about Steam knowing what you buy, when you buy it. Your CC details, your IP address and everything. It gives them data how quickly you moved from game to game.

Basically, the tools we use today are monitoring us on a personal level. The only data they got in 1985 with the NES is how many copies of each game sold.

Its these tools that help create wave after wave of the same genres. I would actually like to hear if devs actually like the games they make (without bias of course). If I worked on Call of Duty for 5 years i'd want a 50 year holiday lol.

[dcharlie]

I dont know how steam works but I would imagine its about Steam knowing what you buy, when you buy it. Your CC details, your IP address and everything. It gives them data how quickly you moved from game to game.

I've thought about other evil systems but Steam has never crossed my mind as an evil one.

Buy once - play on any of your hardware? Buy the game once, own it forever (albeit digitally) ? No disk based verifications?
Bring on the future!

Just resurrected my dead PC and i'm able to just install and click away and install* everything i've ever bought from the store




* - lol, not this week! fecking Steam Sales!!

[Jockel]

Little boy unintentionally sums up my feelings about this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7RgN9ijwE4

This should be in the "OMG DUDE I HAD THE MOST FUCKED UP DREAM AND I AM AN ANNOYING ATTENTION WHORE" thread.

[Ex-Cyber]

Buy the game once, own it forever (albeit digitally) ?

Valve disagrees:

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

2. In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety or may terminate or cancel only a portion of the Subscription (e.g., access to the software via Steam) and Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide access (for a limited period of time) to the download of a stand-alone version of the software and content associated with such one-time purchase.

[ncp]

If you read the EULA for pretty much ANYTHING you'll find that kind of stuff. The entire point of an EULA is usually "in case we fuck up, here's this document you agreed to saying that you shouldn't sue us!".

[Ex-Cyber]

That's not just "in case we fuck up". They're flat-out claiming the authority to nuke your account, disable access to what you "bought", and they don't have to provide you with offline installers if they don't feel like it. EULAs typically do have lots of scary wording, but in a practical sense most of them are just text in a dialog box. This one is coupled to the very real ability of the company to screw you over.

Some people might be fine with this. Valve and Steam will probably be around for at least a few more years, the fear of a PR disaster probably minimizes the risk of any given user actually being screwed over, and losing access to some video games is not the end of the world. Still, you don't really own anything. It's more like an indefinite rental.

[ncp]

It's most likely there in case Steam has to shut down, so that everyone can't go all "BUT YOU HAVE MY GAMES!!!!". The prospect of losing these games if Steam died would suck, but this probably wouldn't be the case anyway (seeing as you can play Steam games in "offline mode", and I mean this literally, you can unplug your internet connection and play games that you have on Steam).

[Ex-Cyber]

Well, it's not just for a shutdown, since they talk about selectively disabling games. I suppose that could be intended for yanking games that turn out to not be properly licensed by the publisher, a la the Kindle 1984 and Animal Farm scandal a little while ago. They'd probably intend to compensate customers for it without necessarily obligating themselves to do so, but they're still able to yank the games.

From what I've heard of offline mode, it's not much of a solution unless you know in advance that you won't be able to connect to Steam. I've never tried it (I think I only ever tried to install Steam under Wine once to see whether it worked), but apparently you can't enable offline mode for a game without being online and signed in.

[ncp]

You don't need to "enable" offline mode, at least not on any of the games I have. My computer is currently in another room, not connected to internet at all, and I can play any Steam game I want on it.

edit: There may well be some sort of mechanic to stop users from logging into a friend's account, downloading all their games, then playing them in offline mode. If there is, though, I don't know what it is, because for me all I have to do is open Steam and click "start in offline mode" when it tells me there's no internet connection.

[Ex-Cyber]

I've seen some conflicting information on it (maybe the policy has changed recently, or differs between retail and Steam purchases, or some people are trying to play games without an account at all?), but it seems that games will not necessarily work if you've never enabled Offline Mode while signed in. The support page on it says:

Please note that you must connect to the Steam Network and test each of the games you would like to use in Offline Mode at least once to set up your account and configure Offline Mode on your machine.

There's apparently also some kind of mechanism that tries to stop people from using Offline Mode with outdated Steam or game files. I saw a couple of reports saying that Offline Mode refused to work until the Internet connection was actually disabled, so I wonder whether it tries to check for updates despite being "offline".

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I personally hate having to provide my personal data so that I can use or buy something. But this is how the world is nowadays its just something we have to live with.

Given the likes of MS (which ive heard that they share all your personal data with their partners and say its your responsibility for safeguarding it), Google, Facebook and all the other businesses online, I regard Steam as the best of a bad bunch. For example several ppl online have commented that EA's new Origin DD site has a pretty shitty clause is their TOS.

http://gotgame.com/2011/06/15/ea-origin ... -one-year/

somebody on Dtoid posted this which is supposed to be part of the TOS: "If you have not used your Entitlements or Account for twenty four (24) months or more and your Account has associated Entitlements, your Entitlements will expire and your Account may be cancelled for non-use." If no idea if other DD stores have similar things in their TOS although it is common in MMOs.

As for steam they are OK 99% of the time, although i have heard rumours that their customer service and feedback to users is dire. Like CC companies they have safeguards in place to protect you from hackers which includes monitoring for suspicious activity, so if you do something out of the ordinary like log on from another IP address then valve may block your account until you can prove its yours. This can be done though CC info or providing them the code from any boxed steam game you have (thats why its important to keep hold of your boxed games)

Having all your games online does worry me, thats why I prefer to buy boxed for any game I think i might be still playing a decade later. I dont give a fuck about most games that ive payed under £10 for but I intend to spread my games out to different steam accounts and DD sites in the future. Ive 30-40 steam games on my main account but some gamers have 200-500 games tied to a single account.

[honorless]

I can understand not trusting Steam. There are great reasons not to. But the logic in the OP is fucked. Yeah, I suppose you could go through the trouble of signing up for a public profile on Steam and putting personally-identifiable information on it. But why would you do that when you can just...not do that?

If the issue is that Steam has an account-based storefront, I'm not sure why you're willing to buy anything through Gamersgate, or use PayPal (yikes!) to do business with rancor.

Basically, the tools we use today are monitoring us on a personal level.

The only way to avoid this is not to play games (...or do anything else) online, ever. It's kind of naiive to think that Sony and Microsoft aren't gathering data from your console every time you connect to XBL or PSN. Mass Effect 2's only DRM at retail was a CD check, but EA basically watched you play through the game unless you opted out or unplugged your ethernet cable. It goes on.

I'd rank Steam on the lesser end of online store evils; at least they give you the option to opt out of storing any of your financial information. Just keep in mind that whatever you purchase may turn into an extended rental. I'm pretty okay with paying $5 or less for that.

[rancor]

I'm not sure why you're willing to buy anything through Gamersgate, or use PayPal (yikes!) to do business with rancor.

I'm surprised at the number of people who, for whatever reason, choose to send me money orders rather than use paypal. Haven't had a personal check yet.. haha.

[Ex-Cyber]

I did buy Braid (DRM-free version) through Gamersgate and regret it a bit as they are rather lax on account security (or at least they were when I opened my account). They sent me my password in an email, which

1) is incredibly stupid on its face (unless the email itself is encrypted, which it wasn't), and

2) shouldn't be possible in the first place because storing passwords in plaintext at all is idiotic.

[Mischief Maker]

To me, Cloudphobia has the perfect method for selling an indie game, shmup or otherwise. You send a paypal payment to the developer, you get a link to DL the installation exe. DONE. The developer gets maximum money for his product per sale, at the price he wants, I get a file I can burn onto a disk and it's mine forever. I can even run this windows program on my windows machine without using a frontend! Not even a frontend in "offline mode."

Back when World of Goo was nearing release, I was following the development blog and was happy when the developers announced they'd be distributing their game in the form of a DRM-free install file. However, the comments section of that post was crawling with people saying, "can you PLEASE put the game on Steam???" "If I buy now, will I get a Steam code once you're released on Steam?" "Oh please, please put the game on Steeeeeeem!"

THAT's the connection to the Louis CK clip. Why is it whenever a game is about to come out in the best possible form for the customer, people start begging developers to give them the inferior option? Just because it's popular? What is the advantage to you, the customer of running your games through steam when the DRM-free option is available?

[Observer]

To me, Cloudphobia has the perfect method for selling an indie game, shmup or otherwise. You send a paypal payment to the developer, you get a link to DL the installation exe. DONE. The developer gets maximum money for his product per sale, at the price he wants, I get a file I can burn onto a disk and it's mine forever. I can even run this windows program on my windows machine without using a frontend! Not even a frontend in "offline mode."

Back when World of Goo was nearing release, I was following the development blog and was happy when the developers announced they'd be distributing their game in the form of a DRM-free install file. However, the comments section of that post was crawling with people saying, "can you PLEASE put the game on Steam???" "If I buy now, will I get a Steam code once you're released on Steam?" "Oh please, please put the game on Steeeeeeem!"

THAT's the connection to the Louis CK clip. Why is it whenever a game is about to come out in the best possible form for the customer, people start begging developers to give them the inferior option? Just because it's popular? What is the advantage to you, the customer of running your games through steam when the DRM-free option is available?

Console mentality I guess?

I mean, you have Xbox Live, PSN and the like crawling in people's minds so they try to consolise your PC by doing so. The advantage is that the dev can still release the game in any way he wants. Recettear has a DRM free version too. Jamestown via Gamersgate or Direct2Drive shouldn't give you a DRM free one or it pulls a "Zeit2" and gives you a Steam code?

Astroport sells via DLsite and I think that one also hands out a DRM free copy. Same for Melonbooks dojin broadband service. So that's why I like PC. Give the crowd their Steam release if they want that and keep a friends list and shit. But don't cut on the freedom of choice and stuff.

[honorless]

What is the advantage to you, the customer of running your games through steam when the DRM-free option is available?

• Organization of your game library.
• Automatic game/driver updates.
• Integrated leaderboards.
• Achievements.
• Easy download/installation.
• Discounts of up to 90%.
• Et cetera.

This should be obvious, but no end user requests Steam integration because they have a hard-on for invasive DRM. They do it because Steam offers features that getting a zip file via e-mail does not. Maybe those features are not important enough to you to offset the tradeoffs, or you see them as drawbacks. That does not make said features any less useful or important to People Who Are Not Mischief Maker.

...I'm not sure why you posted that anecdote about World of Goo, since the requests for a Steam version didn't stop 2D Boy from releasing a "100% Region Free & DRM Free :-)" version. In fact, I don't know of any instances where a DRM-free release has been supplanted by a Steam-exclusive release. If you could present one, your objection to other people asking for Steam integration would at least have firmer ground to stand on than "I am incapable of imagining any merit in it—so it must be valueless, and anyone who wants it is a simpleton who should be ignored."

As a footnote, Nicholas Vining explains some of the difficulties involved in taking direct payments better than I could, so you might want to read what he has to say about the matter.

[dcharlie]

the biggest thing about Steam is the centralisation especially when the platform (i.e. PC) is ever changing.

I've had four new PC/Mac platforms in the past few years - all i have to do is install Steam and then click redownload and i'm back to where i was with my games library. No rooting around for individual installs etc. It doesn't sound like something huge but it really is a big thing.

[Mischief Maker]

Jamestown via Gamersgate or Direct2Drive shouldn't give you a DRM free one or it pulls a "Zeit2" and gives you a Steam code?

It's the steam code one. This, by the way, is why I'm so irritated with Steam fanatics, they create a market incentive for developers to go Steam-exclusive.

This should be obvious, but no end user requests Steam integration because they have a hard-on for invasive DRM. They do it because Steam offers features that getting a zip file via e-mail does not. Maybe those features are not important enough to you to offset the tradeoffs, or you see them as drawbacks. That does not make said features any less useful or important to People Who Are Not Mischief Maker.

So going with Steam is like buying a Dell and DRM-free is like building your own tower?

I re-install windows frequently. Thanks to their DRM-free nature, I've backed up all my shmups onto a single Dual-Layer DVD. Most of them are copy-paste direct dump. About 4 require me to go through the agony of typing in the install path or double-clicking a patch file. They're all on my Hard drive and ready to play in less than 15 minutes. Including all my similarly backed up non-shmups, I can have all my video games up and running on my machine in under an hour without asking anyone for permission.

That's too much work for you? You need a frontend to do that for you? You're willing to exchange hours of download time to avoid a that little bit of effort? Geez, if People Who Are Not Mischief Maker are this lazy, it's no wonder recent releases of Tetris let you shelve pieces if they aren't a convenient shape for you to use at the moment.