So I played Ikaruga for the first time...

[Despatche]

Am LOL. :V

you are amazing. what are you doing here?

[Special World]

I really have no idea why everyone here calls Ikaruga a puzzle game. Have you guys ever played a puzzle game? If you're calling Ikaruga a puzzle game because you have to "puzzle out" which enemies to shoot when, you might as well call DOJ a puzzle game.

[Skykid]

this wasn't really directed towards skykid's article; i choose not to read that, actually.

Phew! Good thing too, you dodged a real bullet there. Boy, imagine if you had read it, y'know, even accidentally? Holy shit, that's a big 'if' isn't it?

DAMN you must be born lucky pal, I envy you.

[Observer]

Guys, guys, guys, what happened here? Why the threads degenerate into this recently? Bloody friendly ponies running wild, mate.

Just let the people enjoy whatever the hell they want. Don't force-feed them anything. The guy liked Ikaruga? So what? So be it! Hell, I also loved Ikaruga not so long ago (I like it nowadays) until I decided to try the chaining and, well, it wasn't my cup of tea. But this it's all trial and error until you settle down and find the games you like.

Picture the guy who only played FPS or whatever has a muscular space marine switching between two weapons and decides to try a shooter for the first time because some inspired, heavenly entity decided it was enough of CoD. It might be something incredible, something strange, something even mysterious. I mean, what little "cutscenes" present last 5 seconds, you are usually always playing, you don't have to reload, if you screw up you die in one hit. Credits? Polarity? Polaroid? It's a completely different mindset. And what Treasure did right was the whole "grandiosity"/epic themes. It's not the same running across corridors blasting 1 alien every 10 minutes than flying on a m·%$·$% ship, listening to Top Gun or Ace Combat OST and winding lock-on guided laser missiles and additional pew pew, defying the physics.

I think that's more valuable than scaring off half the people with the "WOOF, NO U! IHATEEVERYTHING!" and who has the bigger penis guns (obviously, Space Phallus has them). I can't pretend everyone to worship Hellsinker or Diadra Empty as much as I (and a couple more people) do

What I do hate is how the mainstream press pictured Ikaruga as the "say-no-more" of the shooters. As if after this game, nothing else was relevant because the genre is, plain and simply, dead and the only way is back to Radiant Silvergun in a monstrous, misinformed Ouroboros allegory. Perhaps Jamestown can help increase the awareness of other styles across the western population and soften Valve a bit with their attitude towards shooters (after hearing they turned down Score Rush and many others) before it's too late and Microsoft pummels whatever value the shooters used to have down to $1 downloadable, ephemeral Xbox Live things buried under rating abuse or worse...

mouser nailed it, lol.

[psy]

The thought just popped into my head that Ikaruga is like a performance art, it's a game that's more for the spectator than the player. Playing it may be a gruelling, punishing and pretty much linear experience, but watching a superplay of it is nothing short of awe inspiring. It's like watching some guy juggling swords or something, it's probably a bland and totally methodical sequence to him, but to an onlooker it's breathtaking.

Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a very fun game to the right player, but at the end of the day I can't help but believe that the real reward to be had is the show put on by the gameplay as opposed to the experience of playing the game. You don't even have to play nor give a shit about shmups to enjoy watching a perfectly excecuted Ikaruga superplay.

[Drum]

Ikaruga tends to be praised for being hardcore

No Halo is hardcore gaming to the max. Just hardcore player who can play the game.
No just joke around, Ikaruga is a great game, it's beatiful, good music and gameplay. I just say it's bad because I suck at it.

Halo and Ikaruga aren't really comparable. Halo has gameplay.

[RNGmaster]

Halo and Ikaruga aren't really comparable. Halo has gameplay.

sig'd

[psy]

Halo and Ikaruga aren't really comparable. Halo has gameplay.

sig'd

Bastard, you beat me to it.

[Skykid]

^ I did think that was kinda funny too, in an extreme way of course.

Ikaruga's far from unplayable tho, and it's certainly a good game - just one that has limited appeal, even to shmup aficionados.

I never hear such a level of adversity toward RSG, so I'm assuming most people consider that to be superior to Ika? (I know I do.)

[psy]

I still need to give RSG a go I'd never heard of it until it was talked about in an Ikaruga review.

I do love Ikaruga, I play it all the time. The gameplay does things for me reminiscent of meditation and self discipline excersizes.

[-Bridget-]

What I do hate is how the mainstream press pictured Ikaruga as the "say-no-more" of the shooters. As if after this game, nothing else was relevant because the genre is, plain and simply, dead and the only way is back to Radiant Silvergun in a monstrous, misinformed Ouroboros allegory.

Yeah, I totally agree with this.

I dont particularly like Ikaruga myself, but I'd never say it's a bad game... it's just not for me.

But what bothers me is that people take it as the end-all-be-all of shmups, the Holy Grail of the genre.

It's VERY similar to what alot of people think about with WoW, and the MMO genre. I dont play WoW, it's not a BAD game, but the problem with it is that it sucks people into it (often with the Blizzard name, and large population), and they end up not trying out OTHER games in the genre that they might like MORE. WoW is the one that's supposed to be on top, so they play that and think that's all there is to it.

I see the same thing with Ikaruga as well (and touhou). They play it, and it's this awesome combo of shooting and puzzle games (?), it's this amazing artistic experience, it's like watching a well-coreographed dance number, blahblahblah.

.....but have they played anything else, do they have OTHER shmups to compare it to? Most of the time, no. At least, from what I've seen, anyway.

They often dont really TRY looking into the genre further, despite that, if they like that one, there may be (and often probably are) other games that might be even better for them, and that might pull them into the genre further.... but they dont do so. Why? Because Ikaruga. That's why. And that always just irks me.

[mouser]

It's VERY similar to what alot of people think about with WoW, and the MMO genre. I dont play WoW, it's not a BAD game, but the problem with it is that it sucks people into it (often with the Blizzard name, and large population), and they end up not trying out OTHER games in the genre that they might like MORE. WoW is the one that's supposed to be on top, so they play that and think that's all there is to it.

I see the same thing with Ikaruga as well (and touhou). They play it, and it's this awesome combo of shooting and puzzle games (?), it's this amazing artistic experience, it's like watching a well-coreographed dance number, blahblahblah.

.....but have they played anything else, do they have OTHER shmups to compare it to? Most of the time, no. At least, from what I've seen, anyway.

I have a hard time seeing someone liking Ikaruga but not willing to try other games in the genre. I think it more likely that:

1. They get curious about shmups
2. They want to play the "best" according to reviewers
3. They try Ikaruga and think it sucks
4. They think it's representative of shmups in general and give up on the genre, and go back to playing Halo

Unfortunate, but what can you do. Heck, I tried to get brother into Ikaruga, but he preferred R-Type and Gradius V more.

I am curious what would be regarded here as the quintessential shmup, however.

[Despatche]

someone's going to say dodonpachi and they're going to be a moron for it. nope, they still don't have the decency to just go with dojbl already. either way, i don't have one because there really isn't one.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I am curious what would be regarded here as the quintessential shmup, however.

[Skykid]

someone's going to say dodonpachi and they're going to be a moron for it. nope, they still don't have the decency to just go with dojbl already. either way, i don't have one because there really isn't one.

I'd go with DOJ BL.

[Erppo]

Anyone who says DDP/DOJ has most likely never played the game for score.

[moozooh]

A tough choice between Futari 1.5 Original and DOJ BL for me, but I'd probably pick DOJ as well simply because it's more coherent and much better polished in every respect. Scoring system demands balls, yes, and that should be quite representative of shmups in general.

[Naut]

Anyone who says DDP/DOJ has most likely never played the game for score.

I hate chaining and I play DOJ for score, yet I'd still say it.

[Erppo]

Okay, let me clarify. DOJ is basically Cave's Ikaruga: you need to make a plan how to approach it and doing even a single mistake usually hurts you a lot. (In DDP with no hypers you can't even make a plan, you just need to learn the chains)

I don't think these games are any more representetative in that you really need to learn the game to get any score at all, the same argument people seem to have against Ikaruga here.

[moozooh]

At the same time, hypers allow instant amendments to the plan, and while it's going to hurt your score somewhat to start hyper earlier than expected, it won't be as devastating as cutting a chain mid-stage. Also, the chain can be recovered even after death if the chain timer was full at the time.

I do agree that it's not terribly different from Ikaruga, though.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Futari 1.5 Original

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

[RNGmaster]

obligatory allcaps CRIMZON CLOVER

Big, loud, unsubtle, great scoring system, lots of customization. It's like a distillation of every CAVE game and most Toaplan games.
Also awesome music.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

"Distillation" is a very good way of describing CC because all the things that were good about Toaplan have long since evaporated. COME AT ME BRO!

[RNGmaster]

"Distillation" is a very good way of describing CC because all the things that were good about Toaplan have long since evaporated. COME AT ME BRO!

The weaponry is kind of Batsugun-ish, and Stage 5 reminds me of nothing more than Truxton 2. But other than that, yeah, it's mostly CAVE. Still a great shmup, even though it lacks level design

[saucykobold]

I am curious what would be regarded here as the quintessential shmup, however.

By "quintessential," do you mean "archetypal?" If so, I don't think a DDP would be the most appropriate choice. Not every shmup has a complicated scoring system, but all share the common core of blast 'n survive. I think I'd nominate something like Raiden, Kyukyoku Tiger, or Strikers 1945 II.

[-Bridget-]

It's VERY similar to what alot of people think about with WoW, and the MMO genre. I dont play WoW, it's not a BAD game, but the problem with it is that it sucks people into it (often with the Blizzard name, and large population), and they end up not trying out OTHER games in the genre that they might like MORE. WoW is the one that's supposed to be on top, so they play that and think that's all there is to it.

I see the same thing with Ikaruga as well (and touhou). They play it, and it's this awesome combo of shooting and puzzle games (?), it's this amazing artistic experience, it's like watching a well-coreographed dance number, blahblahblah.

.....but have they played anything else, do they have OTHER shmups to compare it to? Most of the time, no. At least, from what I've seen, anyway.

I have a hard time seeing someone liking Ikaruga but not willing to try other games in the genre. I think it more likely that:

1. They get curious about shmups
2. They want to play the "best" according to reviewers
3. They try Ikaruga and think it sucks
4. They think it's representative of shmups in general and give up on the genre, and go back to playing Halo

Unfortunate, but what can you do. Heck, I tried to get brother into Ikaruga, but he preferred R-Type and Gradius V more.

I am curious what would be regarded here as the quintessential shmup, however.

I've seen it happen before though; a couple of friends of mine did this one.

They played Ikaruga, thought it was cool. They were bloody AWFUL at it, but they still thought it was cool.

I try to introduce them to other shmups.... particularly ones that might be easier, because these friends of mine usually have trouble with losing at stuff.... but "Nah. Only really wanted to play that one. I mean, it's got like, all them puzzle elements, so it's not just a mindless shooter like the ones YOU play".

*sigh*

[ncp]

Okay, let me clarify. DOJ is basically Cave's Ikaruga: you need to make a plan how to approach it and doing even a single mistake usually hurts you a lot. (In DDP with no hypers you can't even make a plan, you just need to learn the chains)

I don't think you thought this one out very thoroughly...

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

"Distillation" is a very good way of describing CC because all the things that were good about Toaplan have long since evaporated. COME AT ME BRO!

The weaponry is kind of Batsugun-ish, and Stage 5 reminds me of nothing more than Truxton 2. But other than that, yeah, it's mostly CAVE. Still a great shmup, even though it lacks level design

You mean the enemies actually try divebombing in an attempt to kill you rather than putting on a lightshow for you to gawk at? my mind is blown by this revelation. All it needs now is a few sniper tanks here and there and maybe I'll consider it a true successor.

[Erppo]

Okay, let me clarify. DOJ is basically Cave's Ikaruga: you need to make a plan how to approach it and doing even a single mistake usually hurts you a lot. (In DDP with no hypers you can't even make a plan, you just need to learn the chains)

I don't think you thought this one out very thoroughly...

Vague implying arguments are fun. I think I might have some idea what you're trying to say here but seeing how you didn't even bother to clarify it I don't see why I should either.