So I played Ikaruga for the first time...

[moozooh]

Treasure doesn't understand what makes a good shmup, let alone a great one. A good 2D vertical scrolling shooter has to have a scoring mechanic that is very addictive. This addictiveness lights the incentive fire underneath a passionate player to explore every nook and cranny of the game. Ikaruga lives in the dark ages in this regard. Treasure might as well have left out the polarity mechanic, so everyone would realize how primitive and bland it is.

You know what's funny? That some of the best players on these forums, many of the strongest Japanese players, and some of the most revered shmup developers alike think it's an amazing game, and have spent hundreds of hours to achieve respectable results in it.

Clearly they just don't understand. Treasure sucks.

[Siren2011]

Clearly they just don't understand. Treasure sucks.

I never said that my opinion of Ikaruga was the "end all" of all opinions on Ikaruga. If those pro players you speak of like the game, then good for them! I envy their ability to enjoy this game! But my personal threefold criteria for what makes an exceptional shmup are as follows:

-The game must have impressive aesthetic appeal, which increases the immersion factor (what is the point of playing a game in which the world it's set in is uninteresting?).
-Its scoring system must be addictive.
-It must challenge me and push me well past my "limits" if I am to get anywhere with it.

Ikaruga only fills two of those requirements, therefore, I am incapable of playing it for long.

Let me put it to you this way: I believe that most anyone can excel in almost anything ("almost", because of mentally and physically fixed limitations preventing them from doing so. which of course varies from person to person) if they dedicate a lot of their time to it, and stay persistent, doing their very best. Excellence is inevitable following this method. Maybe they won't be anywhere near "the best of the best" in many cases, but they would still excel other respectable people.

Now, the question then arises (and it is a very important one, as your life is shaped around what your answers are): out of all these many activities that I can dedicate my time and power towards, which ones will I actually enjoy doing? Of course, I can choose something like being an expert on gardening or breeding French poodles. But who am I kidding? These things do not sound like they would give me much of a feeling of accomplishment. My time would better be spent on complex and difficult videogames, writing, acting, as well as making music. This does not necessarily mean that those people who do enjoy gardening or Ikaruga or breeding French poodles are all "wrong", since a universal "right and wrong" does not exist! It is all a matter of taste. These things are simply boring to me.

[moozooh]

Ikaruga is complex and difficult (try chaining the stage 2 intro), and it doesn't muck around telling the player it demands dedication for them to get anywhere in it, much like its predecessor, Radiant Silvergun, did.

I have nothing against your opinion per se (Ikaruga is far from my favorite shmup either), but the premises you're basing it on are genuinely bogus, like implying Treasure doesn't know <insert something here> because you're more casual than a typical Japanese arcade gamer, which is its core audience. You may as well put it as "Ikaruga is not a good game because I don't want to spend time playing it" without having to surround that opinion with an elaborate description, because clearly all those people who have sunk many dozens of hours on every stage in attempts to full-chain it (which is a prerequisite for getting a respectable score) must either think it's addictive, or have a serious mental disorder. Likewise, having some accomplishment in any other shmup instead doesn't make it better or worse, or more useful, or at all different.

I mean, you can say anything you want and it's alright, but surely you can at least not be ridiculous while at it?

[Siren2011]

...but the premises you're basing it on are genuinely bogus, like implying Treasure doesn't know <insert something here> because you're more casual than a typical Japanese arcade gamer, which is its core audience.

Ok, if you want me to be more accurate, Treasure doesn't make shooters that hold my interest for very long periods of time. And I have put in 15+ hours into Ikaruga, so you can't say I am completely without experience, here. This is a sharp contrast to Galuda and Daioujou, the both of them I've been playing for years. So you're right about one thing, I guess. I can't say it's a terrible game. But I can say that it doesn't interest me much. If I really wanted to, I could force myself to play for score, and I would make decent progress, too (I've gotten an A+ stage ranking after spending hours on the first stage). But would I/did I enjoy it? No...

I just don't know how to explain it any other way. I've seen posters on this board who can't stand horizontal shooters like Xexex and Gradius (mostly because games of this nature strip the player of is power and humiliate him by re-spawning at a checkpoint with crummy pew pew lasers), but love vertical Cave shooters. Some people just like certain mechanics more than others. And since the light/dark mechanic is vital to basically everything you do in Ikaruga, then disliking it means disliking the game itself.

[R-Gray 1]

Ikaruga is a very good shmup, a great ambience, great soundtrack, great gameplay, the system of gaining more credits with more playing time...that helps you to get amazed in new stages, new enemies, the stage designs.....old school,...scoring is not the most important for much people, for some people scoring is playing lot of times the same...

chapter 3 is great !
chapter 4 is epic !
last boss is awesome!

ps: sorry my english

[Skykid]

My feelings on the subject.

[R-Gray 1]

My feelings on the subject.

I read your review and I think Seven out of Ten is ok..in my opinion could be a 7.5

[-Bridget-]

Clearly they just don't understand. Treasure sucks.

I never said that my opinion of Ikaruga was the "end all" of all opinions on Ikaruga. If those pro players you speak of like the game, then good for them! I envy their ability to enjoy this game! But my personal threefold criteria for what makes an exceptional shmup are as follows:

-The game must have impressive aesthetic appeal, which increases the immersion factor (what is the point of playing a game in which the world it's set in is uninteresting?).
-Its scoring system must be addictive.
-It must challenge me and push me well past my "limits" if I am to get anywhere with it.

Ikaruga only fills two of those requirements, therefore, I am incapable of playing it for long.

Let me put it to you this way: I believe that most anyone can excel in almost anything ("almost", because of mentally and physically fixed limitations preventing them from doing so. which of course varies from person to person) if they dedicate a lot of their time to it, and stay persistent, doing their very best. Excellence is inevitable following this method. Maybe they won't be anywhere near "the best of the best" in many cases, but they would still excel other respectable people.

Now, the question then arises (and it is a very important one, as your life is shaped around what your answers are): out of all these many activities that I can dedicate my time and power towards, which ones will I actually enjoy doing? Of course, I can choose something like being an expert on gardening or breeding French poodles. But who am I kidding? These things do not sound like they would give me much of a feeling of accomplishment. My time would better be spent on complex and difficult videogames, writing, acting, as well as making music. This does not necessarily mean that those people who do enjoy gardening or Ikaruga or breeding French poodles are all "wrong", since a universal "right and wrong" does not exist! It is all a matter of taste. These things are simply boring to me.

I gotta say I pretty much agree with this.

There was a time when I coulda played a shmup purely for survival challenge, and actually enjoyed myself, but that was way back when I was just starting out on the genre.

That's changed, though. JUST playing these for survival isnt enough anymore. As with many players, these always become not just about that, but about scoring well also.... and to want to do that, I need a scoring system that is actually something I find interesting and good.

I cannot say that about Ikaruga. Ikaruga is..... way too strict, to the point of being boring. The only way to chain, is the specific exact way a level is designed for you to chain. It reminds me of..... DOJ, actually, one of only two Cave shmups that I cannot stand playing for more than about 2 minutes (the other being the original version of Galuda 2). Like with DOJ, I often feel that Ikaruga's scoring is nothing but pure memorization... and feats of memory do not impress me whatsoever. Games like that dont allow for experimentation within the scoring system, dont allow you to try new things; you follow the predetermined path, you do it PERFECTLY, or you dont get points. Yeah, um, no thanks, I'll stick with..... most anything else.

I've TRIED to get into this game, particularly with all the hype surrounding it, but no, it just never works. I'll play through a couple of levels and then find myself just plain getting bored.

I can respect others' opinions on the matter.... I'll never say it's a BAD game or anything.... but at the same time, I seriously do not understand the hype and such surrounding this game any more than I understand the appeal of Touhou.

[R-Gray 1]

yes, depends of the tastes of gamers, for example i don't like too much Mushihimesama or its clones, but I enjoyed a lot Mars Matrix

Ikaruga is not a maniac shooter right?

This have variety of gaming and the changing polarity to survive, the fast stages and a escape final stage.

As I said post before, I like other shmups more than Ikaruga, but is a good game, but sure in this site is not very popular because here scoring is the best

[Bee Cool]

i don't like too much Mushihimesama or its clones

Stating that all Cave games are clones of one of their games released in 2004 is a poor attempt at trolling.

[RNGmaster]

i don't like too much Mushihimesama or its clones

Stating that all Cave games are clones of one of their games released in 2004 is a poor attempt at trolling.

R-Gray's not trolling. That's what he actually believes.

[Skykid]

My feelings on the subject.

I read your review and I think Seven out of Ten is ok..in my opinion could be a 7.5

I don't do .5's

I think a seven is fair, as long as it can be justified (which is what any review attempts to do, of course.)

[R-Gray 1]

i don't like too much Mushihimesama or its clones

Stating that all Cave games are clones of one of their games released in 2004 is a poor attempt at trolling.

R-Gray's not trolling. That's what he actually believes.

I know exist other games with that game style before Mushihimesama,( I played Donpachi on arcade and looks great for being a 90s game) but in other topic I asked what's the difference between Mushihimesama - Dodonpachi dai ou jou - EspGaluda and the answer was the difficulty. Nobody said other answer.
and I never said All Cave games are clones of one...I didn't have the pleasure to know all the cave games, just few ones.

If i was trolling,....What was the other people did in this topic?
Just as other people don't like one game I don't like too much the style of mushihimesama or dodonpachi dai ou jou or Espgaluda....that is what I tried to said.

I don't do .5's

I think a seven is fair, as long as it can be justified (which is what any review attempts to do, of course.)

ok seven
yes i think is the most fair.

[Despatche]

r-gray 1: if anything, espgaluda is most like progear, with a few elements from other games. doj(bl) is mostly like dodonpachi (there are even bits of dodonpachi all over the game) with "fixed" chaining flow and a, uh, somewhat new way to play with chains.
--------------------
now. why was this thread revived with a bunch of buuuullshiiiit.

complain about chaining all you want but you're still going to lose points for "missing something", in every bloody game ever that records points (yep, it's that damn "memorization" monster again). ikaruga, actually, manages to be one the least depressing of this as far as chaining systems go simply because there's an actual "max chain" wall and it's not that high. seriously, don't compare this to donpachi so straight-forwardly, you are doing yourself and others a huge injustice. even guwange has a stricter "chaining" system, despite being fairly easy to normally deal with.

no, i'm not trying to say that you're a bad person for hating chaining, because i certainly do when it's half-baked in practice, no matter how good the basic system is (dodonpachi). i'm just saying that judgments seem to be clouded all the time, and people seem to refuse to understand the merits of the system and its mechanics versus all the others (especially ones they love) out there all the time.

ikaruga is simply a well-made game that totally appeals to the "perfectionist" kind of guy, in a way that most games don't, even when they're still perfectionist games in practice, because yet again, any non-random shmup "devolves" into a perfectionist affair at high level, i.e. "limited and robotic", i.e. you've got to put work into games to get anywhere, etc. so really, the only thing ikaruga does different is make it even more retardedly clear what you're expected to do. once you finally realize all of this, you just may either despise or appreciate the game and the whole damned genre (and many more genres besides) a little more, which is a lot better than being so half-assed about it like i see out of nearly all the apparently opinionated texts on scoring here, especially out of those dumb touhou kids. memorization, execution, and reflexes are what games are about.

damn.

this wasn't really directed towards skykid's article; i choose not to read that, actually.

oh, and fuck souky's soundtrack, it's boring. give me radiant silvergun any day, he did a much better job there.

...oh. and credits have no place in console games, especially original ones. extends were and still are fine enough, thank you; i give my thanks to all devs who find it better to just remove continues in their built-from-scratch shooters.

[R-Gray 1]

Despatche I understand u xDD


this topic made me watch again on youtube ikaruga chapter 4....ohhh Wonderful!!!!!!!

[Bee Cool]

I know exist other games with that game style before Mushihimesama,( I played Donpachi on arcade and looks great for being a 90s game) but in other topic I asked what's the difference between Mushihimesama - Dodonpachi dai ou jou - EspGaluda and the answer was the difficulty. Nobody said other answer.
and I never said All Cave games are clones of one...I didn't have the pleasure to know all the cave games, just few ones.

If i was trolling,....What was the other people did in this topic?
Just as other people don't like one game I don't like too much the style of mushihimesama or dodonpachi dai ou jou or Espgaluda....that is what I tried to said.

You could have taken STGs from Psikyo, Skonec, Seibu, Triangle service or any other developer, compare them to other STGs made by that same developer and claim they are clones because they have some similarities, but you didn't, you chose Cave because you knew it would annoy people. You're much too smart to actually not notice different scoring mechanics, art styles, and bullet patterns between Cave games.

[louisg]

now. why was this thread revived with a bunch of buuuullshiiiit.

complain about chaining all you want but you're still going to lose points for "missing something", in every bloody game ever that records points (yep, it's that damn "memorization" monster again). ikaruga, actually, manages to be one the least depressing of this as far as chaining systems go simply because there's an actual "max chain" wall and it's not that high. seriously, don't compare this to donpachi so straight-forwardly, you are doing yourself and others a huge injustice. even guwange has a stricter "chaining" system, despite being fairly easy to normally deal with.

My point exactly! Look, I love Mars Matrix and Ikaruga both, but I can say really quickly which game *won't* completely screw over your score if you drop the chain because in Ika you're back to where you were in just twelve short enemies, as opposed to it adding onto your score with no cap. The fact that Rob is able to recover his score in MM just means he's a total ace I think it just drives people insane the fact that there is a planned out route to max chain the entire game, which I can understand being horribly tedious if your only goal is to max chain the entire game and you don't enjoy the level design.

I can understand why someone wouldn't like Ikaruga, and I have to agree it's overrated. But, I would bet that a lot of the really harsh anti-Ika sentiment is in part because Ikaruga is regarded as the ultimate shmup by mainstream gaming news outlets and annoyingly name-dropped all over the place.

oh, and fuck souky's soundtrack, it's boring. give me radiant silvergun any day, he did a much better job there.

come on

[Siren2011]

Why was this thread revived with a bunch of stuff I don't agreeeeee with?

Complain about chaining all you want, but you're still going to lose points for "missing something"; in every bloody game ever that records points (yep, it's that damn "memorization" monster again), Ikaruga actually manages to be one the least depressing of this as far as chaining systems go. This is because there's an actual "max chain" wall and it's not that high. (Ed. WTF is that supposed to mean? I can't tell if this is simply a banal observation or what.) Seriously, don't compare this to Donpachi so straight-forwardly, as you are doing yourself and others a huge injustice by doing so. (Ed. Uh...how, exactly?) Even Guwange has a stricter "chaining" system, despite being fairly easy to normally deal with.

No, I'm not trying to say that you're a bad person for hating chaining, because I certainly do when it's half-baked in practice, no matter how good the basic system is (Dodonpachi) (Ed. Now you do realize that the scoring is synonymous with "the system", right? You are contradicting yourself in one sentence.). I'm just saying that judgments seem to be clouded all the time, and people seem to refuse to understand the merits of the system and its mechanics versus all the others (especially ones they love) out there all the time.

Ikaruga is simply a well made game that totally appeals to the "perfectionist" kind of guy in a way that most games don't; even when they're still perfectionist games in practice, because yet again, any non-random shmup "devolves" into a perfectionist affair at high level, i.e. "limited and robotic." I.e. you've got to put work into games to get anywhere, etc. (Ed: Thanks, because I had no idea. I thought shmupping skill came from playing with glass. Who woulda thunk it! All I had to do was put time and effort into the game. I totally didn't mention that quite clearly a post or two ago. ) So really, the only thing Ikaruga does different is make it even more retardedly clear what you're expected to do. Once you finally realize all of this, you just may either despise or appreciate the game and the whole damned genre (and many more genres besides) a little more, which is a lot better than being so half-assed about it like i see out of nearly all the apparently opinionated texts on scoring here (You may want to check if your post is free of half-assery as well before passing judgement on others. Just sayin'.), especially out of those dumb Touhou kids. Memorization, execution, and reflexes are what games are about.

Damn.

This wasn't really directed towards Skykid's article; I chose not to read that, actually.

Oh, and fuck Souky's soundtrack. It's boring. Give me Radiant Silvergun any day. He did a much better job, there.

Oh, and credits have no place in console games, especially original ones. Extends were and still are fine enough, thank you. I give my thanks to all devs who find it better to just remove continues in their built-from-scratch shooters.

Compare your post now with the original. Do you see how much I had to proofread? It should be embarrassing, really. How do you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously if you can't capitalize your sentences --even if you had valid points!?

And for the record, Guwange doesn't reset your chain whenever you get hit, so I smell bullshit. It merely takes your chain back a couple thousand points (or something of that nature). I would much rather play that instead.

Everyone knows that memorization is crucial to learning anything. Some things just are not worth learning to some people. Why is it so hard for people to understand this?

[R-Gray 1]

You could have taken STGs from Psikyo, Skonec, Seibu, Triangle service or any other developer, compare them to other STGs made by that same developer and claim they are clones because they have some similarities, but you didn't, you chose Cave because you knew it would annoy people. You're much too smart to actually not notice different scoring mechanics, art styles, and bullet patterns between Cave games.

LOL I Took Mushihimesama, dodonpachi Dai ou jou and EspGaluda because are not my favourites shmups I don't like their gameplay too much like old school shmups or others, Scoring is not too important for me, same as other people don't like TOO much Ikaruga or even don't like Ikaruga, that's all.

My point exactly! Look, I love Mars Matrix and Ikaruga both,

I like both too
great games


********
Bee Cool , cmon read my posts, i said what was point....

[Bee Cool]

If you don't like them they must be clones! Confirmed.

0/10

[R-Gray 1]

which I can understand being horribly tedious if your only goal is to max chain the entire game and you don't enjoy the level design.

yep level design is gr8 specially in the chapters i mentioned before

[MathU]

oh, and fuck souky's soundtrack, it's boring. give me radiant silvergun any day, he did a much better job there.

Get a rope, fellas.

[louisg]

oh, and fuck souky's soundtrack, it's boring. give me radiant silvergun any day, he did a much better job there.

Get a rope, fellas.

Seriously I think about the main Souky theme a lot.. it's catchy and dramatic. And I love how it works with Stage 3 as you descend through the clouds.. good stuff!*

* if you ignore some bugs

[chempop]

Souky's soundtrack rules, one of my all time favorites!

Not even going to argue about Ikaruga vs ___, probably the worst topic of debate in the history of shooting games.

[Drum]

I am not an Ikaruga fan at all but the shit that gets levelled at it is a bit much on this board considering how many of the games that are smothered in praise here have a lot of the same problems.

[mouser]

You're all just jealous that Ikaruga got all the praise from critics while your favorite shmups got shafted

Myself, I'm a huge Treasure fan - I've never played a game of theirs that sucked....Guardian Heroes, Gunstar Heroes, even the N64 game Mischief Makers was good. For Ikaruga, clocked over 100 hours, easily. My rating, 10/10. Love everything about the game, visual aesthetics, music, gameplay, style, even the abstract story...

[DocHauser]

Ikaruga is to shmups what Mastodon is to metal.

In other words, if you only read mainstream publications in the past few years, you'd think that Ikaruga/Mastodon is the only shmup/metal band worth bothering with in recent times. But shmup fans are thinking, 'But what about all these other great games?', which mainstream reviewers aren't that interested in, because - truth be told - they don't actually like shmups all that much and they only review one every now and again because it makes them seem more 'hardcore'.

Same deal with metal. Mastodon get lots of new fans because of good reviews on Pitchfork or appearing on Letterman (maybe not, because they sounded pretty bad in that show) while metal fans are thinking 'But what about Agalloch, or Opeth, or Karp, or Meshuggah?' But the mainstream ain't interested. So there's a fans backlash against Ikaruga/Mastodon because they get all the attention while their favourite game/band remains obscure.

Or something. Also, Ikaruga is not now, never has been, and never will be, 'a puzzle game'.

[moozooh]

That's pretty much what mouser said above, and I tend to agree.

Besides, one of the possible reasons Ikaruga tends to be praised for being hardcore is that it's... well, actually hardcore. Not the most hardcore, just hardcore. Especially if played for score. The amount of multitasking required to do anything well is incomparable to classic shmups, and is on par with the most execution-intensive manics.

[gray117]

I think the thing is ikaruga's got several hooks; now it may not be the best bullet hell game, it may not be the best puzzle game, it may not have the most amazing 3d graphics, it may not have the best use of 2d assets... But it does a good job of putting these all into a single package and presenting itself as a shmup.

Not only does this make it relatively unique, it also does a good job of not only piquing the interest of those interested in shmups, but also those more connected to other genres - genres in which 'sequel-itus' saw these participants value originality/uniqueness critically. Interestingly, in most recent times I think this value has ebbed a little, and 'effective execution' is higher up the critical table these days, as sequels become more accepted, and anticipated almost like patches/dlc.

I can't say it's my favourite shmup, but in all fairness its niche - and western exposure - has gone largely unchallenged since it's re-releases on gamecube and xbla.

[z0mbie90]

Ikaruga tends to be praised for being hardcore

No Halo is hardcore gaming to the max. Just hardcore player who can play the game.
No just joke around, Ikaruga is a great game, it's beatiful, good music and gameplay. I just say it's bad because I suck at it.