ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitively

[Sumez]

Just echoing what everyone else is saying. Really good guide, and yeah, inspirational is the right word, because I think a lot of what it says is self explanatory, but reading it and absorbing your personal comments and experiences should really help at inspiring people's ambitions to master their favourite title.

Personally I really enjoyed the techniques section the most, and if you want to expand on the guide, this is a place where I'd love to see more focus. I think it's hard/impossible to find any GENERAL technique/strategy guides on shmups/bullet hell games. I mean one thing is simple stuff like "don't stick to the bottom" and "don't look at your ship", but what would be really good is more tricks to deal with commonly appearing patterns or combinations of patterns.

[PROMETHEUS]

Thank you for your comments !

Personally I really enjoyed the techniques section the most, and if you want to expand on the guide, this is a place where I'd love to see more focus. I think it's hard/impossible to find any GENERAL technique/strategy guides on shmups/bullet hell games. I mean one thing is simple stuff like "don't stick to the bottom" and "don't look at your ship", but what would be really good is more tricks to deal with commonly appearing patterns or combinations of patterns.

I can see there is room for expanding that section indeed. I will keep note of that and see if I can work on it later.

[neon guide]

I really enjoyed this guide, Ive used some of the techniques when playing recently and they have really helped. Good combination of common sense, well described and as many people have said very inspirational!

I think its confirmed that I will never be a superplayer, and not even any sort high scorer, but it has confirmed why i love shmups so much!

[xris]

This has definitely gotten me to do more level practicing instead of full runs. I would say there is improvement, but it can be difficult to pull it all together into a single run.
I agree that I like the tech. section. It is damn near impossible to really find simple visual info on the types of dodging that there are, and when it should be considered. I liked that there is a little bit of that is in your guide, more please! It's amazing how something like the medal chain diagram in the Garrega strat thread can help. On the first page of the How to Practice STG thread, BER has a super helpful dialog about the types of movements there are, it's just a little messy... I had stream lined some of it for my own notes, and have tried to figure out when simple moves like V, M, W shapes should be used, along with tap dodging, etc.. I'm way too into sweeping from side to side most of the time. Most of my deaths these days come from running into something from the side.
How about a collaborated guide with a couple of the players on the board, with each of you getting respective chapters, and an interview section to boot! Combine what you have with some of the ideals from Icarus and BER in HTPSTG thread, and you would have the guide that all players would be clamouring for!
But, I guess that's just me being greedy.. Still, thanks for the hard work! We really do appreciate it!
@ Sumez, sure you think you sound dumb saying the obvious, like don't stick to the bottom, but it is very important to always remind yourself of the basics! High level martial arts is a return to the very basics, you learn the most important techniques as a white belt, you just don't realise it until you perfect it in the end.

[PROMETHEUS]

xris > Your comment made me think of something : if you guys have any questions about anything "practicing/performing in shmups"-related, you could post them here and if there are at least a bunch of questions, I can make a Q/A section in the guide. Easy for me to do, so it would be added fast, and could be useful.

Adding on the techniques section is a lot more work so that will have to wait until I find new useful ideas and... feel like putting the work in !

A grouped guide project sounds cool but I think most of the potential writers would disagree on some points and look at things in a very different way, making writing a coherent guide a real difficulty.

[borislaw]

I can't remember if this was addressed in your guide, but I was wondering what your opinion is concerning the use of life-saving bombs during practice sessions. I'm torn, because on one hand I want to practice at success without the use of any bombs. On the other hand, I found that I became rather inadequately skilled when it came time durring a full scoring run to save my ass with a bomb.

[PROMETHEUS]

A question already !
That was indeed covered in the guide, in the subsection about bombing.

(Short answer is yes, I strongly advise you to use "life-saving" bombs in practice, that's how you develop the skills related to using them the best you can, which is very important ! I think too few players learn to do that and it shows in their replays)

[Dave_K.]

(Short answer is yes, I strongly advise you to use "life-saving" bombs in practice, that's how you develop the skills related to using them the best you can, which is very important ! I think too few players learn to do that and it shows in their replays)

I'm confused. In this thread, you said the fastest way to get better is to play for score, which would mean to not bomb, since that is detrimental to scoring in DDP.

[PROMETHEUS]

I'm confused. In this thread, you said the fastest way to get better is to play for score, which would mean to not bomb, since that is detrimental to scoring in DDP.

Here is why :

I think it's important for a good player to recognize, at all times, if he is in danger of being hit. When the danger is too great and the player cannot find a way through the bullet, he has two choices :
* Try his luck through the bullets and risk dying.
* Bomb.

Depending on how much danger there is, you can chose to risk a move instead of bombing. You shouldn't always be aiming for the top possible score you have potential to reach (that's something I keep only for what I call "The Final Showdown" in the guide). It's also more than likely, unless you have great skill, that every single run you play will include a few positional mistakes, or that you will be overwhelmed at some point. It is important to know when to bomb in those situations, not only because the impact of bombing on your score is usually much lesser than dying, but also because obviously you are saving a life, allowing you to play longer and have more time to grab more points.

There is also a second reason why bombing is important : TLBs, or any other situation where the difficulty is great but bombing only has a small impact on your score. In DDP, this means anytime after your first death : the maximum bonus is gone, and unless you think you can survive much longer without dying again, you're much better off using your bomb. You can even continue your chain if your maximum bonus is just at 1.

Finally, my advice about bombing isn't meant to be specific to DDP. I feel that developping the bombing-related skills has a great impact in improving your average performance and scores in shmups.

I also use my ability to bomb well a looot when I play a game I don't know by heart, for instance. Helps me reach so much farther (and score more in average).

You can develop those skills any way you like. I think the best way is to always assess the situations whenever you are playing, be it during saved state practice of a level, a boss, a TLB, during full runs, be aware of how much you risk by trying a move, and if you feel lost or if you think you are not accurate enough to follow the trajectory you are seeing, then bomb right away, unless the very high risk of not-bombing while lost is worth enough points. Being better at bombing is being faster and more accurate at evaluating that risk, and also faster at deciding and actually hitting the bomb button (milliseconds count).

It's like gambling, you can choose to take a lot of risk, or a little less, or much less... depending on your style. In any case the bombing skills remain important, because there are always TLBs, and because taking maximum risk all the time (never bombing however high the danger) is sure to lead to lower scores (since the probability you will die many times is close to 99,9999999%).

I covered that in fewer words in the guide I think. I should probably expand it a little.

[Dave_K.]

Great response, thanks. Yes, it seems evaluating risk become a key skill which can be easily lost if trying to squeeze highest score possible out of every situation.

[borislaw]

Ah Yes this is good advice you have handed to us Prometheus. I've taken it to heart in my practice session and I am noticing a much improved discipline for not bombing merely because I am panicked, and am actually happy with my decision to bomb when I know it has allowed me to escape death.

Probably the most helpful advice was the realization that I needed stop focusing on the ship, most especially when under fire. Weaving in between small spaces among bullet clusters, I had just assumed the best strategy was to look at the character and make sure I was doing a good job avoiding those shots, when really it should be more of an after thought and my real attention should be turned on the break of the bullets as they release out from the bosses.



As an aside I thought I'd throw these links out

http://page.freett.com/touryuumonn/contents.html
http://page.freett.com/touryuumonn/technic.html

I was looking for some stuff on Esp Ra De and I came across this site. His work reminded me a little of your own. I can't be sure about this thought, because its all in Japanese. Google translate and English urls provide just enough for me to navigate around. I suggest taking a look, I don't know if its any good, but it is huge---lots of content, often Cave-focused and tons of picture and even home-made diagrams. So who knows, you might find some ideas for material to incorporate into your own project.

Don't under-estimate your guide--there is no telling what it might become or where it might take you. In Japan shmuping strategy guides might well come a dime-a-dozen. But in the English speaking world there are precious few, and none that I've come across even close to match Full Extent

[PROMETHEUS]

Thank you borislaw.

There's an average of 4 downloads a day (1550 total now), there is definitily continued interest in the guide, so it makes sense for me to work on it again and improve it. I will have time this summer and will look into it. Feedback given to me provided valuable ideas for improvement.

[xris]

Awesome! Looking forward to what may be added. I'm a little curious as far as if you had ever choose to start avoiding killing certain enemies in order to take advantage of a better score opportunity, or rank control, or do you continue to try and kill everything untill you find a way? What are your thoughts on methods of medal chains in Raizing style games? What if bombing is seriously detrimental (Futari Black Label)? Do you incorporate secret items from the begining, or work them in as you go along? I think you should see if you can include an interview in the back as well!

[Icarus]

How about a collaborated guide with a couple of the players on the board, with each of you getting respective chapters, and an interview section to boot! Combine what you have with some of the ideals from Icarus and BER in HTPSTG thread, and you would have the guide that all players would be clamouring for!

I'd be up for this.
I was thinking of doing a little something on basic technique (movement, pattern reading etc), but I'm not what you'd call an authority on the subject.

[PROMETHEUS]

I'm a little curious as far as if you had ever choose to start avoiding killing certain enemies in order to take advantage of a better score opportunity, or rank control, or do you continue to try and kill everything untill you find a way?

I don't do that, I just do what I'm told to do in the superplay video and adapt. If it's too hard I would tone some details down a bit by maybe killing some enemies faster or whatever makes it a little easier. Ways that make the game easier or that get you more points heavily depend on the specific part of the game, could be killing enemies faster, slower, being a little earlier or later in a position, using shot instead of laser, or laser instead of shot, at one specific second... Pretty much have to figure it out exactly for yourself if you can't copy. Even when copying, a lot of understanding and adapting leads you to this kind of efforts.

What are your thoughts on methods of medal chains in Raizing style games?

I don't play Raizing games, I have no particular knowledge about medal chaining and its difficulties. Sorry !

What if bombing is seriously detrimental (Futari Black Label)?

Like I said in that post earlier, it's up to you, at any time in a run, to decide using a bomb considering how high the risk of dying is, and how much you're going to lose if you bomb. But in any Cave game bombing is an important skill, even when bombing kills your score more than death, unless you know you will 1CC anyway and end of game bonuses for spare lives are less valuable than the amount of points you lose consequently to using a bomb in a specific part of the game. If finishing the game is hard, then you need to bomb to save your lives so as to make sure you play longer and keep the run going through all parts of the game, taking advantadge of all of your scoring time.

Do you incorporate secret items from the begining, or work them in as you go along?

In Cave games, I can't think of anything other than "secret" 1ups that fall into that category. Because I start playing and memorizing via a video from the first hour when I play a new game seriously, I incorporate everything I have enough ability to incorporate into my play, from the beginning. For example when I started playing DOJ a few months ago, I started by copying HFD chains right away and it worked really well because my ability (acquired with past shmup experience) was already enough for that in all 1st loop, although I toned some stuff down a bit to learn faster, or because it seemed a little too hard to do consistently.

If you were thinking of secret items a la Dimahoo or Raiden Fighters, I don't play them, but if I did, sure I would incorporate, just the same, everything and anything I see in superplay videos, from the beginning. As long as my ability is enough to execute what it takes to get those secret items, when I start learning the games. If not, I would look for ways to get as many points as possible without jeopardizing my success rate for full runs too much. Sometimes I might be a little lazy to attain a level of refinement as high as the video so I just approximate things and get a little less points.

Generally I avoid ever learning an non-optimal route if I feel I have enough skill to learn an optimal one. It is pointless to progressively improve your scoring routes by yourself or using different videos if you think you have enough skill to just try and copy the WR route or something close to that (if you want to get good fast).

I think you should see if you can include an interview in the back as well!

Hehe, why not, but I'm not gonna interview myself ! ^^ The chapter with my story at the end seems like a good way of getting to know the author + a shmup player's life example. A Q/A section could always include Q/As about me if people have any they want to ask. Well I'll probably include questions and answers that were already asked in this thread including this post !

[TrevHead (TVR)]

How about a collaborated guide with a couple of the players on the board, with each of you getting respective chapters, and an interview section to boot! Combine what you have with some of the ideals from Icarus and BER in HTPSTG thread, and you would have the guide that all players would be clamouring for!

I'd be up for this.
I was thinking of doing a little something on basic technique (movement, pattern reading etc), but I'm not what you'd call an authority on the subject.

Ive always thought there has been a big need in a comprehensive guide on You Tube showing the basic techniques of playing shmups, and have it tied into an even deeper guide on this forum. Ive been meaning to make a basic video guide but whats been stopping me from doings so if the pain of having to get this PC set up for recording video and adding effects. Plus both my playstyle and my voice is far from hollywood quality.

Imo the likes of Cave should stop been lazy and actually do some work themselves in educating gamers and raising their skill level to an intermediate level. Other genres have Playable Tutorials why can shmups?

It would be great if Udderdude or the other shmup devs actually got together and made a proper tutorial shmup, I cant think of anything better that as a contribution to the genre.

@Prometheus: Has the number of DLs for your guide increased over the past couple of days? The reason is that I recommended and linked your guide in the Steam Forum page for Jamestown. Ive been thinking about making a thead linking all the good guides plus add a quick explanation of the simple dodging techniques. But if no one will bother reading it im wasting my time.

[PROMETHEUS]

Indeed there has been a slight increase then a peak yesterday, I was wondering why it happened. An average of 10 downloads per day the past few days (instead of 4) and 20 downloads yesterday.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Thx, I would of hoped more ppl would of DLed the guide. Looking at the leaderboards not many ppl bought Jamestown (just 500 - 600 entries last time I checked a couple of days ago).

[RNGmaster]

I'd be up for this.
I was thinking of doing a little something on basic technique (movement, pattern reading etc), but I'm not what you'd call an authority on the subject.

Making a video series would be nice. I can think of 4 main concepts that are necessary to performing well as a shmupper - these are kind of vague categories, but they're fundamental concepts that would be easy to cover in a video series.

1. Conserve Movement. Don't move too much when you're dodging. Lots of newbs seem to be afraid of bullets coming their way, and they'll madly flail across half the screen trying to get away, often ramming into other bullets while they do. Same goes for static patterns.

2. Simplify the Situation. Just because there are lots of bullets on screen doesn't mean you have to be looking at all of them. Try to see what parts of the screen are more dangerous than others and where most of the bullets are going. Draw imaginary lines rather than looking at all the dots.

3. Be Aggressive. Use the top of the screen, sneak behind enemies, and eliminate priority targets. This last point is particularly important - most of my stupid deaths in shmups (especially Psikyo titles) relate to letting dangerous enemies stay alive for too long. Take out enemies that fire lots of bullets ASAP. Don't be afraid to get close.

4. Be Pessimistic. Always look for the easiest way out. Don't try to squeeze through small gaps that your hitbox might not be able to make it through. Macrododge what you can macrododge, and if you have to micrododge don't do anything that requires a huge amount of luck. And if you're trapped, bomb.

These are by no means definitive, and my descriptions are kind of anemic.
I'd be happy to help with the videos themselves, but I am utter shit at recording.

[Aguraki]

Because I start playing and memorizing via a video from the first hour when I play a new game seriously, I incorporate everything I have enough ability to incorporate into my play, from the beginning. For example when I started playing DOJ a few months ago, I started by copying HFD chains right away and it worked really well because my ability (acquired with past shmup experience) was already enough for that in all 1st loop, although I toned some stuff down a bit to learn faster, or because it seemed a little too hard to do consistently.

Don't take it the wrong way but it looks like your not creative by this quote?
I am really bad and only game I done well is donpachi(didn't even 2 all it),and I tried to pick the best in top replays,at least what I could do.
But for 1 certain sequence in the game I have a unique chain and move order that I haven't seen anywhere,and it's a time where people usually have a low chain,while mine looks better(since I'm not a top player I guess its better).
So are you ever brainstorming or trying to come with new ways,or are you more focusing on replicating a WR first?
Some people have to come with the routes first obv,but there is a big difference between WR and top western scores.
also luck has to come in game when discovering new routes.

[PROMETHEUS]

A short answer is that you will not come up by yourself with routes that are better than the ones you see in superplay videos without studying them first, unless some part was messed up by the player in the video or you spend a lot of time figuring out a possible better way.

In my case for DDP there were a lot of areas that I changed from KO's play, for instance the 2-2 safespot is something I came up with during practice, I entirely reworked 2-5 second half because his strategy there looks like he completely messed up and then survived after all. I also had to invent my own chain for 1-6 because KO simply didn't know how to full chain it. As well as a lot of other parts or details. There was a lot of room for adaptations or improvements there.

But for DOJ when I copied HFD, it was pretty clear to me this guy had come up with a very, very optimized route and all of the adapting work that I've done here is mostly just simplifying some parts and getting a little less points to make them less risky or easier to memorize because I was not interested in getting to that level of scoring optimization. You look at ISO's BL superplay from a few years before HFD and you realize this guy, after all the work he and others had already done, scored only 2.6B instead of 3.5B for HFD. It's not that he messes up a lot in that run, his route just isn't as good. I can score more than ISO in first loop already.

So I think you need to realize the routes are not something you can just work out by yourself and expect to be as good as the best. Depending on the quality of the superplay videos that you find you might be able to come up relatively fast with ways to do some part better than the player, but not if you get a very optimized superplay. They have worked years on their routes and they have not worked alone, rather a bunch of players watching each other play and making sketches to figure out the best routes.. It takes a lot of man hours and a lot of time for them to be laid out. And you get them served to you in video in the end.

So yes, you should definitely focus on studying and/or replicating those videos first. When you have studied the video for a part of the game, then sure, you can play around and see if you can and want to do it a different way, always checking that your way is safe enough and scores enough compared to the WR way and depending on your skill level. That's what I do myself, but when you get better, it becomes possible to you to just copy guys like HFD so you have less adapting to do, and in my case for DOJ I didn't do that much.

A very important bottom line here I think is this, and it applies for pretty much anything you want to learn to do, including creative stuff :

Before you start going at that activity in a creative way, you must study what the other people have learned about it before you, otherwise you're pretty much going to be redoing all by yourself all the steps that have led, through the years and many people working on them, to the creation of the techniques currently used.

So for example if you're learning chess you're gonna be studying openings and strategies and techniques from books, otherwise you'll just be playing an archaic innefficient style forever without getting good. Or at least it will slow you down enormously (you'll still be learning from what other better players do against you). Then when you're really good you can start making your own JAM.

The way this applies to shmups is : you adapt them superplay routes to your style and skill level, and then if you get as good as the superplayer in some part of the game you can start trying to actually improve it.

I will see about getting part of this question/answer into the guide if I feel it clarifies on what is already said there.

[Aguraki]

thx for the detailed answer
yes I like this topic as creativity brings optimism(as possibilities of going your own path and not just stubborn robotic play).

[Cactu]

This is a very nicely made documentary! I've read it twice already.
Do you know if the NoLifeTV video of you commentating on your DoDonPachi run exists anywhere as the YouTube video that you mentioned is deleted? I'd really like to see it!

[PROMETHEUS]

Hi Cactu, glad you liked it.

The NoLiveTV superplay show that featured me and my 505M Dodonpachi run is still available at this address : http://online.nolife-tv.com/index.php?id=12663&page=3
However, you can only view an extract of it unless you subscribe for one month of access to all the podcast content of the site for 3€.

[Cactu]

Cool, thanks! It would be really awesome if someone uploaded and translated the whole thing to english...

[AntiFritz]

How about a collaborated guide with a couple of the players on the board, with each of you getting respective chapters, and an interview section to boot! Combine what you have with some of the ideals from Icarus and BER in HTPSTG thread, and you would have the guide that all players would be clamouring for!

I'd be up for this.
I was thinking of doing a little something on basic technique (movement, pattern reading etc), but I'm not what you'd call an authority on the subject.

Ive always thought there has been a big need in a comprehensive guide on You Tube showing the basic techniques of playing shmups, and have it tied into an even deeper guide on this forum. Ive been meaning to make a basic video guide but whats been stopping me from doings so if the pain of having to get this PC set up for recording video and adding effects. Plus both my playstyle and my voice is far from hollywood quality.

Imo the likes of Cave should stop been lazy and actually do some work themselves in educating gamers and raising their skill level to an intermediate level. Other genres have Playable Tutorials why can shmups?

It would be great if Udderdude or the other shmup devs actually got together and made a proper tutorial shmup, I cant think of anything better that as a contribution to the genre.

@Prometheus: Has the number of DLs for your guide increased over the past couple of days? The reason is that I recommended and linked your guide in the Steam Forum page for Jamestown. Ive been thinking about making a thead linking all the good guides plus add a quick explanation of the simple dodging techniques. But if no one will bother reading it im wasting my time.

Yeah I've always been disapointed cave ports never had detailed tutorials and challenges (similar to what jamestown has).

[PROMETHEUS]

Today the download count has reached 3000 !
Most of the downloads come from USA (~800), France (~700), then England, Italy, Germany, Canada and Spain.
An average of 4 downloads a day, with sometimes much more after someone posts a link to it somewhere.

I think a lot of the downloads come from guests/forums lurkers, there must constantly be new ones coming to the site and checking out stuff like that. I hope the guide will have as much of a positive impact on the community and its future as it can, by teaching some of the newcomers some of what the whole Shmup business is about !

[Satiel]

I just finished reading this earlier today. Great article, man. You give us newcomers a lot of great tips for practice and keeping track of progress. Also, your own story is very interesting
Thanks!

[PROMETHEUS]

I just finished reading this earlier today. Great article, man. You give us newcomers a lot of great tips for practice and keeping track of progress. Also, your own story is very interesting :)
Thanks!

Thank you, that is really nice to read. I'm really happy to see that the goal I set in its introduction was reached. Welcome to the hidden world of Shmups !

[Satiel]

I just finished reading this earlier today. Great article, man. You give us newcomers a lot of great tips for practice and keeping track of progress. Also, your own story is very interesting
Thanks!

Thank you, that is really nice to read. I'm really happy to see that the goal I set in its introduction was reached. Welcome to the hidden world of Shmups !

Thanks!
I've been playing DoDonPachi all week between homework and other studies. Mostly been studying your runs and I've truly learned a LOT about the first level through playing isolated parts over and over again. I just reached my goal of hitting 3 Million in the first level, I definitely see what you were talking about when you said that people would quickly notice improvement if they practice properly.
Shmup world is so different now @_@