Ico SoTC fans rejoice

[Ruldra]

Release confirmed for September 27th, at $40 bucks.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/06/ ... n-for-ps3/

[Elixir]

That box art is horrible. I'm disappointed that it'll be $40; Americans are spoilt.

As a dedicated Ueda fan, I put my pre-order in for the Japanese limited edition which appeared on Amazon.jp little over a day ago. It pre-sold within 24 hours and has Japanese complaining about being unable to preorder anywhere, lol.

[Skykid]

That box art is horrible.

What he said, total garbage.

[ZOM]

Yup NA/EU boxart looks definitely shit.

As a dedicated Ueda fan, I put my pre-order in for the Japanese limited edition which appeared on Amazon.jp little over a day ago. It pre-sold within 24 hours and has Japanese complaining about being unable to preorder anywhere, lol.

Did I understand it right that the LE is the only version that has both games in Japan and otherwise they get sold seperately? (I'm a bit confused)
ATM I'm pissed that I missed the LE opportunity, I hope they'll do a rerun.

[BulletMagnet]

That box art is horrible.

Still better than the original PS2 box Ico got in the US.

[Elixir]

Did I understand it right that the LE is the only version that has both games in Japan and otherwise they get sold seperately? (I'm a bit confused)
ATM I'm pissed that I missed the LE opportunity, I hope they'll do a rerun.

LE is a bundle, the compilation is only for the west.

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/0 ... ico_dated/

Curious to see if they'll make some super deluxe European version, Ueda evidently has a thing for Europe.

[neorichieb1971]

Its because the PAL versions were optimized and released a half year later. He just added stuff in that he completed after the other two territories had released their version. With this version its HD, no reason to delay anything. Although they probably will.

[drauch]

Yeah, the Ico U.S. art is terrible. At least the SotC one wasn't dumbed down.

[Obiwanshinobi]

[GaijinPunch]

As a dedicated Ueda fan, I put my pre-order in for the Japanese limited edition which appeared on Amazon.jp little over a day ago. It pre-sold within 24 hours and has Japanese complaining about being unable to preorder anywhere, lol.

Yeah -- absolutely no chance of it being available on launch day.

[Sumez]

Its because the PAL versions were optimized and released a half year later. He just added stuff in that he completed after the other two territories had released their version. With this version its HD, no reason to delay anything. Although they probably will.

I hear Yorda's AI is pretty terrible in the NTSC versions, so that's good, but the two new puzzle added in the PAL version were horrible. It's the only place I actually got STUCK because the solutions to both puzzles feel like something you shouldn't be able to do with the engine and require tons of trial and error. Totally out of character for the game!

And guess what, most of the walkthroughs I could find at the time made no mention of those two puzzles, obviously.

I hope they leave them out in the remake.

[dcharlie]

got my Japanese double back preordered. Time to play them all over again... again....

[Elixir]

I hear Yorda's AI is pretty terrible in the NTSC versions, so that's good, but the two new puzzle added in the PAL version were horrible. It's the only place I actually got STUCK because the solutions to both puzzles feel like something you shouldn't be able to do with the engine and require tons of trial and error. Totally out of character for the game!

And guess what, most of the walkthroughs I could find at the time made no mention of those two puzzles, obviously.

I hope they leave them out in the remake.

They're either going to be respective of their own regions, or the European versions will be used. Ueda did say ages back that the European versions were the "full games".

[Skykid]

Its because the PAL versions were optimized and released a half year later. He just added stuff in that he completed after the other two territories had released their version. With this version its HD, no reason to delay anything. Although they probably will.

I hear Yorda's AI is pretty terrible in the NTSC versions, so that's good, but the two new puzzle added in the PAL version were horrible. It's the only place I actually got STUCK because the solutions to both puzzles feel like something you shouldn't be able to do with the engine and require tons of trial and error. Totally out of character for the game!

And guess what, most of the walkthroughs I could find at the time made no mention of those two puzzles, obviously.

I hope they leave them out in the remake.

How does PAL SOTC differ from Wander to Kyozo?

[neorichieb1971]

I think with Ico a few puzzles were added.

In SoTC I believe the only difference was the packaging as it got a LE. I've never played the PAL version, the case could be 24k gold and I still wouldn't play it.

[GaijinPunch]

There was an LE of Wander to Kyzo NTSC-J. It really is limited as well! Hard to find.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Cardboard boxed PAL edition of SotC was hardly limited. Platinum edition (budget reissue) seems to be actually rare.
Don't quote me on that, but SotC PAL reportedly lacks some bugs (the pigeon thing?) present in NTSC versions. Furthermore, although it has 60 Hz and progressive scan options, there's a short promotional video included (50 Hz only - I believe there wasn't space left for its 60 Hz counterpart on a single-layered DVD). If it detects an Ico save file on your memory card, Agro's facial marking is the "I" from Ico. Rumour has it in the US version it's one of two remaining letters.
Interestingly, although Ico PAL outputs 60 Hz and is the most recent build available, some people consider the "rushed" US version better looking (something to do with mip-mapping, particulary apparent while zooming).
I recall somebody claiming SotC looks beter in 4:3 (that's the way I played it on my CRT) due to superior mip-mapping as well.
I thought finding another game as technically shoddy as SotC released by any company for their own console wasn't likely to happen, but then I played Space Channel 5 (the first one). Whoa, and that was the PS2 port, reportedly improved over the DC original. Two most ham-fistedly put together first-party releases out there? Perhaps.

[dcharlie]

Kyozo was pushing the PS2 though - i love it, i played it on a projector and the sense of scale was immense and the music is outstanding.

[neorichieb1971]

Kyozo was pushing the PS2 though - i love it, i played it on a projector and the sense of scale was immense and the music is outstanding.

I believe SoTC is the pinnacle of successful software that pushed its native hardware to the limits. Its up there with Wipeout 3, Uncharted 2 and God of War 3. I wish Ueda had 20 different ideas and 3 of the 1st party studios were working on them at the same time. This 5-7 year gap malarkey is ridiculous.

Sometimes I think I wish for too much. TLG is going to be ground breaking, but I don't want to wait for it. lol.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Technically Jak II&3 shit on SotC from way up above in every aspect.
Explain to me how SotC "pushes its naitve hardware to the limits" during the fight with the boss afraid of fire, or the salamander boss. Or the dog/boar/lion boss in the ruins. Or just friggin' walking up and down the staircase. What's going on that would explain shitty performance in those moments other than shitty programming?

[Zaarock]

Technically Jak II&3 shit on SotC from way up above in every aspect.

I think Zone of the Enders 2 Special Edition wins here And so many effects and particles that they are sort of detrimental to gameplay already IMO. Still has some slowdown though.

[neorichieb1971]

Never played a JAK game. I would say SoTC would benefit from tidying up here and there, but as a vision from the alpha stages you wouldn't expect the game to perform even as well as it does. Its an open world, the disc is streaming constantly, the Collossi are massive, the story and emotion are 2nd to none, the music is freakin awesome.

I don't know about you Obi, but this game feels epic. Not many games have felt as epic as this one. There is technical (graphics, sound) and there is technical on interface/animation. I think the things you picked on have merit but I think if you love the experience you can overlook it. I fear you didn't like the experience at all and that left you with a sour taste. As I understand it Ueda's team is only 15-20 strong. That makes it an unbelievable achievement.

[dcharlie]

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20051207/3dwa.htm
- unfortunately the english translation is gone.

multipass rendering
fur shadding
motion blur (half joke!)
Volumetric particle system and clouds
procedural collissions, deformations, animations
realtime kinematics
etc etc

What's going on that would explain shitty performance in those moments other than shitty programming?

an overambitious engine on aging hardware?

Technically Jak II&3 shit on SotC from way up above in every aspect.

maybe it did, maybe it didn't - i've no idea as I've not played beyond Jak 1 and it's draw distance and poly count were immense and i assume it builds on that. Greggman was extremely happy with the Jak engine and i assume it just got better with iterations - but i've no idea whether it does all the things SoTC does - again, Jak is a great engine but it's within the abilities of the PS2 and it's programmed as such. With different techniques (we are talking the best of the best here for Naughty Dog) and a completely different approach to the technical design then Sony could have possibly got more out of SoTC and made it look better than it is (or could have dropped parts of the engine that were not needed) - but the point is that what they were trying to do and how they went about it -was- pushing the PS2 to the brink and had to use motion blur to hide the frame rate issues. It's not so much badly programmed as badly thought out in terms of what they were trying to do on the hardware. It's overambitious (?) design for the hardware.

Or just friggin' walking up and down the staircase

case in point - if it's the stair case leading away from the main hub it's calucating :
HDR lighting
realtime kinematics and procedural animation on Wanda
Particle/cloud
Multipass lighting / shadow casting

(if i remember that part rightly - it's a few years since i ran through the game)

[Skykid]

Technically Jak II&3 shit on SotC from way up above in every aspect.
Explain to me how SotC "pushes its naitve hardware to the limits" during the fight with the boss afraid of fire, or the salamander boss. Or the dog/boar/lion boss in the ruins. Or just friggin' walking up and down the staircase. What's going on that would explain shitty performance in those moments other than shitty programming?

I can't believe you managed to write that whole paragraph without saying the word 'framerate'.

[Obiwanshinobi]

It streams... like a computer game on a machine without enough RAM. H-L2 on my PC "streamed" like that before upgrade.
I believe some people liked SotC better than I did, but technically everything it does some other PS2 game did better (in terms of stuff displayed at once).
Like, in Blood Will Tell (not a technical miracle of a game by any stretch), when you fight Scourge down in the pit, it's a scene roughly comparable to the salamander bossfight from SotC, and yet Blood Will Tell performs better.
Sure, the platforming in SotC is unique and I can't put my finger on another game quite like it in this regard, but that feature alone hardly takes great deal of computing power. Say, Cold Fear does something similar (as the deck tilts, the bloke loses balance) but being a multiplatform game, certainly doesn't push any platform to its limit.

It's not so much badly programmed as badly thought out in terms of what they were trying to do on the hardware.

Well, from the buyer's point of view it's baffling (for a first party game). We're not talking Earth Defense Force (budget title) here.

case in point - if it's the stair case leading away from the main hub it's calucating :
HDR lighting
realtime kinematics and procedural animation on Wanda
Particle/cloud
Multipass lighting / shadow casting

The staircase with a pool at the bottom. I'm pretty sure NOTHING special is being displayed there.
Also, HDR my butt. Looks like ye olde bloom (with brightness cranked up). Those bloom and soft light effects have been done to death in many PS2 games without performance issues before. Ico, The Bouncer - to name early stuff - and so on. Heck, PSX port of Strider 2 does "HDR" on that waterfall highscore table backdrop. Nice fur and moss, though.
SotC's graphical whizz and bang, as I see it, is on the level comparable to Herdy Gerdy (also pretty yet underperforming game).

[Skykid]

Performance, schmormance.

It's a great game, what else matters!

[dcharlie]

Those bloom and soft light effects have been done to death in many PS2 games without performance issues before. Ico, The Bouncer - to name early stuff - and so on. Heck, PSX port of Strider 2 does "HDR" on that waterfall highscore table backdrop.

Again, it's all design decission issues - they're calculating everything rather than pre-baking it or using similar/less intensive/less 'realistic' effects. i'm not saying it's the right decission but the reason the engine stutters and struggles is because of those choices on how to accomplish certain effects, physics, lighting and what the PS2 is capable of on a technical level rather than "bad coding"

Sure, the platforming in SotC is unique and I can't put my finger on another game quite like it in this regard, but that feature alone hardly takes great deal of computing power.

it's calculating physics on the character (whilst deformation on the collosii skeleton and skin, fur shading, etc etc) - this is not trivial. Take BMT as your example - i'm a big fan of the game , one of the PS2's underrated gems. The physics are extremely simple - you get hit, you get knocked over - it's pretty much a standard animated fall. SoTC does this procedurally and that takes a good chunk more of CPU. Again, it's the same point - Sony could have simply cut down on the physics calcs or "baked" them in a bit more, but they chose not to by design.

Well, from the buyer's point of view it's baffling (for a first party game). We're not talking Earth Defense Force (budget title) here.

EDF is another game that outstrips what the PS2 can do too - the game starts off meh-ish, but once you've seen the giant caterpiller or realised you can destroy pretty much anything from almost any distance and the penny should drop just what it's calculating.

Also, HDR my butt. Looks like ye olde bloom (with brightness cranked up). Those bloom and soft light effects have been done to death in many PS2 games without performance issues before.

well, i think we are in danger of going round and round in a loop here HDR -is- being calculated in SoTC. In other games ? No idea - i'd guess probably not in most cases. Same point : could they have faked it up and not calculated it to save some processing power ? maybe - but they chose to calculate it so it's another -technical- point that pushes the PS2. As i said, we already have the tech details of what the engine is doing - i understand that the end results aren't to everyones tastes but what (and how) they are doing is unquestionably pushing the PS2. It's a shame the english version of the technical run down seems to be gone.

[Obiwanshinobi]

So they proved you can make slow tech demos for the PS2 too. Who would've thought? Still, not as amazing as Doom on ZX Spectrum.

[dcharlie]

So they proved you can make slow tech demos for the PS2 too. Who would've thought?

Personally i had no issues with the frame rate and i thoroughly enjoyed it and would happily sit it in the top 5 PS2 games
And i still think it looks great today. Brilliant art, awesome setting

[GaijinPunch]

I'd like to see Obiwanshionbi's top PS2 games list... something tells me I will laugh at it as hard as I did Skykid's top movies list (or at least half of it).

PS: I see a hotel room in you guys' future.