XBOX 360 - 240p Video Conversion?

[fagin]

I was reading another forum and I stumbled across a thread about trying to get 240p displayed from a 360 using a scan convertor. This got me thinking about something else.....

I have never tried connecting my 360 (for retro shooters, i.e. CAVE) to my arcade cabs, other than by using a VGA connection @ 640x480. Why on earth would I want to try anything else?

I then thought about trying my 360 with a SCART RGB lead, through a sync cleaner to an effective cga/ega output to my cab. I ahve such an intermediate lead so thought I would give it a go.

It won't be a surprise that you realise that this infact gave me a 480i picture on my CRT. However, you maybe surprised to hear that I think the picture looks better than a 480p image in to the same CRT. Aside from any interlace flicker (which is fairly non existant when the game is in full flow) the image colours look better and the picture looks more retro like.

Am I on drugs and do I need to go to the opticians!?

[Fudoh]

Many multisync CRTs become less sharp and defined the closer you come to the upper end of the specified frequency range. You can see the same on older PC CRT monitors (e.g. 17" ones) which really shine via XGA but become blurry on UXGA, so it's actually no surprise that 15khz looks crisper than 31khz.

Btw: we've got a thread here on the board which discusses the direct conversion from 480i to 240p using a simple Extron interface with sync processing. The video results shown there (Street Fighter 3 on a CRT) were breathtakingly good. I have managed to do the same here on an old CRT TV, but the XRGB would still see the output as 480i, so I dropped the idea for my own setup. Read up on it though !

PS: Here're the vids: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 69#p605569

[fagin]

Interesting read..... just picked up a cheap Extron RGB 580xi (£29). Look forward to seeing how this works for some 240p XBOX360 CAVE SHMUP shizz on my Arcade Cabs!

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Or you could go the 360 Scart cable route and use one of viletim's Scart to Jamma adapters to be able to play your favorite 360 games on a candy cab setup.

There is the other alternative method of using an 360 VGA cable and an Ultracade UVC (Universal Video Convetor) device which'll convert 480p signal to a workable 240p signal to be properly displayed on a true low-res 15kHz arcade monitor. You'd also need to hook up the UVC to a 56-pin Jamma fingerboard and you're in business. How cool is that?

Of course, both setups listed above will have you playing 360 games in 480i format on an arcade cab. Looks great being able to play the 360 port of Neo Trouble Witches on the ol' Egret II candy cab using a dual-res 15-24kHz Nanao MS9 monitor setup with an UVC + VGA cable + 360 console = priceless fun indeed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[fagin]

I took delivery of the Extron unit yesterday with some interesting results.

I will post up my thoughts and results over the next few days.

[fagin]

I have just gone through my entire library of 360 SHMUPS and to be blunt this Extron unit gives a truly stunning 240p type image on both of my tri-sync Arcade monitors.

Whilst I appreciate this is not a "proper" 240p image, it sure is as close as damn it in reality.

You can notice a minute amount of flicker..... but it really is minute and does not detract in any way from the image quality imo. You don't see it during the game and is only noticeable on some static images.

The colours and so bright / vivid and the image is so very PCB like with the full alternate scanlines present.

Thanks to Fudoh for pointing me in the direction of this series of unit. It was certainly worth the £29 and gives imo, that bit "extra" when hooking up your 360 to an arcade cab.

You may think why not use the SLG.... well (for the reasons that Fudoh has stated) a low res image (480i or 240p) provides a cleaner image in low-res (15khz) chassis mode on a tri-sync and you really see a difference in image quality. The image is more akin to a PCB in 15khz that's for sure. It makes that much of a difference to my eyes it is quite outstanding.

Obviously a picture speaks a thousand words and I need to get some images, along with some video to show you guys what this looks like in the flesh. I will try and get this sorted over the next couple of days. I will also explain my total set-up and connection options used, along with appropriate settings in the Extron RGB 580xi.

This solution will need a 15khz monitor to work (so it's no good for 31khz monitors).

[Fudoh]

nice to hear that this worked out. As mentioned in the original thread, I still don't understand shit about this conversion. It should not happen anyway, especially not with the DDSP switch to on (which should disable all sync processing and set the Extron to pure passthrough).

The difference between an actual 480i 15khz signal and a 240p signal is a half-line offset on the initial field, nothing less, nothing more.

The conversion basically works on all videogame titles which use a simple line offset to render 240p as 480i. Games like Sengoku Ace II or Dragon Blaze on the PS2 come to mind. The Metal Slugs as well. It doesn't work anymore though once processing or filtering is applied (or let's say, the Extron still converts to 240p, but it looks really bad).

One of the bigger mysteries of video game processing

[Fudoh]

Oh, and please give this a try on your Edge ! You have a XRGB2+ as well, right ?

I would be interested to see how the Edge reads the signal (and the XRGB2+). I did test this on a XRGB-3, but the XRGB would see 480i no matter which settings I applied to the Extron machine.

[RGB32E]

Oh, and please give this a try on your Edge ! You have a XRGB2+ as well, right ?

I would be interested to see how the Edge reads the signal (and the XRGB2+). I did test this on a XRGB-3, but the XRGB would see 480i no matter which settings I applied to the Extron machine.

The Exron RGB interfaces don't turn 480i to 240p... When I tested extron psuedo 240p the PVM I was using still sounded like it was displaying 480i, not 240p. The high pitch squeel from a SD CRT is a different pitch (frequency) when displaying 480i and 240p. My theory is that the Extron is just displaying one field instead of two, so the result looks sorta like 240p.

[fagin]

Fudoh,
I have tried the EDGE and it recognises the signal from the Extron as a 480i signal..... that answers that one then! I doubt there will be much point in me trying it on my XRGB-2+ as well.

[Fudoh]

thanks for the confirmation on the Edge!

I really think the Extron is not supposed to change the video to 240p. It probably creates a line offset on the odd fields which makes some monitors believe that they receive a 240p signal and hence display all fields without the interlacing line offset, making it look like a progressive signal.

My theory is that the Extron is just displaying one field instead of two, so the result looks sorta like 240p

that's actually not possible. The Extron units don't have a framebuffer, so they couldn't duplicate each other field. The number of fields in total in unchanged, the signal stays 15.x kHz after all.

[fagin]

OK... here with have some more information from my findings:

Using:

XBOX 360 with RGB SCART -> SCART to DSUB15 with Sync Cleaner -> Extron RGB 580xi -> BNC to DSUB15 -> Multisync Monitor as a 15khz signal

The only settings enabled (everything else switched off) on the Extron was to output a CSYNC signal.

Here is a video of the results -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKWSiOk2RYo

Whilst the video quality is far from "ideal", believe me when I say it looks more vivid and sharper than using VGA from the 360 to SLG3000 to the same monitor.

I don't see why this solution would not give the same resulst on a CRT TV, assuming you connected the output from the Extron to a SCART connector (and then in to the TV).

This will certainly be my preferred connection method to my Arcade cabs from the 360.

[Fudoh]

Whilst the video quality is far from "ideal"

While Ketsui (first in the video) might be a bad example because of the scaling applied to the original game's resolution, I would say that your results are pretty close to perfect with straight 320x240 titles. Titles like Futari or Galuda II which have the arcade graphics option (low res with strict linedoubling applied) should be as close to the PCB as possible.

[fagin]

Whilst the video quality is far from "ideal"

While Ketsui (first in the video) might be a bad example because of the scaling applied to the original game's resolution, I would say that your results are pretty close to perfect with straight 320x240 titles. Titles like Futari or Galuda II which have the arcade graphics option (low res with strict linedoubling applied) should be as close to the PCB as possible.

It's interesting you say that as I thought Ketsui looked really really nice! lol I will have to do a back to back with the PCB version.

Akai Katana certainly looks extremely nice with the Extron.

[Rossyra]

There currently are some 160xi for sale on eBay in the UK, description says he posts worldwide though

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 1698wt_905

[SGGG2]

but the XRGB would still see the output as 480i, so I dropped the idea for my own setup.

How difficult would it be to engineer a device that would allow the xrgb to see the signal as 240p? Is it really as simple as a line offset? I use GSM to boot ps2 games that have issues with 480p into 240. Nightshade has vertical shimmering at 480p but is totally solid at 240p. Not every game will work though.

[rugdoctor]

There currently are some 160xi for sale on eBay in the UK, description says he posts worldwide though

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 1698wt_905

Cheers for the headsup!

[Fudoh]

How difficult would it be to engineer a device that would allow the xrgb to see the signal as 240p?

easy, definitely. Should be quite doable by just checking the output section of an Emotia unit. The Emotia is split into two parts, the first one does a 31khz to 15khz conversion, the second easily switches between 480i and 240p and I'm sure that the actual 480i to 240p conversion is done with a simple analogue circuit which just delays the odd lines half a field.

[SGGG2]

Emotia's will accept a 480i signal over VGA/BNC? I thought it had to be progressive.

[Fudoh]

No they can't. What I meant was that the Emotia's second processing step is what you want and it should be easy to replicate that by somebody who knows what he's doing.

[Sparda]

If i have to choose between a 580xi and an Ultracade UVC, wich one do you think is the best for the conversion ?

[Fudoh]

The RGB interface will definitely give you the cleaner picture (since you go from 15khz to 15khz). I would only choose the UVC if you want a 24khz signal for an actual arcade monitor without heavy scanlines.

[Sparda]

thanks Fudoh

I just ordered one unit

XBOX 360 with RGB SCART -> SCART to DSUB15 with Sync Cleaner -> Extron RGB 580xi -> BNC to DSUB15 -> Multisync Monitor as a 15khz signal

I would like to know if the sync cleaner is needed ? Do i need to wait for the Sync Strike public release ? Or can i build one (any diagram are welcome ^^)

[fagin]

Yes.. Clean Sync required.

Sync Strike is on the verge of release. I have already tested the Extron with the Sync Strike. works fine.

[Sparda]

i received my 160xi yesterday, still waiting for the 580xi and the Sync Strike.....but i really want to try the extron, so im going to build a sync cleaner (the same you build for your cga2vga) today. So, my question is... Any settings required on the extron ? On front panel, theres 2 "switch" , id pin 4 & id pin 4...on the rear, theres a 3 position switch labelled"level/peak", position are "unity", "100%", "50%". And 4 switch just besides, first one labelled "sog" (sync on green ?), then "ddsp", "serr" and "spare"

I really dont want to fry it, so any help/advice are welcome

[rugdoctor]

Some useful gobbledigook about the 160xi (which I am figuring myself as well at the moment...)

http://media.extron.com/download/files/ ... i_RevD.pdf

[rugdoctor]

ok, hit a snag...setup:

Xbox1@480i to iscanpro to 160xi breaking out to R,G,B and S and wired up to corresponding RGBs on the 21pin scart input for the crt tv.

Result: black wavy screen with no picture. Tried it outputing RGBHV and that was fine on my computer monitor. Mess around with settings and still no joy. The tv detects a signal but no picture as if sync out is not working from the 160xi...

[Fudoh]

Be careful not to blow your monitor!

the iScan turns 15khz into 31khz while the 160xi is just a sync processor. So what you do is feeding 31khz progressive scan to a 15khz scart input. This could damage your TV.

You have to remove the iScan from your setup. Just go 480i -> Sync cleaner -> 160xi -> Scart TV.

[rugdoctor]

thanks! Will do. Monitor still going strong after misfeed. Ordered a sync strike pcb from the site and hopefully back in business in 2 weeks time. Thanks Fudoh!

[Sparda]

am i blind ? I cant see any "improvment", any "big scanlines" when my 360 is plugged on the Extron 160xi... Or maybe my unit is faulty ? I dont think so, Dragon Blaze looks definitely better on PS2... Maybe i must wait for the Extron 580... Im a bit dissapointed, i thought "nice big scanlines" would appeard with the 160xi, especially for Cave games on 360.0 but for now im sticking with my Emotia....

What about DDSP ? Do i need to turn it off or on ? With the 360, when its "OFF", theres nice scanlines, but screen is "blurry" and its "shaking"


Can we get any benefits from the emulators on Xbox ? For example, CoinOPS...the console output 480i, so the Extron must output "240p" ?