Extremely popular shmups you don't "get"

[neorichieb1971]

Most of the neo shooters. In fact the only i like is viewpoint and Strikers.

[Treasurance]

Ketsui
Mars Matrix
Armed Police Batrider
Battle Bakraid
Kamui
Donpachi
Dodonpachi
ESPrade
Dangun Feveron
Raiden series
All non-Cave horis
XOP BLAPCK

[gray117]

I never really got on with futari... I play it very rarely.

Objectively, and mechanically [enhanced with its use of audio] I think its a good game, but I just don't like it's aesthetic feel. Prefer the original mushihimesama over it - feel its a lot more concise. Noted I'm not someone who can play for scores.

And, as frustrating as it can be, I prefer the original ibara over both of these too - so I know I'm not of regular shmup 'profile-i-ness'.

[CptRansom]

Progear
Raizing/Yagawa games
Ketsui
ESPGaluda/II
Dragon Blaze
Guwange

Those are the first games to come to mind. I get why people enjoy them, but grasping anything beyond the most fundamental scoring techniques (and I'm pretty terrible at even the fundamentals!) is beyond me. Ketsui especially drives me nuts because I want to love it, but I just don't get it. I'm sure one day it'll click!

[Kollision]

agreed on futari
first mushi is my favorite cave game ever though

[omenaa]

ESP Ra.De
Gradius V
Zero Gunner 2.

[-SD-]

Radiant Silvergun, but I'm willing to give it another go after all these years when it finally comes out on XBLA. As for Ikaruga, it's not that I don't "get it", I'm just really, really crap at it.

[Deca]

Not sure how popular it actually is, but:

RAYSTORM

Seriously, every time I see people raving about it I'm completely baffled as to how they can PLAY the thing let alone enjoy it.

Beyond that ESP.ra.de doesn't really do anything for me at all. DDP isn't enjoyable for me at all anymore, I'm only still playing because I'm so close to the 1-all and once I get that it's not getting played for a good long time.

[stryc9]

Shikigami No Shiro II. There seems to be too much messing around with funny weapons that lack any punch, and the music will make your ears shut down.

Also TriggerHeart Excelica. Theres too much stuffing around with the anchor mechanism and not enough shooting. You know, I want to feel like I'm blowing the living shit out of everything, all of the time. And the actual guns are pea shooters so I find it difficult to justify playing this with so many better shooters around.

One pre requisite with shooters that I have is they must have a certain aural impact to the destruction that both these titles lack.
Thankyou.

[third_strike]

Ketsui

[Special World]

I don't understand the love of G.Rev in any way, shape or form.

Senko No Ronde: A great idea that plays terribly. It felt sluggish and unbalanced, random would ALWAYS give me the same character, some of the boss attacks seemed broken, etc.

Border Down: The border switching is a cool idea, but it breaks up the pace of the game way too much. The graphics are extremely sterile and lame, and the laser scoring doesn't do much for me.

Under Defeat: Every time I played it, it just made me want to play Zero Gunner 2. It seemed like an okay game, but there just wasn't much reason for me to play it. I watched some of a superplay DVD of this game, and it was the least exciting footage I'd ever seen.

Strania: The level designs are alright, and I like the sword. The weapon switching is hugely annoying, and it has one of the worst scoring systems of all time. Leveling up your weapons as a scoring system? Terrible. The boost mode or whatever could have been cool, but it's entirely too infrequent and doesn't seem to have a way of charging faster. Maybe I just didn't give myself enough time with it, but it gave me no reason to.

They seem extremely mediocre to me, and I find it hard to understand exactly what the appeal is. They don't seem good for scoring, but neither are they particularly visceral. Maybe people just like them as an alternative to Cave. I have no idea.

[spadgy]

R-type.

I do keep trying to fall for it though.

[MathU]

I have never understood Rayforce's mainstream popularity. It seems like the game is far too difficult and frustrating for it to ever have gotten as popular as it is (I see it mentioned far more often than, say, Elevator Action Returns, or Taito's crowning achievement, Darius Gaiden). Due to the ship's huge hitbox and large enemies and attacks, it is simply one of the most punishing and frustrating heavy memorizers out there. Was there an aggressive advertising campaign or something when it first came out? I don't see how the casual player could ever have found any appeal in it past the graphics and music--these are stellar, but then when you have to actually play the game... You have to devote some serious time (and frustration) to get anything out of it, and even a casual credit feeder would find it a hard-to-enjoy, laughable experience due to just how cheap the stuff it throws at you appears at first glance.

While I wouldn't say I don't "get" CAVE's popularity, I understand why they're so popular and feel it's nothing to be proud of.

Now as for Treasure's shooters, Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun, and Treasure games in general, I have never really been able to comprehend just how they've managed to develop such a dedicated cult fanbase. I just don't feel they make genuinely great games very often; most of the time they're mediocre or outright bad (especially their licensed stuff).

Finally there is Einhander, a shooter that does some new things but ends up thoroughly mediocre. I'm guessing it's only popular because of the company attached to it and the cinematics.

[Special World]

I think Treasure makes some really good games, but their pedigree as the only shooter dev that matters allows reviewers to constantly inflate their scores over what they should be.

Ikaruga: Pretty great
Alien Soldier: Pretty great
Gunstar Heroes: Pretty great
Bangai-O Spirits: EXTREMELY MEDIOCRE

Yet Bangai-O Spirits still became a critical darling because it's made by Treasure, and reviewers think they *should* like it.

While I wouldn't say I don't "get" CAVE's popularity, I understand why they're so popular and feel it's nothing to be proud of.

Why are deep scoring systems and excellent production values nothing to be proud of?

If you want to argue that most of their games are too similar then I might agree with you, but that's not why they're popular.

[Treasurance]

You shut up.
Bangai-O Spirits is the best handheld game ever.
I've played it for like 1000 hours and it still hasn't gotten boring.

[Zengeku3]

Battle Garegga
R-Type

Oh and I don't know how popular they are but...
Galaga and Space Invaders.

That's the only ones I can think of.

[Special World]

You shut up.
Bangai-O Spirits is the best handheld game ever.
I've played it for like 1000 hours and it still hasn't gotten boring.

I find half of the levels immensely boring. Pushing boxes, waiting for fuses, and navigating mazes are not how I want to spend my time when I play a shooter.

The levels that don't do that are okay, but I was never a big fan of those, either.

It's cool. Enjoy.

[Siren2011]

Deathsmiles. Played it once and hated it. Even though I had all of my lives by the fourth stage, I decided to play something else instead. That is saying something.

For one, the game is way too easy. Two, the monitor of the cab I played it on made it look like shit. It was a terrible way to pop my Deathsmiles cherry. With Espgaluda II, I hope to have the best experience possible when I first play it.

What is so spectacular about this game? Judging from appearances, the scoring system isn't that great, either. But I could find out I'm wrong if I spend more time with the game (which I feel absolutely no compulsion to do). Progear No Arashi remains my favorite horizontal scrolling shooter. It would take a lot for Akai Katana to take its spot.

[Special World]

This may not be your experience, but I thought Deathsmiles was completely mediocre when I first played it. I thought the scoring was too strict, the characters all seemed crap except for Rosa, the control felt loose, etc. I was not a huge fan at all, and ranked it as one of my least favorite Cave games. But then, after a bunch of people started posting that the sequel is a lot better than people say, I decided to play the first one again to tide me over until my order came in. I realized that I'd subtly and insidiously misunderstood the scoring the whole time, and then it clicked for me. I was able to get my powerups charged a lot more quickly, and I was having a lot of fun letting the crowns break into skulls and cause massive slowdown. I watched a superplay and learned the bomb-then-recharge trick, making the scoring even less restrictive. I learned to really appreciate the game. I still wish there was a rank 4 where you could start off with suicide bullets, since I don't like Black Label as much, but the game is one of Cave's best as far as I'm concerned. I can understand if it's a little easy for most people on this forum, because even playing all rank 3s I don't have any problems until cliff and castle, and I'm not that great.

It seems like some kind of memorization-fest at first, but really you just have to know the fundamentals of scoring and which enemies to kill with which shot, and that only takes a few minutes to learn. You may end up still disliking it, but I'd urge you to give it some more time. It's a really fun game, and I love the Halloween kitsch.

Also, try playing it in arcade mode if you get the 360 port. I seem to recall scoring in 360 mode being messed up, and for some reason I find the HD sprites in Deathsmiles to be fairly ugly, while the normal sprites look great.

[RNGmaster]

Never understood the appeal of G.rev. They seem like the Evangelion to CAVE's Gurren Lagann (oh god i swear never to make an anime analogy again), and when I play shmups I want things to be as over-the-top as possible. Not fond of XOP either, nor Mars Matrix.

obligatory touhou mention goes here

Oh and what the hell is going on in Pink Sweets? I've never liked the concept of uncontrollable rank, and scoring just seems dull. Not for me.

[cstle]

Never understood the appeal of G.rev. They seem like the Evangelion to CAVE's Gurren Lagann (oh god i swear never to make an anime analogy again), and when I play shmups I want things to be as over-the-top as possible. Not fond of XOP either, nor Mars Matrix.

This analogy is especially bad since both animes are from the same studio, and both are over the top in their own way

Anyways, I don't get horizontal shooters.

[captpain]

Ketsui
Mars Matrix
Armed Police Batrider
Battle Bakraid
Kamui
Donpachi
Dodonpachi
ESPrade
Dangun Feveron
Raiden series
All non-Cave horis
XOP BLAPCK

What a fascinating thread this is.

[Drum]

I think Treasure makes some really good games, but their pedigree as the only shooter dev that matters allows reviewers to constantly inflate their scores over what they should be.

Ikaruga: Pretty great
Alien Soldier: Pretty great
Gunstar Heroes: Pretty great
Bangai-O Spirits: EXTREMELY MEDIOCRE

Yet Bangai-O Spirits still became a critical darling because it's made by Treasure, and reviewers think they *should* like it.

While I wouldn't say I don't "get" CAVE's popularity, I understand why they're so popular and feel it's nothing to be proud of.

Why are deep scoring systems and excellent production values nothing to be proud of?

If you want to argue that most of their games are too similar then I might agree with you, but that's not why they're popular.

Ikaruga and Alien Soldier are extremely mediocre too. Treasure has always missed more than it has hit, but that's still better than most developers.

[Vyxx]

Everything Treasure has ever done.

The Galuda series.

[nZero]

Shikigami no Shiro III. Never played the first, mostly liked the second, the third feels like a complete mess.

Pretty much anything Cave has done after ESPGaluda and moving to CV1000 hardware. There's nothing bad about any of them, but I just don't understand the hype that Mushihimesama, Espgaluda II, DFK and the others get. DSMBL is the only one I can say that I enjoy enough in the long term to put on my top 25 list.

Edit - I was thinking of the IKD Cave games. Ibara, Kuro and Pork are all fantastic, while Pinksweets doesn't qualify as "extremely popular"

[mesh control]

Crimzon Clover.

It looks good

[Bananamatic]

Those tohou games by IOSYS

[Barrakketh]

Crimzon Clover.

It looks good

I agree with that. Objectively, there's nothing about CC that turns me off from it. On the other hand, for some reason I don't like playing it. I 1cc'd Original and haven't touched it since.

[Despatche]

I'd go on about dodonpachi again but I really don't feel like it

[trap15]

R-Type - It's fun, I guess, but it's nothing but memorization.
Viewpoint - Whatisthisisometricbullshit
Progear - Horizontals just aren't my jive, I guess
DoDonPachi DaiOuJou - I... just don't like it