Osama Bin Laden is dead

[adversity1]

[louisg]

It's probably very good for the government that, when a shady account of the event is presented, that a lot of people's minds jump to the most unlikely and contorted conclusion.

On the subject of the "just-asking-questions" line of evasive debate, it's like this: let's say you have a formula, 1+x = 2. But, let's say the only thing in the universe that can make this equal to 2 isn't 1, but some crazy conspiracy involving moonmen. Maybe you only state "hey, 1 plus something equals 2.. that's a perfectly rational suggestion!". But by stating that, even if you leave out x in an attempt to sound reasonable, the x (moonmen) is still implied.

[austere]

Like the turd that won't flush, adversitylost pops up again, reaction images and all.

Did you guys follow that? Even if I've proven that my position is true, I haven't disproven what austere is saying because his claim is only that the official narrative is not yet proven.

Correct! As of YET unproven. That's my point, too bad you didn't word it correctly. Whether you believe (key word) it is likely or not is your own business.

But I do think that Wikileaks as an organization has possibly done more to expose the inner workings of governments and further the cause of human rights than the UN has in 60 years

LOL, delusions beyond belief. Like a said, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Exactly at what level of secrecy, and in what department of the US government (you can speculate!) do you think the information that OBL was actually dead, has been held? And why would it not have been leaked?

I don't give a damn, knock yourself out. The US government is not the only one in the world and several are now on the record stating that they do not believe the official narrative. I don't blame them.

You just asked for a DNA test of a 12 year old girl and you are outraged when I call you a conspiracy theorist.

I gave you an example of concrete proof available to us, rather than a bunch of homevideos, outtakes, bunch of people confirming his death even though they weren't there (guess he's not returning their calls right, lol) and a bunch of pakis celebrating. Now the fact that you believe the latter is CONCRETE PROOF MEANS YOU'RE RETARDED. Plain and simple, your threshold for believing a narrative is as pretty low.

An independent interview with the girl followed by another with the other witnesses that corroborates the official narrative is proof enough for me, by the way. It's not that easy to get a child to lie consistently.

I guess a whole bunch of famous people telling you they saw the Loch ness monster is proof enough for you, though, right?

Do yourself a favour don't take up science or investigative journalism as a career. Like, ever.

"DNA test for a 12-year old girl, or it's all fucking bullshit!"

Thanks for saving me time by ending your post with your repeated raw sewage, proving you didn't understand a single word I said. Untermensch...

On the subject of the "just-asking-questions" line of evasive debate, it's like this: let's say you have a formula, 1+x = 2. But, let's say the only thing in the universe that can make this equal to 2 isn't 1, but some crazy conspiracy involving moonmen. Maybe you only state "hey, 1 plus something equals 2.. that's a perfectly rational suggestion!". But by stating that, even if you leave out x in an attempt to sound reasonable, the x (moonmen) is still implied.

Congratulations, you've just discovered the line of reasoning (though, with a flawed analogy to prove it, can't even get that part right!) that promotes religion.

Maybe one day you guys will turn off your televisions, put down the newspaper and read a book on logic and the limits of knowledge. Until then, your posts will no longer be dignified by a response from me.

[GaijinPunch]

Correct! As of YET unproven. That's my point, too bad you didn't word it correctly. Whether you believe (key word) it is likely or not is your own business.

By this account, nothing can really be proven then, unless everything is carried out by the observer.

[adversity1]

Hey that's weird, austere didn't reply to the part of my post where I quoted 5 organizations that are known Al-Queda collaborators mourning the death of bin Laden, including Al Queda itself. It's almost like he's not familiar with these organizations, or why they're noteworthy.

Correct! As of YET unproven. That's my point, too bad you didn't word it correctly. Whether you believe (key word) it is likely or not is your own business.

So all five of the organizations I brought up, including the Taliban's Quetta Shura and Al Queda, are lying? Because they would have to be if his death is not yet proven.

Exactly at what level of secrecy, and in what department of the US government (you can speculate!) do you think the information that OBL was actually dead, has been held? And why would it not have been leaked?

I don't give a damn, knock yourself out. The US government is not the only one in the world and several are now on the record stating that they do not believe the official narrative. I don't blame them.

I gave you an opportunity to make a case for which departments of the US government colluded to hide this knowledge from the public and you weren't able to. Just noting that.

You just asked for a DNA test of a 12 year old girl and you are outraged when I call you a conspiracy theorist.

I gave you an example of concrete proof available to us, rather than a bunch of homevideos, outtakes, bunch of people confirming his death even though they weren't there (guess he's not returning their calls right, lol) and a bunch of pakis celebrating. Now the fact that you believe the latter is CONCRETE PROOF MEANS YOU'RE RETARDED. Plain and simple, your threshold for believing a narrative is as pretty low.

bunch of people confirming his death even though they weren't there (guess he's not returning their calls right, lol) and a bunch of pakis celebrating.

a bunch of pakis celebrating.

"A bunch of Pakis", nice phrasing. Do I need to mention they aren't celebrating? lolol Oh are you talking about the Indians up there?

Maybe this is the core of your misunderstanding of terrorist organizations.

[austere]

Correct! As of YET unproven. That's my point, too bad you didn't word it correctly. Whether you believe (key word) it is likely or not is your own business.

By this account, nothing can really be proven then, unless everything is carried out by the observer.

Well, "proof" in factual matters is really a form of opinion (as with everything else in this universe). Hearsay does not exactly constitute a strong proof. A bunch of dubious terrorist organisations confirming it does not constitute a proof either (especially when such an announcement could be seen as being to their benefit). Eye witness corroboration would, so would DNA testing against the corpse/family members (it would be highly unlikely the child would be there otherwise). I mean, a dead body would have been all the proof in the world, but it was chucked out into the sea.

Even better would be a LIVING Bin Laden, who could be interrogated until all the future plans, networks and so on are spilled, completely destroying his organisation. How do you guys piece together that puzzle, especially given that the latest revision of the story presupposes his arrest before execution?

Just in case you think what I've listed is an exhaustive list of convincing proofs: it isn't. There's plenty of evidence still available, the apartment, if opened to independent investigators, would be filled with it. The blood stains, especially as well as the contents of the apartment. There's lots of ways, through transparency, that people can build up their confidence in the official narrative when it stabilises.

P.S. Strictly speaking an "observer" may not have a decidable system in their hands so even if we want an absolute proof we can't get it -- welcome to the universe.

[antron]

You need to stop and think about this. A house full of people left behind. Obama doesn't have a remote control on them. Who they really are is going to come out. Would he bet his entire presidency on them? People are really bad at gauging the very improbable when they want a particular outcome. It's people like you who make it possible to make money on intrade.

[adversity1]

Quoting from Wikipedia here, feel free to dispute the numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

Weeks after the attack, the number of deaths was estimated to be over 6,000,[65] but this turned out to be more than twice the number of actual confirmed dead. The city was only able to identify remains for about 1,600 of the victims at the World Trade Center. The medical examiner's office also collected "about 10,000 unidentified bone and tissue fragments that cannot be matched to the list of the dead".

Only 1,600 out of over 2,606 victims (from the twin towers) on 9/11 were ever identified. 10,000 unidentified bone and tissue fragments.

If we take austere's standards of proof to their logical conclusion, the other 1,006 victims simply aren't verified to be dead. Hey, their relatives may have never heard from them, they may never have been seen by anybody ever again, but come on, where's the DNA?? For all we know they're playing blackjack in Atlantic City.

[austere]

You need to stop and think about this

Can't stop, I'm in a hurry.

Would he bet his entire presidency on them? People are really bad at gauging the very improbable when they want a particular outcome

His presidency wasn't looking too good before hand, though I admit his rivals from the GOP weren't exactly looking great either.

Even if glaringly strange inconsistencies were to come out, they will be explained away by you guys. I mean even now we have a whole bunch of inconsistencies but people are willing to go along with it. Many witnesses in Abbottabad declined to agree with the official narrative -- even the few eyewitnesses I saw interviewed (well they didn't see anything but heard explosions and went to the scene of the crime).

Iran is making a claim here, for example and it's hardly being televised:

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=219861

Now they CLAIM it's accurate information but who knows. I certainly won't take Iran's word for it, given how much bullshit they peddle, but the USA is right up there with them, in fact it is much worse. Also, you will naturally argue that it is in Iran's interest to make the USA look bad.

Basically what we have here is a perspective filter, where every piece of new information is either explained away (since the official narrative CANNOT be wrong, given how much is at stake, by your argument) or confirms the official narrative. Much like a hardcore Islamist will find ways to prove that he's right as new information comes in. I would say Obama has little to worry about, except maybe when Fox news starts their bullshit machine back up, dragging the whole thing deeper into the sewer.

It's people like you who make it possible to make money on intrade.

Mmmhmm and it was overly confident people like yourself who were on the wrong side of the option trade when I made a lot of money in September 2008.

Basically you think it's a sure thing given how much is at stake and I would have been inclined to agree with you if I thought the US, its media and general population had any credibility remaining at all. I'd rather wait and see. I do hope they will be more transparent soon.

[jpj]

i don't know if you're aware of it, but stop using the word pakis, it's a derrogatory/racist term

[louisg]

On the subject of the "just-asking-questions" line of evasive debate, it's like this: let's say you have a formula, 1+x = 2. But, let's say the only thing in the universe that can make this equal to 2 isn't 1, but some crazy conspiracy involving moonmen. Maybe you only state "hey, 1 plus something equals 2.. that's a perfectly rational suggestion!". But by stating that, even if you leave out x in an attempt to sound reasonable, the x (moonmen) is still implied.

Congratulations, you've just discovered the line of reasoning (though, with a flawed analogy to prove it, can't even get that part right!) that promotes religion.

Maybe one day you guys will turn off your televisions, put down the newspaper and read a book on logic and the limits of knowledge. Until then, your posts will no longer be dignified by a response from me.

For one, I don't even have television. Then, are you implying I shouldn't read the news? Is that what you do? It would explain quite a bit. And, finally, I have studied logic, albeit somewhat briefly.

Third, I find it highly amusing that someone who considers themselves to be so well-versed in formal logic can't see the chain of events that would have to also be true in order to make their theory work. That was my point, and it seems to have been missed by a pretty long distance.

Right now, I'm just having a bit of fun

[neorichieb1971]

As President of this American nation, In the Capital Land of DC, I welcome you most regally.

we've got to verify it legally, to see

To see?

If he is morally, ethic'lly, Spiritually, physically

Positively, absolutely

Undeniably and reliably Dead

As President I must aver, I thoroughly examined him
And he's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.

Then this is a day of Independence For all the US citizens and their descendants


Yes, let the joyous news be spread The wicked Old Bastard at last is dead!


Quoted from Wizard of Oz with some changes

[austere]

i don't know if you're aware of it, but stop using the word pakis, it's a derrogatory/racist term

Oops!

Nah, I'm aware some of you are heavily into political correctness, but accept it as a contraction not a slur. Only in the anglo world can a perceived racial slur be offensive, but the launch of missiles from drones at the same people acceptable. "Kill them all, just don't shorten the word for their nationality!".

[louisg]

i don't know if you're aware of it, but stop using the word pakis, it's a derrogatory/racist term

Oops!

Nah, I'm aware some of you are heavily into political correctness, but accept it as a contraction not a slur. Only in the anglo world can a perceived racial slur be offensive, but the launch of missiles from drones at the same people acceptable. "Kill them all, just don't shorten the word for their nationality!".

Amazing. I now have to be "heavily into political correctness" to find racial slurs distasteful. I can't wait to find out how this is all validated by a physics equation that I couldn't possibly begin to understand

BTW, here's a hint: the same people who might find 'paki' to be offensive are not the same people saying 'kill 'em all'.

[austere]

louisg, if I didn't like you I wouldn't bother responding but I ask you read this reply carefully. Do excuse me if I sound pompous, but I am replying in kind as per the history of this thread.

For one, I don't even have television. Then, are you implying I shouldn't read the news? Is that what you do? It would explain quite a bit.

At one point in time, I WROTE the news. Some people still ask me for my analysis on certain issues. I even went into a (somewhat cold) war zone for an investigation once.

Like I said, put the newspaper down. Just because you're reading it doesn't mean you're getting any new, reliable information. It is merely a simulation of the events, real or not.

Skykid said that I'm well-read and it's true, but this is something I am actually ashamed of. I don't expect you to understand why, not yet anyway.

Third, I find it highly amusing that someone who considers themselves to be so well-versed in formal logic can't see the chain of events that would have to also be true in order to make their theory work.

The point is your proposed implications from the assumption (not theory, don't abuse that term) are not necessarily really implications.

Right now, I'm just having a bit of fun

Right now, I'm trying to help you understand this point so if you have fun doing so, I suppose it's a bonus for you.

BTW, here's a hint: the same people who might find 'paki' to be offensive are not the same people saying 'kill 'em all'.

That's fine, but I don't mean it like that and I call my Pakistani friends 'paki' all the time in HK, they use it themselves. "Racial slurs" are not universal. If you find it so offensive, I'll cease my use of it and type it out like above, sigh.

[GaijinPunch]

At one point in time, I WROTE the news. Some people still ask me for my analysis on certain issues. I even went into a (somewhat cold) war zone for an investigation once.

Wow. I'm such a sucker... as I only read news that's reported by people... not actually written by them.

That's fine, but I don't mean it like that and I call my Pakistani friends 'paki' all the time in HK, they use it themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iau-e6HfOg0

[austere]

Pray tell Paul, what is the word used in that video a contraction of?

Wow. I'm such a sucker... as I only read news that's reported by people... not actually written by them.

Try and make sense of the next two sentences and then you'll get why I worded it like that. There are events and then there is "THE" news...

[antron]

Very interesting. This is actually the only concrete evidence that we will possibly have available to us, but I await the release of these family members before I jump to any conclusions. There's supposedly an ISI release detailing Osama's 12 year old daughters version of events which contradict the US government's and makes them look bad as well.

In internet terms, is the ISI playing along and trolling?

We just have to wait and see, if they're indeed his family and confirm his death this year without being under duress, we can junk the other reports.

if I read that correctly it seems you have an endpoint. being a gambling man, tell me, what sort of odds would you like on this?

[austere]

I don't like attaching probabilities, these are concrete tools for analysis of repeatable events. That's said, I'll tell you what my gut feeling says. As long as the family/eyewitnesses remains accessible without too much delay (upon which the information is destroyed due to training and so on), I'd say the odd favour the official narrative at the moment. Ever so slightly.

[Skykid]

I have a master's degree in belittling sarcasm.

[antron]

I don't like attaching probabilities, these are concrete tools for analysis of repeatable events. That's said, I'll tell you what my gut feeling says. As long as the family/eyewitnesses remains accessible without too much delay (upon which the information is destroyed due to training and so on), I'd say the odd favour the official narrative at the moment. Ever so slightly.

what information? they were either married and living with OBL in 2011 in Pakistan or they weren't.

[GaijinPunch]

Pray tell Paul, what is the word used in that video a contraction of?

Does it matter? It's still an offensive word depending on who says it.. Rule of thumb: If you can't classify yourself as such, don't use said term. Works across the board for race, wealth, bill of health, etc...

[louisg]

Pray tell Paul, what is the word used in that video a contraction of?

Does it matter? It's still an offensive word depending on who says it.. Rule of thumb: If you can't classify yourself as such, don't use said term. Works across the board for race, wealth, bill of health, etc...

Yeah, I've had too many discussions with friends about why can't they use the N word, isn't that racist that some people can use it and others can't, etc etc. At the core, it's a question of whether the use is self deprecating or not. Anyway, I'm sure you don't intend to convey anything negative, like import collectors who say "jap" without understanding the history. With friends, when everyone is in on the joke and they don't mind, it's totally cool. With everyone else, you've gotta be careful.

[antron]

Pakistan grants U.S. access to bin Laden widows
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/ ... 1253.shtml

[dcharlie]

Basically what we have here is a perspective filter, where every piece of new information is either explained away (since the official narrative CANNOT be wrong, given how much is at stake, by your argument) or confirms the official narrative. Much like a hardcore Islamist will find ways to prove that he's right as new information comes in. I would say Obama has little to worry about, except maybe when Fox news starts their bullshit machine back up, dragging the whole thing deeper into the sewer.

Actually - if the conspiracy that Bin Laden has been dead since 2001 and the GOP government knew about it and used it to conduct illegal wars then they might not want to poke the behive.

Again, i find it interesting that The Fox/Right angle has rapidly switched from "show us the photos!" to "I've heard that Obama didn't make any calls at all and his handler had to do it because he's a weak president.... do i know? no, but the questions out there"

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Pray tell Paul, what is the word used in that video a contraction of?

Does it matter? It's still an offensive word depending on who says it.. Rule of thumb: If you can't classify yourself as such, don't use said term. Works across the board for race, wealth, bill of health, etc...

This is something ive learned myself this passed few days due to my ranting in that other thread It doesnt matter how many disclaimers one puts up, racist word is a racist word. I felt very ashamed of myself the following day when Ild sobered and lost that chip on my shoulder for over the top PC. As someone who isnt a racist and has no problem moderate peaceloving muslims and acceptting asylum seekers into the UK (not unskilled labourers though) I really couldnt of phrased it all in a worse way

[BulletMagnet]

Again, i find it interesting that The Fox/Right angle has rapidly switched from "show us the photos!" to "I've heard that Obama didn't make any calls at all and his handler had to do it because he's a weak president.... do i know? no, but the questions out there"

They "rapidly switch to" the some say and so I've heard and just asking garbage the second somebody else takes power. How many people still think that Vince Foster was murdered?

[dcharlie]

They "rapidly switch to" the some say and so I've heard and just asking garbage the second somebody else takes power. How many people still think that Vince Foster was murdered?

i like the "... many people on the internet are asking..." line myself, like the internet is some fountain of ultimate truth and asks all the right questions!

How long until Obama is asked "Can i has cheeseburger? - many people on the internet are asking and the president has been weak on the cheeseburger issue. He clearly has no policy/flip flopped on this" ?

Does it matter? It's still an offensive word depending on who says it.. Rule of thumb: If you can't classify yourself as such, don't use said term. Works across the board for race, wealth, bill of health, etc...

yup - there's a question of intent and context as well. Amongst close friends in certain situations where it's an established thing is fine but once out in the public arena if you address a whole race as "pakis" (though for the British derogatory usage this seems to apply to anyone no matter where they are from - i've seen it used against chinese people which blew my mind) or "japs" for whatever reason it's inviting a negative reaction. Like it or not there is a history of usage with some of these contractions.

[BPzeBanshee]

Pray tell Paul, what is the word used in that video a contraction of?

Does it matter? It's still an offensive word depending on who says it.. Rule of thumb: If you can't classify yourself as such, don't use said term. Works across the board for race, wealth, bill of health, etc...

This is something ive learned myself this passed few days due to my ranting in that other thread It doesnt matter how many disclaimers one puts up, racist word is a racist word. I felt very ashamed of myself the following day when Ild sobered and lost that chip on my shoulder for over the top PC. As someone who isnt a racist and has no problem moderate peaceloving muslims and acceptting asylum seekers into the UK (not unskilled labourers though) I really couldnt of phrased it all in a worse way

I couldn't care less about the word but the connotations people put onto it.

Trev I reckon your point you stated in the other thread however embarrasing you felt about it was completely fair and I'm certain in some internet forum somewhere some Muslim person is probably complaining about the exact reverse using exactly the same choice of language. Doing a turnabout view on it as soon as someone feels butthurt about is only going to make your views less valid then what they already are - this happens often enough with politicians that change their views on a whim like their life's on the line. In fact IMO a lot of the doubting going on in this thread is predominantly due to turnaround views on matters.

[austere]

Does it matter? It's still an offensive word depending on who says it.. Rule of thumb: If you can't classify yourself as such, don't use said term. Works across the board for race, wealth, bill of health, etc...

Yeah, I could go with that in theory. On the other hand, had I called them "brown mudslime subhumans" you'd have a case (and even then it could be used in irony like here), but as it stands, I suspect some people want to derail the ongoing debate and turn the thread into political correctness 101.

What I find offensive (and you may call this a tired old point but it's very much valid) is the fact that you assume a "white person" (or, more consistently/less racist, a person not of the mentioned race) using a certain contraction of a word necessarily implies that they are being racist, while for anyone else it's open season. Do you not find that offensive or at least disingenuous?

In the police state of the UK, I think you can get arrested on this basis, heh. For using a word publicly. It's terrible that things have progressed to this point and a counter-motion is something I desire.

I felt very ashamed of myself the following day when Ild sobered and lost that chip on my shoulder for over the top PC. As someone who isnt a racist and has no problem moderate peaceloving muslims and acceptting asylum seekers into the UK (not unskilled labourers though) I really couldnt of phrased it all in a worse way

Perhaps it's quite offensive in the UK, no such connotations exist here, your new set of adopted morals are not universal. It's just a word, you haven't made the connotation. Not everyone is politically correct, I certain am not.

Doing a turnabout view on it as soon as someone feels butthurt about is only going to make your views less valid then what they already are

To be fair to him, I think he's genuinely feeling guilty (a sure sign of moralising!) about it, having swallowed the politically correct koolaid. They try to brainwash kids into it at schools in glorious Australia, but it ultimately fails. Actually being politically correct and using euphemisms to dodge direct adjectives here is a sure way of getting beat up as I'm sure you've witnessed.