Osama Bin Laden is dead

[louisg]

Aren't they going to release the DNA evidence that they have? Also, is there a reason Bin Laden wouldn't just pop up and say "ha ha you didn't get me"? Wouldn't that require some serious collusion? It's good to be skeptical, but it has to be a practical theory.

Until the USA can prove they got him by conclusive evidence, the possibility still stands. You can scream "We shot him in the face, then dumped his body in the sea! We got him, we rule!" at the top of your lungs until you're all blue in the face, but you're only going to look stupid if he suddenly appears in a video or photograph holding up his DNA documents, and a sign with "LMAO, YOU MISSED ME, AMERICAFAGS" written on it. Heck, there's a possibility he could do it after some proof is released, which would make things very interesting indeed.

I hope DNA evidence is released, at the very least. It'll put the whole thing to rest.

OK so I think that leaves these possibilities to choose from (for the sake of argument):

- He's actually dead

- They killed a double instead and there are a bunch of people right now sitting around going, "Crap, we told everyone we got him.. WTF do we do now?!"

- The Obama administration thinks they can lie about it for a short-term popularity boost and that it won't bite them in the ass when Bin Laden is found to actually be alive

.. any others?

[neorichieb1971]

I've been a skeptic since the news broke, and the lack of proof doesn't make believing anything any easier. If you did guys did manage to gank him, then good, but I find the wild celebrations a little premature, and partying should only begin when some kind of conclusive proof is presented to the world, irrespective of whether or not it'll enrage the suicidal, C4-clad whackjobs out there.

mind telling us your whole theory? i mean, if he's alive don't you think he'll let the world know? you don't think the white house thought of that?

In 6 weeks time a new tape might emerge with his voice, video or whatever on it. Who do you believe then?


Some guy earlier in this thread said people hate America (USA) on this forum. Let me make something perfectly clear. It is American USA politics that are questioned here, it has nothing to do with the people. The biggest thing that separates people like me from most American citizens is that I don't believe what most governments throw at you these days. The news of OBL being dead didn't spur a frenzy of parties this side of the Atlantic and we hated what he did just as much as you guys. The party is premature and taken purely on faith. We have as much proof of OBL being dead as we do of Santa Claus being real.

[Skykid]

Let me get this straight. You think Al Qaeda did it. You don't think bin Laden did it. That must mean you don't think bin Laden was an influential leader in Al Qaeda before the attack. You also think that every single video and audio recording of him claiming responsability (or influence over) that attack were likely faked (highly dubious you say) , and that not a single intelligence agency of any country in the world has been able to figure that out. right?

Please stop asking me to repeat things over and over. Just re-read the paragraph you quoted, it makes sense.

In answer to your question, if footage of Bin Laden was faked, such as the cave video that doesn't have him in it, of course I would expect the intelligence agencies to know. I'd assume they're the ones who made it.

I'm about given up on trying to explain why I'm not happy with the lack of evidence over this death. I'm absolutely baffled that folk aren't absolutely outraged at the total lack of transparency.

You might be totally happy for the President to stand at his lectern and say "we got him folks, show's over," and see absolutely nothing to back it up. I'm not.
It's gone precisely the way I expected it to go: no evidence.

OK so I think that leaves these possibilities to choose from (for the sake of argument):

- He's actually dead

- They killed a double instead and there are a bunch of people right now sitting around going, "Crap, we told everyone we got him.. WTF do we do now?!"

- The Obama administration thinks they can lie about it for a short-term popularity boost and that it won't bite them in the ass when Bin Laden is found to actually be alive

.. any others?

He's BEEN DEAD FOR YEARS. Isn't that the most plausible option of them all?

[Udderdude]

.. any others?

That he died in Dec. 2001 and everything since then has been a puppet show. Including his recent "Death". Which is so badly acted and staged that even non-skeptical people are starting to look at it as a fake.

[Skykid]

.. any others?

That he died in Dec. 2001 and everything since then has been a puppet show. Including his recent "Death". Which is so badly acted and staged that even non-skeptical people are starting to look at it as a fake.

^ Where the fuck have you been all this time?

[louisg]

.. any others?

That he died in Dec. 2001 and everything since then has been a puppet show. Including his recent "Death". Which is so badly acted and staged that even non-skeptical people are starting to look at it as a fake.

And the Bush folks were too dumb to use "we got Bin Laden!" in their campaign? I mean, they're stupid, but I don't think they're that stupid. They probably would have trotted that out when they sensed they were losing power if that were the case.

Also, if that were the case, then why would Bin Laden (or his puppet/double/whatever) ever pop up again in 6 months time as people are predicting?

[antron]

Until the USA can prove they got him by conclusive evidence, the possibility still stands. You can scream "We shot him in the face, then dumped his body in the sea! We got him, we rule!" at the top of your lungs until you're all blue in the face, but you're only going to look stupid if he suddenly appears in a video or photograph holding up his DNA documents, and a sign with "LMAO, YOU MISSED ME, AMERICAFAGS" written on it. Heck, there's a possibility he could do it after some proof is released, which would make things very interesting indeed.
.

all this shows is that you think the white house is fucking retarded.

He's BEEN DEAD FOR YEARS. Isn't that the most plausible option of them all?

besides having him in a cell, this is the only alternative explanation, and could still backfire if his body was about somewhere. that means the white house would have to know that his body was completely gone. how could they know that unless they had blown it up (or knew that someone had)?

[Icarus]

all this shows is that you think the white house is fucking retarded.

All governments are run by idiots. What makes the White House any different?
If they wanted to be true heroes, they would have released proof with the original announcement. At this point in time, however, they're on equal footing with Sony in terms of PR cock-ups.

[Skykid]

He's BEEN DEAD FOR YEARS. Isn't that the most plausible option of them all?

besides having him in a cell, this is the only alternative explanation, and could still backfire if his body was about somewhere. that means the white house would have to know that his body was completely gone. how could they know that unless they had blown it up (or knew that someone had)?

I'm not asking you to become a conspiracy theorist, I'm asking you to become a realist.

You're not giving your government enough credibility in terms of what they're capable of. In fact, you're pandering to an argument that paints them as completely inept buffoons who can't track down one middle eastern bloke in eleven years.

You don't need to believe that the queen is a lizard, that George Dubya flew a remote controlled drone into the World Trade Center. All you need to do is allow the possibility that the US government used Bin Laden as face, an entity of evil, to prolong an unnecessary war that was as much about oil as terrorism. The chances that he was dead and his body long gone soon after 9/11 is entirely possible. If the man held responsible for the attacks was announced dead within 6 months, support for an illegal war in Iraq and a total mess in Afghanistan wouldn't be as easy to rally.

Does that theory hold any weight with you?

[louisg]

You don't need to believe that the queen is a lizard, that George Dubya flew a remote controlled drone into the World Trade Center. All you need to do is allow the possibility that the US government used Bin Laden as face, an entity of evil, to prolong an unnecessary war that was as much about oil as terrorism. The chances that he was dead and his body long gone soon after 9/11 is entirely possible. If the man held responsible for the attacks was announced dead within 6 months, support for an illegal war in Iraq and a total mess in Afghanistan wouldn't be as easy to rally.

That doesn't answer my questions above though. Why would Bush have sat on this huge news as his popularity slid into the shitter? We were already in the two needless wars that he wanted at that point. What would he have to lose by announcing that he got Bin Laden, vs. what he would have to gain? Why would he not want to secure the Republican re-election and then, after that, leave that get-out-of-deep-shit-free card for his rival?

I'm willing to accept that Bin Laden might not be a very important target aside from symbolism, and I know the wars are bullshit. It's been theorized many times before that he was already dead and the tapes released were forgeries or fakes. But this theory about Bin Laden being dead since 2001 isn't making very much political sense.

Lastly, this conspiracy has a hallmark of all conspiracies: the government is run by complete morons who can't tie their shoes, which explains the poor strategy of it. But somehow their competence is second to none when it comes to keeping a lid on something of this magnitude for over a decade. It can't be both ways.

[Skykid]

Lastly, this conspiracy has a hallmark of all conspiracies: the government is run by complete morons who can't tie their shoes, which explains the poor strategy of it. But somehow their competence is second to none when it comes to keeping a lid on something of this magnitude for over a decade. It can't be both ways.

The government is not run by morons at all (if there was any strategic deception, it certainly wasn't manufactured by Dubya). Quite the opposite: 95% of people having been buying the shit they've been shovelling for years and years, that's no mean feat.

That doesn't answer my questions above though. Why would Bush have sat on this huge news as his popularity slid into the shitter? We were already in the two needless wars that he wanted at that point. What would he have to lose by announcing that he got Bin Laden, vs. what he would have to gain? Why would he not want to secure the Republican re-election and then, after that, leave that get-out-of-deep-shit-free card for his rival?

I'm willing to accept that Bin Laden might not be a very important target aside from symbolism, and I know the wars are bullshit. It's been theorized many times before that he was already dead and the tapes released were forgeries or fakes. But this theory about Bin Laden being dead since 2001 isn't making very much political sense.

The answer to that question is staring you in the face. It's all a matter of timing. Look at the clock, it's been ten years. The US is strapped for cash and needs to close the doors on the theatre of war. The 'idea' of the Bin Laden manhunt has served its purpose. It's time to bring closure to it now, but it wasn't while Bush was still in power.

I'm willing to bet that in the coming months the US will begin a process of withdrawing its military personnel from the far east. It's time to go, it's over. What better way to signify this to your public: Tell 'em you capped Bin Laden, but you're not going to be crude enough to show them the evidence.

[GaijinPunch]

The biggest thing that separates people like me from most American citizens is that I don't believe what most governments throw at you these days.

Yeah, b/c everyone in America believes what the government says.
Wha...?

[Udderdude]

.. any others?

That he died in Dec. 2001 and everything since then has been a puppet show. Including his recent "Death". Which is so badly acted and staged that even non-skeptical people are starting to look at it as a fake.

And the Bush folks were too dumb to use "we got Bin Laden!" in their campaign? I mean, they're stupid, but I don't think they're that stupid. They probably would have trotted that out when they sensed they were losing power if that were the case.

Because it was due to complications from kidney failure, not a US-fired bullet in his head. If they didn't kill him, and he died of natural causes, the next best thing is to keep trotting out his ghost to keep the "war on terror" hot. The first fake Bin Laden video had like a zillion things wrong with it (he had a ring on his hand, writing with the wrong hand, etc).

[CMoon]

Just keep in mind any cover up requires dozens, hundreds or even thousands of people to keep a secret; something I know people can't do very well.

I'd also add, if Osama has either been dead all this time or locked in a cell, why hasn't al-Qaeda come forth at any point in the last 10 years blasting the US for propaganda/lies? Of course, if you are going to go this far, maybe al-Qaeda itself is a lie.

I am not saying that the current story is necessarily true--I've often wondered if Osama was just an actor, but at least keep in mind what's required for these sort of things to actually work.

Incidentally, and I'm not saying this about anyone here, but I generally hate where the conspiracy paths lead: basically everyone is stupid, we're all going to be put in FEMA prison camps shortly, all science is a lie, and of course, ultimately, that the world is run by the illuminati, which are run by aliens which live in the hollow earth. Osama never existing, or being held in a cell for 10 years is a LONG way from that, but I know the kind of people who love to say this sort of thing, and I know ultimately where it's gonna lead to. Bleargh!

[Acid King]

He's either dead or in a cell. I doubt the US government will be the only one coming out and saying this, as I'm sure every government conducting terror investigations will be picking up chatter from al Qaeda cells that will confirm it, especially since the courier he relied on was supposedly killed as well. There's no denying a raid took place, so unless they raided a house, killed some people, and blew up a helicopter to accomplish nothing other than pissing of Pakistan, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet he's dead.

[Randorama]

Repetita iuvant.

Some interesting but long read

A quote (not so in context) from the above article.

"Most of these clerics and former militants, of course, have not suddenly switched to particularly progressive forms of Islam or fallen in love with the United States (all those we talked to saw the Iraqi insurgency as a defensive jihad), but their anti-Al Qaeda positions are making Americans safer. If this is a war of ideas, it is their ideas, not the West's, that matter".

Again, my guess is that Osama bin Laden as a "public face" of the Al-Qaeda network fell out of disgrace a while ago, and different groups wanted his head (fake or real) to fall. Feeding an out-of-grace boss to the enemy is a good way to muddle waters, to put it on a very simplistic note. It makes everyone happy and able to push forward the agenda, regardless of the truth of the facts.

More in general, my guess is the whole Islamic world (vast simplification) is going through some strong changes, not necessarily for the good, and this is but one further external display of this change. Westerners (Anglos, really) can beat their chest or demand proof shoved up their photoreceptors, but I doubt this will influence outcomes, or that the big Western Democracies have a causal weight on this.

My further guess, since I am not really for conspiracies (that's behaviorist stuff) is that, say, M15 and CIA know this very well, and aside the "wooh me winz" done by the PRs (the room of fools posted above) to appease the masses, they are probably scratching their head about who they may have killed, and why they were able to do so. Surprisingly, the world does not revolve around the Wal-Mart/Woolsworths kingdoms.

but I know the kind of people who love to say this sort of thing, and I know ultimately where it's gonna lead to

I suddenly had in mind Mel Brooks as an inquisition monk, singing "Eu-genics, what it is!" and so on! Let's sing along!

[louisg]

All of this requires that both parties agree completely, and that the change of power is nothing more than an elaborate song and dance to placate the public. You're supposing that the Republican party did not care who is in the White House next because it is essentially the same conspiratorial body. Without that, the entire theory falls apart.

Well, if it's a choice between a somewhat shady official account and a conspiracy I could drive a friggin' gas-guzzling Hummer H2 through, I think I'll go with the official account until the conspiracy fixes a few problems with its story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZI_aEalijE
(sigh)

(BTW, you guys do know Bin Laden doesn't have much to do with Iraq, right? I think even the public at large realizes this now. This would only matter for the Afghanistan occupation)

[BulletMagnet]

BTW, you guys do know Bin Laden doesn't have much to do with Iraq, right? I think even the public at large realizes this now.

Not nearly enough of them, though they've been misled (and continue to be misled) on far more bone-simple matters than that.

[neorichieb1971]

The biggest thing that separates people like me from most American citizens is that I don't believe what most governments throw at you these days.

Yeah, b/c everyone in America believes what the government says.
Wha...?

Myself and Skykid are getting alot of flack saying we don't believe them. Obviously they are not in agreement

[antron]

The biggest thing that separates people like me from most American citizens is that I don't believe what most governments throw at you these days.

Yeah, b/c everyone in America believes what the government says.
Wha...?

Myself and Skykid are getting alot of flack saying we don't believe them. Obviously they are not in agreement

I think it scares the shit out of both of you to think for a minute that you are sheep just like the rest of us, so you seek a way to convince your self that you are not.

But I'm not a sheep because I vote, and governments do change hands to people who are not part of 30 year conspiracies to spend billions of dollars in Afghanistan to pump oil in Iraq (wtf).

Insert skykid's "keep on dream'n that buddy!" post

[CMoon]

Actually, whether neorichieb1971 and Skykid are correct or not (they could be, I'm just as suspicious as anyone), they are still just as much 'sheep' as the rest of us. They still go to work, pay taxes, buy goods/commodities. This is the real joke about stuff like Alex Jones or any real conspiracy. Get mad! Stand up for your rights! Take your government back!

I haven't seen Alex Jones leading the revolution. He is just another form of entertainment. So, maybe you think this Osama business is a cover-up. Maybe you're a 9/11 truther. Maybe you think the US is hiding the reality of extra-terrestrial aliens among us. But beyond the words, everyone still does the same thing. Work, Eat, Buy, Fuck (make more workers), Get Taxed, etc. How does 'talk' make one not a sheep?

[antron]

I didn't say their desperate attempts were working. But it's purely a matter of self perception anyway.

In answer to your question, if footage of Bin Laden was faked, such as the cave video that doesn't have him in it, of course I would expect the intelligence agencies to know. I'd assume they're the ones who made it.

all the agencies, in every modern country?!

[Barrakketh]

I'm more amused by the fact that they don't trust the government to tell the truth, but trust them enough to not falsify evidence to support what the government says. That or they don't trust them on either account, in which case their mind is set and what they're asking for wouldn't change anything.

I'm starting to think the only way you could convince Skykid et al would be to fish up Osama's corpse and force them to skull-fuck it. I suppose it's a good thing one of the SEALs made a convenient entry hole, eh? That was the most disgusting thing I've written in years

[Kakizaki]

The biggest thing that separates people like me from most American citizens is that I don't believe what most governments throw at you these days.

Yeah, b/c everyone in America believes what the government says.
Wha...?

Myself and Skykid are getting alot of flack saying we don't believe them. Obviously they are not in agreement

Maybe the "flak" is due to the manner in which these opinions have been expressed and not the opinions themselves? Not sure that IQ comment was going to do SK any favors or that it was warranted - especially after whining about the marginalization of opposing points of view.

louisg already commented on it, but I was completely floored by the ludicrous comment thrown out by Skykid concerning why the Bush administration wouldn't have played the Osama card if they would have been able to. For someone that seems to constantly bang the der, der, der, Americans are sheep / naive drum, he has a piss poor picture of the political landscape in the U.S.

[adversity1]

I'm more amused by the fact that they don't trust the government to tell the truth, but trust them enough to not falsify evidence to support what the government says. [/size]

Wording is a bit convoluted here, but this is an excellent point which I await shmups Off-topic Mideast Affairs expert Skykid's pointed response to.

1. American government can assassinate OBL in 2001 and keep his death hidden for 10 years while justifying an extremely complex war that involves millions of people, and has seen significant whistle-blowing.

2. When Bradley Manning steals the entire content of American diplomatic cables for the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts, dumps them to Wikileaks who release them over a period of months, there is NO mention of an Osama death cover-up. Instead what we read about is Hilary Clinton and others doing their best to diplomatically corner Pakistan to gain assistance on locating Osama. Conspiracy!!!1

3. US government is fully capable of keeping his actual death 10 years ago a secret for a decade, but when they finally get around to "faking an operation" this week to claim they've killed him, are not capable of faking some photos of his death to give evidence.

Skykid, Icarus, Udderdude etc., the conclusion above is what your "skeptical inquiries" inevitably lead to.

In other news, the support for Bin Laden after his "martyrdom" in the Middle East, mysteriously, continues unabated!

Guys, do you remember Salman Taseer? He was the Pakistani governor who opposed the implementation of blasphemy laws and was assassinated for it. After his death, an association of Peshawar lawyers held a rally in support of his murder. Guess what they're protesting now?

http://tribune.com.pk/story/161642/lawy ... n-killing/

ABBOTTABAD: Groups of lawyers on Wednesday held protests over the US killing of al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, denouncing America and saying prayers for their “hero”.
About 70 lawyers staged a rally in Abbottabad, condemning the US operation in their city, witnesses said.

We also have Lashkar-e-Taiba, who I mentioned earlier, coming off their exciting protests against the killing, now holding prayers for Bin Laden in Pakistan.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/160762/let- ... -pakistan/

“Osama bin Laden was a great person who awakened the Muslim world,” Saeed’s spokesman Yahya Mujahid quoted him as saying during prayers at the headquarters of the LeT’s charity in Lahore on Monday.
“Martyrdoms are not losses, but are a matter of pride for Muslims”, Saeed said. “Osama bin Laden has rendered great sacrifices for Islam and Muslims, and these will always be remembered.”
Amidst shouts of “Down with America” and “Down with Obama”, around 1,000 of Saeed’s followers held prayers in Karachi.
“May Allah accept the sacrifice of Osama bin Laden,” local leader of Let’s charity, Naveed Qamar, said at the prayers.

These are the folks who organized the massacre of Indian civilians in Mumbai if you forgot.

I already mentioned Ismail Haniyeh's protest of the US assassination of OBL and description of him as a "holy warrior" here:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/hamas-condemns ... 39788.html

Though he noted doctrinal differences between bin Laden's al Qaeda and Hamas, Haniyeh said: "We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We ask God to offer him mercy with the true believers and the martyrs."

Small rallies were also held in Gaza protesting the US operation.

So...my question to you fine scholarly gentleman is the following: why would all of these extremist islamist groups be so upset about the killing of Bin Laden if he's not actually dead? Or if he's already been dead for 10 years? Are they just sheeple with bad information like the rest of us? What will it take to convince these upstanding folks of your diligently internet-researched speculations?

Bonus points if you answer in Urdu or Arabic!

[Blackbird]

I don't think Skykid's opinion is necessarily wrong. We should be skeptical. The circumstances are strange. Why wouldn't they take concrete proof of the death of public enemy number one?

However, I for one believe that he is dead. As others have astutely pointed out, all Bin Laden has to do is leak a video of himself saying "I'm still alive!" and suddenly the US government loses face in international politics on a massive scale. It would also incur the intense rage of it's own betrayed citizens who haven't gotten their closure after all because their government lied to them. I feel that this assertion constitutes an enormous risk to the government. Either they have factual evidence of his death, or else have strong evidence and sincerely believe that he is dead. Intentionally lying about his death when they know that he is still alive is simply too great a risk to take - if it's exposed, it's catastrophic.

Now, perhaps there might be something worth that risk. It's technically possible that he's still alive, and that the US has taken him prisoner. There is a strategic advantage in misleading our enemies into believing that he is already dead, when we might be able to interrogate him for information and track down other members of his organization. I don't think that Bin Laden would allow himself to be taken alive, though.

Could Bin Laden have been dead for a long time already? If that's the case, who did they kill now? Why are the al-Qaeda sympathizers mourning for him? There is no need for this sort of reaction if no one "important" was killed. Did the US government choreograph the mass mourning of al-Qaeda sympathizers to convince us that Bin Laden is dead? That sounds completely absurd - a conspiracy on that level seems impossible.

If Bin Laden was already killed a long time ago, we would have heard about it. Bush would have used it to prop up his popularity. Obama was extremely popular early in his term. I don't think he would take the risk on concealing an enormous and dangerous secret like this on the off chance he lost support later just so that he could have an "ace in the hole". It would have gotten out. If not from a leak in our own government, then certainly from al-Qaeda's actions/movements.

The only remaining talking point is if the US government prevented this from getting out sooner because it would undermine popular support for the wars in the middle east. As soon as Bin Laden is dead, many Americans would see that as victory in the war on terror, and a signal that we can finally bring our troops home. We got the guy we came for, so all our effort and bloodshed over there wasn't wasted, and we can finally leave without losing face. Anti war sentiment has been extremely high for a long time, though. I really think, if the government was doing this, there would have been a whistleblower among those who hated the pretense of the middle eastern wars.

I'm skeptical too. I'll even agree that the timing of this event appears extremely convenient. Obama's up for re-election, and this also makes a convenient "closing chapter" on the wars in the middle east as the US has finally decided that it is the right time to withdraw troops from the region. However, I think that if you examine the event from several perspectives, it just seems impossible for this event to be staged. The timing is a convenient coincidence, and nothing more.

[Randorama]

Just one thing:

In other news, the support for Bin Laden after his "martyrdom" in the Middle East, mysteriously, continues unabated!

Judging by your links (and by my previous one), I wouldn't say it is completely unabated. In the Hamas comment, I read between the lines something like "thanks, someone had to remove that idiot, because our brand of Jihad is the right one, but of course we mourn a jihadist in the name of official unity". I'd say that the other "supporters" made similar remarks...

Just to play the devil's advocate, I would be very suspicious of actual footage of a Seal operation. Any government that would sell away their secret corps in action must hide something bigger, for sure. Maybe some excellent stuntmen (e.g. Ben Stiller, Charlie Sheen) were hired to stage a fake, ultra-cool snipe-in? Honestly, I am "suspicious" on one thing, the burial at sea. I guess that seals could have quickly take samples of DNA before shooting the corpse, though. Whether it is true or not counts nix, in the grand scheme of things.

In other words, once one trims down the possible options to announce such a news without generating suspicion in anyone, the chances that everybody will accept the news fall in the negative numbers. First, because having a 100% transparent presentation of the facts would not be wise for a government, "good" or "bad" that it is. Second, because a lot of the individual and collective "interests" on this fact, whether it is true or false, revolve on siding with one faction (whatever it may be), rather than successfully ascertain whether a goal has been met or not (in English: whether we can truthfully say "we won/lost a battle!"). You can't win arguments with humans, especially not with facts, and especially when facts are not clear, Jerry Fodor's grandma said.

Bonus points if you answer in Urdu or Arabic!

Don't, please. The rest of the post made perfect sense.

[dcharlie]

I can guarantee one thing - if they'd wheeled out a corpse, showed pictures, showed DNA results, and ran the video of the operation - with multiple confirmations from the muslim and US side that Bin Laden was indeed dead then we would STILL be having this conversation. Maybe not with Skykid - but someone would step up to the plate (probably would have been Skykid )

The only difference would be everything paraphrased with "all the evidence is fake" - hell , a couple of people who have seen the photo are crying fake already ("i know pixels and i've seen photoshops before..." the usual dross)

[GaijinPunch]

I can guarantee one thing - if they'd wheeled out a corpse, showed pictures, showed DNA results, and ran the video of the operation - with multiple confirmations from the muslim and US side that Bin Laden was indeed dead then we would STILL be having this conversation.

Fo shizzle, as they say. I shit you not, I had a very short birther debate, and the question brought up on that side was, "It's dodgy. What took him so long to produce the birth certificate?" Despite the fact that he had no legal obligation to and even asking for it is a big slap in the balls (not to mention, a waste of fucking resources [taxes, time, energy, media coverage, etc.] ), I can guarantee you it wasn't b/c pieces of paper take months to fake. They take hours, at most.

[ebarrett]

Anyone else feeling the conspiracy theory thread meh?