Dynamite Deka remake

[shinsage]

That being said, I can't work out why Sega fans hold this particular game in such high esteem.

Because the president's daughter has been kidnapped, and Bruce Willis is going to save her and beat up some firemen along the way.


Not sure why you thought it'd be cheaper making the game in 3D. Dumb statement.
Maybe it was made in 3D because it was 1996?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Because the president's daughter has been kidnapped, and Bruce Willis is going to save her and beat up some firemen along the way.

I played a game starring Bruce Willis and it was called Apocalypse. This here chap is not him.

Not sure why you thought it'd be cheaper making the game in 3D.

You mean "making the graphics polygonal"? (The gameplay is hardly 3D.) Possibly because it looks poor even by the standards of early polygonal games (stuff by Sega usually had better animations). Difficult to believe this game could have been as expensive to develop as Night Slashers or Thunder Zone (to name some of best looking games powered by similar engines, with 8-directional movement etc., only with raster graphics). Granted, I haven't seen the whole content, but what I've seen thus far doesn't have the visual appeal of Gunblade NY or Virtual-On either. Back in the day it looked sub-standard among other cabs, be it 2D or 3D.

[louisg]

Yep, it's an ST-V game.. it's a Saturn in a cab, where at the other end of the arcade you'd have stuff like Daytona. It's ugly, but I don't see how it's "missing the point of 3d"; it sure as hell plays a lot better than the later 3d beat 'em ups where you can face any direction (which essentially play like top view beat 'em ups). This is because it opens up more moves without using more buttons (crouching moves for example), and it also has that moving-into-your-plane gameplay of 2d brawl games.

Then, there is lot of complex animation that I'm not sure would have been very easy or convincing to pull off in 2d (some of the tackles for instance, and the huge variety of combos and moves). That'd be about as good as Virtua Fighter 2 on Genesis in 2d.

[Obiwanshinobi]

It's ugly, but I don't see how it's "missing the point of 3d"; it sure as hell plays a lot better than the later 3d beat 'em ups where you can face any direction (which essentially play like top view beat 'em ups).

As far as I can tell, the gameplay would be perfectly portable to 2D. You can only face left or right hand side and must be on one horizontal line with an opponent to engage in combat.
So they tossed away the potential of raster graphics (eye candy) and traded it for ugliness, but didn't utilise the potential of vector graphics of the time (sweet animation - something Sega was good at back then).
While I'm not a connoisseur of the genre, I'd say God Hand is more transparent and fair. Sure, it wouldn't work with a controller typical of most coin-op games, but Sega wasn't afraid of designing coin-op games with unique controllers in mind. Yeah, I know it's a whole decade's worth of difference. My point is, Dynamite Deka doesn't make a particulary great use of the hardware it was developed for.

[louisg]

It's ugly, but I don't see how it's "missing the point of 3d"; it sure as hell plays a lot better than the later 3d beat 'em ups where you can face any direction (which essentially play like top view beat 'em ups).

As far as I can tell, the gameplay would be perfectly portable to 2D. You can only face left or right hand side and must be on one horizontal line with an opponent to engage in combat.
So they tossed away the potential of raster graphics (eye candy) and traded it for ugliness, but didn't utilise the potential of vector graphics of the time (sweet animation - something Sega was good at back then).
While I'm not a connoisseur of the genre, I'd say God Hand is more transparent and fair. Sure, it wouldn't work with a controller typical of most coin-op games, but Sega wasn't afraid of designing coin-op games with unique controllers in mind. Yeah, I know it's a whole decade's worth of difference. My point is, Dynamite Deka doesn't make a particulary great use of the hardware it was developed for.

I don't think it'd work that great in 2d unless you had about a half gig sized ROM and a huge stable of artists! There really is a lot in the way of moves, animation, and it does make use of the flexibility you get in 3d. For example, you wouldn't really want to do Virtua Fighter as a 2d game (they tried.. twice). The face-left-or-right-only perspective in DHA did wonders for the gameplay when compared to what are essentially top-view games like its follow-up Dynamite Cop or Zombie Revenge. As I said before, it allows for a lot more moves (seriously, check out the move list. And most of those come in handy).

Along those lines, I was pretty bored by God Hand and Madworld, No More Heroes and all those other 2-miles-per-hour "hit x until you develop carpal tunnel" games.. I much prefer DHA's speed and strategy.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Along those lines, I was pretty bored by God Hand and Madworld, No More Heroes and all those other 2-miles-per-hour "hit x until you develop carpal tunnel" games.. I much prefer DHA's speed and strategy.

You think it's fair to put God Hand and MadWorld in one bag? I don't even wanna start the whole frames-per-second thing again, but for the record, I think Onimusha nailed the very essence of 2D brawl in semi-3D environment, and God Hand took it to the next level in a fully three-dimensional environment with more complexity.

[louisg]

Along those lines, I was pretty bored by God Hand and Madworld, No More Heroes and all those other 2-miles-per-hour "hit x until you develop carpal tunnel" games.. I much prefer DHA's speed and strategy.

You think it's fair to put God Hand and MadWorld in one bag? I don't even wanna start the whole frames-per-second thing again, but for the record, I tink Onimusha nailed the very essence of 2D brawl in semi-3D environment, and God Hand took it to the next level in a fully three-dimensional environment with more complexity.

Yeah, it seems pretty fair to me.. they're both slow poke brawler games that got rave reviews for a reason I can't fathom Aren't Onimusha and Devil May Cry (and Rygar, etc) more of walkabout adventures? I'd put DHA more with games like Final Fight, Double Dragon, Golden Axe, AVP and Streets of Rage, and put those others in the made-for-console snoozefest category ;D

OK, I'll admit I'm trolling.. but only a little! You might prefer console-style, which is perfectly valid. But you can't compare Onimusha and Die Hard Arcade any more than you can compare Super Metroid and Contra 3 (yeah, I know I did above ).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Well, there's always Crimson Tears. If that's not fast enough for your liknig, I'm afraid I can't help (unless you wanna dive into the depths of Shinobi).
Of course in Crimson Tears you can (must) grind and it doesn't even pretend to ba a coin-op game, but the pacing and the controls make for a fine polygonal brawler if you ask me.

[BIL]

I have a beef with the gameplay, which seems to be ripped straight out of beat 'em ups with 8-directional movement where you can face only left or right hand side of the screen.

That would be because Deka is a traditional beat 'em up, much to its credit. The 3D lends it a VF-style move library, physics and sense of impact. The feel of a perfectly-selected and timed attack crashing into a running enemy's face in Deka is something not found in run-of-the-mill 2D beaters, and certainly not in its lame sequel which has full 3D movement, simplified movesets and is bland and forgettable by comparison.

And if Deka's combat seems clunky you're playing it badly. It's an easy one-credit by coin-op beat 'em up standards, mostly because the movelist is so dominating once you sort the bread-and-butter essentials from the flashier combo material meant for competent players.

Why the fuck are you name-dropping Shinobi repeatedly in a topic about a straight beat 'em up, by the way?

Dynamite Deka seems to be made by people who missed the point of making games in 3D to begin with.

It's a traditional 2D genre game that happened to make use of polygons. I hear crazy rumours there are shooters and fighting games that do similar even to this day.

[Obiwanshinobi]

And if Deka's combat seems clunky you're playing it badly. It's an easy one-credit by coin-op beat 'em up standards, mostly because the movelist is so dominating once you sort the bread-and-butter essentials from the flashier combo material meant for competent players.

It's not my fault a game looking 3D turned out to be designed like Final Fight.

Why the fuck are you name-dropping Shinobi repeatedly in a topic about a straight beat 'em up, by the way?

Fast killing, fast pacing, melikes. Diablo & stuff, don't you know? I've yet to play a 3D brawler of my dreams. Shinobi comes close in the combat area.

It's a traditional 2D genre game that happened to make use of polygons. I hear crazy rumours there are shooters and fighting games that do similar even to this day.

Even nowadays, they hardly ever happen to look good, don't you think? Einhänder, Contra: Shattered Soldier, Under Defeat, Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, Zero Gunner 2, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, last gen Naruto games, Raiden III&IV - I agree those are nice looking. That said, even Gradius V, albeit not ugly, could use more variety to say the least.

[BIL]

It's not my fault a game looking 3D turned out to be designed like Final Fight.

It doesn't play like Final Fight, it plays like Virtua Fighter in a traditional beat 'em up format. If you're trying to play it like Final Fight, I can understand why you're unhappy. Less spamming PPP, more properly timed and economical attacks.

If you're saying you bought the PS2 Deka disc expecting a full update of the game, mechanics and all... well, that would suck, but it's not the game's fault.

Fast killing, fast pacing, melikes. Diablo & stuff, don't you know? I've yet to play a 3D brawler of my dreams. Shinobi comes close in the combat area.

Yeah, I know all too well Shinobi is a fast game with lots of killing, but it's not a traditional beat 'em up. If it were it would suck compared to Deka, thanks to its paper-thin combat and interminable levels. Good job it's a modern full-3D action game with pesky enemies meant to be evade-and-shredded by the dozen while the player negotiates complex platform environments at high speed!

Even nowadays, they hardly ever happen to look good, don't you think?.

I didn't assume you were referring to looks with "the point of 3D." It's a point I'm glad Sega missed, if so; Deka's own (relatively) pretty sequel is much shallower than the shabby-looking but far harder-hitting original.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Better animations wouldn't hurt. I'm not into Virtua Fighters, but those are at least pleasing to look at.

[BIL]

If you want to talk about how it looks rather than how it plays, Deka's a pretty goofy-looking game - no argument there. (I do find some of the more ridiculous animations endearing, in an HOTD's voice acting way)

Obviously having both solid mechanics and presentation is the ideal. Regardless, it may not be quite as smooth or have as good character models as VF2, but attacks hit just as hard and control+collision detection is just as tight. I'll take its R-Type Delta over the sequel's R-Type Final any day.

[louisg]

Well put! Anyway, Obiwan, give the game a chance. I think it's deeper than you're giving it credit for. And if you still think the gameplay sucks, at least you can still play it to beat up firefighters and throw televisions at robots. If nothing else, it's got *that* value

[BIL]

I like to throw pepper in baddies' faces ("achoo!") and follow up with a well-aimed kick in the balls ("goarrrh!"). This would probably be my BNB combo in a real-life beat 'em up situation.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I don't exactly think the gameplay sucks (if anything, its combat engine deserves more praise than Yakuza's). Rather, I don't get what's supposed to be exceptionally good about it. It's in no meaningful way more 3D than older beat 'em ups of its ilk (that's what I meant by "missing the point"). Instead, enter the quick time events and polygonal graphics making all things I dislike about the (sub)genre even more jarring.
Action games where trivial actions like picking up a hammer can be trickier than they would be in real life are not my favourite part of the arcade gaming's glorious past. Placing yourself on one invisible plane with things to interact with them is one of those proto-3D gimmicks that have not aged well if you ask me. Treasure (or whoever introduced switching between planes with a button) did right thing and I don't get why Guardian Heroes Advance ditched it. Capcom's solution (lock on button) also suits me better.
As I understand it, the "8-directional movement, but only 2-directional interaction" thing used to be standard in beat 'em ups with raster graphics because interaction on diagonal and vertical planes would require at least two more sets of animation in memory and all the more artwork for it - not a problem with vector graphics.

[BIL]

I don't exactly think the gameplay sucks (if anything, its combat engine deserves more praise than Yakuza's). Rather, I don't get what's supposed to be exceptionally good about it. It's in no meaningful way more 3D than older beat 'em ups of its ilk (that's what I meant by "missing the point").

It's a classic 2D beat 'em up with a bigger library of useful moves, a more versatile combat engine, and a much more visceral sense of speed and impact than the norm, all of which were facilitated by polygonal graphics. Your complaint "it's not meaningfully more 3D" is what's missing the point. It's meaningfully more *2D* than watered-down games like Dynamite Deka 2 and Zombie Revenge.

Guardian Heroes is a good game, but it doesn't play like Kunio/D.Dragon/FF so much as a sidescrolling action game with three planes. Much the same goes for God Hand and full 3D. How much of oldschool belt-scroll design was intention vs necessity, I don't know or really care - its absence in Deka 2 and ZR wasn't a plus. Those games lack the intensity of both oldschool brawlers and modern full-3D ones.

Everything else you wrote is armchair player material, sorry. Picking up weapons? Get used to the controls and darting over to grab one won't be a problem (it's a risky move by design, with enemies on their feet - also learn which weapons are actually worth picking up). Lining up with enemies? Space yourself properly and you won't have difficulty connecting roundhouses with jawbones - there's a fair amount of leeway. The QTEs are all within obvious cutscenes, and they're easily predictable (clock someone = P or K, otherwise = J). It's not RE4 where "P+J" will suddenly flash during a fight, or randomly selected multi-button commands will occur repeatedly in the same cutscene.

[Obiwanshinobi]

It's a classic 2D beat 'em up with a bigger library of useful moves, a more versatile combat engine, and a much more visceral sense of speed and impact than the norm, all of which were facilitated by polygonal graphics.

If you can praise it for deriving certain solutions from Virtua Fighter, I can as well criticise it for not sorting out the issues I have with the genre as the technology was finally up to the task. You don't hear me picking on Streets of Rage along those lines in the Remake thread as that game is one generation older and was designed with different technical limitations in mind.

Your complaint "it's not meaningfully more 3D" is what's missing the point. It's meaningfully more *2D* than watered-down games like Dynamite Deka 2 and Zombie Revenge.

I was referring to such statements:

Since this is basically DD with a fresh face of paint, it goes without saying that this could be the best 3D b'eu ever.

This may very well be the last and best 2D beat 'em up ever, but 3D? Where?

Guardian Heroes is a good game, but it doesn't play like Kunio/D.Dragon/FF so much as a sidescrolling action game with three planes. Much the same goes for God Hand and full 3D. How much of oldschool belt-scroll design was intention vs necessity, I don't know or really care - its absence in Deka 2 and ZR wasn't a plus. Those games lack the intensity of both oldschool brawlers and modern full-3D ones.

I can think of at least one way to keep the combat essentionally the same as in DD and get rid of the chessboard movement, even without employing the fourth button. Haven't played DD2 and ZR, but neither looks like I believe the job should be done.

Everything else you wrote is armchair player material, sorry.

Not really. Would be if - rather than playing something I like better - I kept explaining why this game is not worth playing, which is not what I'm doing. Actually I played Dynamite Deka today. On Easy with continues, but something about those Golden Axe references stops me from feeling bad about it (and I haven't even tried on Tyris Flare's costume yet). It's a fun game alright, even if I'm playing it wrong.

Picking up weapons? Get used to the controls and darting over to grab one won't be a problem (it's a risky move by design, with enemies on their feet - also learn which weapons are actually worth picking up). Lining up with enemies? Space yourself properly and you won't have difficulty connecting roundhouses with jawbones - there's a fair amount of leeway.

Everything's hunky-dory on paper and as long as the blob shadow or the square thing turning green tells me I'm standing in the right place to pick stuff up, I can't even complain it's "cheap" or "unfair". The thing is, I don't like it. It's never been the fun part of those games for me. Thus every classic 2D beat 'em up is a game of two halves in my book, one half spoiling another.
There's more such old mechanics I'd like to see reworked in remakes. For instance, I don't know how the Sega Ages Alien Syndrome remake fares, but I like the premise of brand-new control scheme. To find no improvement (or "improvement", depending on your standpoint) of the sort in Dynamite Deka was a bit of a disappointment.

The QTEs are all within obvious cutscenes, and they're easily predictable (clock someone = P or K, otherwise = J). It's not RE4 where "P+J" will suddenly flash during a fight, or randomly selected multi-button commands will occur repeatedly in the same cutscene.

I don't mind QTEs in either (in RE4 on Professional I sometimes do, but that's another story). Just wanted to get that out of the way before somebody claims these to be the proof of Dynamite Deka's historical significance.

[louisg]

(sigh) the Playstation generation.. not everything that's 3d has to be a super-immersive semi-simulation of real life, man.

[BIL]

If you can praise it for deriving certain solutions from Virtua Fighter, I can as well criticise it for not sorting out the issues I have with the genre as the technology was finally up to the task.

So basically, you don't like beltscrollers. Deka was never going to break genre conventions to please non-fans, not even when the technology allowed it. It's too hardcore a game for that. Or too stubbornly old-fashioned, take your pick. "Solutions?" No, those were enhancements.

Deal with it or move on. Or wait until RSG 360 is out and complain you still can't use the z-axis to evade bullets.

I was referring to such statements:

...

This may very well be the last and best 2D beat 'em up ever, but 3D? Where?

We're on revision 3 of "missing the point" at this stage. Why didn't you just specify you had a problem with Deka being classified as "3D" to begin with? Would've avoided all this dead air.

Not really. Would be if - rather than playing something I like better - I kept explaining why this game is not worth playing, which is not what I'm doing. Actually I played Dynamite Deka today. On Easy with continues

"Playing a game badly, then complaining about it on message boards" is pretty in line with armchair gaming in my book. Deka is a fairly easy game once you figure out enemy behaviour and your own movelist (like you do in most action games), which from the sounds of things you're not doing. I'd just play something I like better. That's what I did when I tried the Phantasy Star games before declining to buy the PS2 collection.

The thing is, I don't like it. It's never been the fun part of those games for me. Thus every classic 2D beat 'em up is a game of two halves in my book, one half spoiling another.

Maybe you should just accept you don't like these games as they are, instead of bumping threads about popular ones to pontificate over their worthiness.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Why didn't you just specify you had a problem with Deka being classified as "3D" to begin with?

That's very much what I did with my initial post. Coupled with grand statements posted above ("Sega has made the only worthwhile 3D beat 'em ups", apparently), should be self-explanatory enough.

"Playing a game badly, then complaining about it on message boards" is pretty in line with armchair gaming in my book.

Haven't you EVER continued in a game and then had a few complaints about it? Cutting corners (continuing, using stage select modes or savestates) is order of the day on THESE boards. I'm not starting an account on a 2D beat 'em ups dedicated forum only to say "your beloved genre sucks dick as is and should move on". By internet standards my statements are pretty mild. Never called this game "bad" or worse for example.

Maybe you should just accept you don't like these games as they are, instead of bumping threads about popular ones to pontificate over their worthiness.

Nah. I'm done with Halo as it never looked that hot for my money and when I played it, it wasn't massively entertaining indeed. With beat 'em ups the story's different as I always thought Capcom's Punisher looked just fine, The King of Dragons happened to be the very first 1cc I witnessed in the arcade (was very influenced by Tolkien's Hobbit back in the day), and overall I had a thing for the genre, just not to the point of giving my coins to it as run & guns and platformers were still around. Now, when it's all more affordable, I'm trying to fill the gaps.

(sigh) the Playstation generation.. not everything that's 3d has to be a super-immersive semi-simulation of real life, man.

Simulation? No. Immersion? Yes. Every game should be immersive, even the likes of Tempest (better than drugs, 'cause it's cheaper).
For whatever reason I don't have a beef with tank controls in any game, be it the original GTA or God Hand, even though they don't make much sense in the real life context.
The hing about Dynamite Deka is, playing as an action flick hero who can only face two directions in fully tree-dimensional environment feels as "good" to me as playing as a supposedly bad-ass sworn vampire killer who can't jump on friggin' STAIRS in early Castlevanias. That sort of annoyance. Not game-breaking, but unpleasant all the same.

[BIL]

You bumped the topic with a post bitching about the game having traditional eight-way controls and questioning the tastes of people who like it, with some smarmy implication that these people couldn't possibly have appreciated Shinobi and F-Zero GX. Very balanced introduction!

Since you asked, I have the good sense to figure out whether a popular game I've just picked up is in reality "clunky" and difficult to control, or whether I'm just a complete novice who hasn't grasped the basics, let alone its finer points, before spouting off about it.

The way you're bitching on and on about the terrible imposition of two-dimensional gameplay, it's obvious you either don't know how to play or aren't interested in learning. It's not a game about mincing around the room doing cartwheels, it's about getting face-to-face with enemies and beating their asses before they do the same to you. You know, a "beat 'em up." It's pretty intense and very "immersive" when you're trying to survive past the second level.

[louisg]

And don't forget how much TimeSplitters sucks because you can't jump!