Why Americans don't 1CC

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Mischief Maker
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Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Mischief Maker »

This was originally posted to the Caltrops Forums.

(This is another portion of my unfinished review of Crimzon Clover. Since it was the first true Bullet Hell shmup I was going to be reviewing for newbies, I thought I'd add a quick introduction on how to play Bullet Hell and why you'd want to try. Alas, "quick" wasn't what it turned into turned out to be and the article is stuck in draft limbo at the moment, perhaps never to be completed, but here is an observation I still wanted to share)
I spend more time looking at my own poop than I do reading [your shmup reviews], and I read -everything- on Caltrops. So, if you're going to go down this road [reviewing shmups], I think you should do some outreach by finding shmups with a broad or eclectic appeal, because the fundamental shmup model is just so repugnant to so many people.

The only shmup I ever liked was Raptor. Are there other quasi-persistent shmups? Are there stat-driven role-playing shmups with inventories and choices and sidequests and... XP? I'm never going to read shmup enthusiast press, but I will at least skim your shmup posts, so if someone has elaborated on the Raptor model I'd feel obliged if you let me know. Honestly though, I can't imagine why anyone would like the 'core' shmups unless they were doing speed. Though on speed, -anything- is fun and engaging and a radiant bridge to a truer knowledge of yourself and the world.
I completely understand where Simon P. Sampson was coming from here. I used to have the exact same attitude before I rediscovered shmups and learned what a difference playing for score and limiting yourself to one credit makes. I ate slept and drank RPGs at one time. Bullet Hell seemed to me the ultimate in alien masochistic video gaming weirdness from Japan, even weirder than the game where you shove a giant finger into a mannequin’s ass.

But wait a minute, dial the clock back a decade before the NES and Arcade gaming was huge in the US. Robotron was a huge hit and born right here in the old US of A. American kids in the Arcade were turning programming errors in Sinistar to their advantage. So why is it today, a generation later, Arcades have all but died out here in the States and the idea of Superplaying a game is regarded as something only “Japanese” gamers do? Why did our taste in games turn from white knuckled tests of our skill to slow-paced pellet-dispensing RPGs? Clearly there is still the desire for challenging games, witness the enthusiasm greeting titles like Serious Sam and Geometry Wars, the proverbial slushee machines in the middle of the post-half-life desert. What turned us into such pussies?

Then a couple days ago I learned a crucial detail from an “Until we Win” video and it all made perfect sense why the Nintendo Generations of Americans don’t 1CC. You see, being a little kid in the late 80s, early 90s, one could expect to get a new Nintendo game to own, once, MAYBE twice a year. Whatever game you ask mom and dad to get you you’re going to be playing that thing backwards and forwards day-in-and day-out until you’ve mastered it inside and out in your desperate attempt to stay indoors and avoid the yellow face and the reek of fresh air.

But there was something American kids could do with their Nintendos that Japanese kids couldn’t. An escape hatch from the 1-2 game rule. For a paltry $3, you could RENT a game, and it was yours for 3 days. Make no mistake, those 3 days were serious business. We had to squeeze as much fun out of the game as possible in that short period of time before returning it to the store and success was a matter of seeing every stage until the end credits assured us that indeed a winner was you.

So, if American kids are going to chew your game up and spit it out in the 3 day rental period, how do you make your game enticing enough for the kids to come back and turn it into their 1-2 games to buy per year? The major strategy at the time was to jack the difficulty way up on the American titles. (Bayou Billy, anyone?) Ha ha! Now the game is impossible for you to beat in 3 days, it will take you months to master the gameplay, and you have no choice but to buy it if you ever want to see the end credits.

Not so fast, developers. We were going to finish our rental experience with the end credits by hook or by crook. If your game was too difficult to master in a weekend, we took the sinister route- we cheated. The Nintendo generation doesn’t have the Konami cheat code memorized for nothing, guys. Even when the developers excised all the cheat codes from the final product, we had 3rd party devices like the game genie to screw with the game’s guts and bend its rules to our will. And if the game was an arcade port with unlimited continues. Psh! Bomb and credit spam and you’re done in a half hour. Going to the arcade, bring the same philosophy there. I want to see the end of Teeneage Mutant Ninja Turtles, I’ll just bring a roll of quarters. Continue, continue, continue…

But wasn’t cheating a GAME missing the point? Why would we even think of cheating as an option to pursue? Well, for most of the Nintendo generation, their first and most influential game was Super Mario Bros. So you’re a little kid, you barely have any hand-eye coordination, your friends are over, and you want to show off playing your only game. What do you do? You show them you know where the secret warp zones are located. “I’m so good at this game, I can reach the final stage without even PLAYING it.”

But renting games was illegal in Japan. If you were a kid who only owned 2 games, THOSE WERE YOUR ONLY 2 GAMES FOR A YEAR. Cheating your way to the end credits would get old fast, if you wanted your money’s worth you would have to master the game for real; then up your game by playing with arbitrary limitations, or if the game had a good scoring system, maximizing that score.

So with American kids renting new games every weekend and cheating our way to the finish, what games DID we choose for the honor of being our 1-2 purchased titles? Certainly not arcade ports, those games could be finished off in a half hour! Enter the RPG. The distant bastard offspring of the PnP Dungeons and Dragons, RPGs were all about killing hours and hours as you savored the mellow morphine drip of escalating stats. I remember feeling so slick when I subscribed to Nintendo Power magazine and got a free copy of Dragon Warrior 1. Who cared that the game sucked and was boring, it was hours and hours of stat drip and my _3rd_ game of the year.

Spend your formative years reinforcing the notion that RPG=good and suddenly you want RPG crap in all your games, even genres where the addition of stats and experience points and random chance to hit actively damage the gameplay experience (I’m looking at YOU, System Shock 2!) So sure, RPG stats in a reflex-based shmup. Never mind if the action is exciting and challenging, just bring on the XP drip and I’m golden.

It's interesting to ponder if the younger generations of Japanese gamers, the ones who grew up with the hundreds of titles available through Emulation, or for rental price equivalents off Console online markets, are going to end up abandoning shmups and 1CC arcade runs the way Americans with their rentals have. After all, while Japan is home to bullet-hell shmups, it's also home to the JRPG, the lowest form of videogame.
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Demetori
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Demetori »

the lowest form of videogame.
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Blackbird
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Blackbird »

That's an interesting theory. While that is plausible, it might be something even simpler - cultural mores in Japan are more accepting of games than in the US. Until very recently (and to a lesser extent, even now), being a "gamer" had very negative social connotations. It was totally uncool to master a game, because that meant you were some sweaty nerd that must have spent all his time playing videogames. Therefore, most US players now prefer to play socially, rather than antisocially. If you are showing off to your friends, you're cool, and if you're mastering some game alone in your basement, you're lame. I think that there is also a prevailing attitude in the States that, if you can achieve the same success through a shortcut or hard work, that you should always take the shortcut. On the other hand, the Japanese seem to value hard work and excellence more, so there is more respect for people that master things... even videogames.

As for my opinion, the greatest appeal of the shooting game is thrill. Adrenaline. RPGs are fun to relax with, but they are typically not challenging. The pacing is slow, and there is little risk of failure. On the other hand, shooting games really get my heart pumping, because the game -really is- trying to destroy me. That game developer wants me to lose and get the hell off his arcade machine, because that's how the arcades make money. If I win, it's because I clawed victory from the hands of a game that really wants to kill me. A real "life or death" battle with actual stakes. It's exciting, isn't it? That doesn't mean that RPGs are poor in comparison - I play different genres of games to feel different things.
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Korszca
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Korszca »

Geez, I must have been the only Nintendo-generation kid who didn't have access to a Game Genie or a gaming rental store :roll:
And maybe for that reason, I see to it that I 1CC the games I buy.
I'm much older now but I still only buy one or two games a year and go about making sure I get my money's worth, which almost certainly includes 1CCing them.
+1 for the shooting games being about adrenaline comment. It's why I loved shooting games then and why I still love them today.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by drunkninja24 »

Mischief Maker wrote:even genres where the addition of stats and experience points and random chance to hit actively damage the gameplay experience (I’m looking at YOU, System Shock 2!)
But....System Shock 2 was great :?

Overall, I see what you're saying though. People just want to sit down and either have something that they can plow through in a few evenings, trade in, and move on with, or something they can keep coming back to with friends. There just isn't a huge interest in really digging into arcade-style games anymore.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by TodayIsForgotten »

Is this suppose to be opinion or fact?

In our house we never had game genie. We did have Nintendo Power, though. I think i was roughly 3 going on 4 when we got Nintendo in the xmas of 84'. Mario came with the nes (of course). I remember playing that game non-stop and finally beating it with no warps or cheats, regardless of my brother whispering in my ear how i'd mess up and die. Sure, i cried when I died shortly after he said that, but vengeance was mine.

We had well over 200 NES games until the super nintendo came out. The one thing i remember was my parents buying a game once or twice a month and myself usually beating them rather quickly, while feeling horrible that they spent 50 bucks for basically nothing.

I do remember renting games, but that was for the 16-bit era and only to see if it were enough for me to buy the game.

To this day i try to 1cc any game that is action based. I think its all here-say that American's don't 1cc and as much of a stereotype that all Japanese players are amazing at shoot em ups. Percentage wise both parties are equally low when it comes to mastering or 1cc'ing games or being good at a game.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Some-Mist »

I know it's only original mode, but I'm not even that great at danmaku shmups
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americans can 1CC just as people from other regions can, it just depends on the amount of time they're willing to put into the game. I think there are some players from japan that are more dedicated to the genre (which leads to 1CCing), but there are americans with huge 1CC lists too.
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Special World
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Special World »

I think Crimzon Clover provides good incentive to keep playing with its shop system, in a way that can be likened to the type of player-baiting that goes on in RPGs. However, I don't really feel that it's a good first shooter review for newbies. Crimzon Clover is tough, complex, and lacks graphical flair. I really doubt it's gonna make anyone a convert that doesn't already love the genre.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Paradigm »

Special World wrote: Crimzon Clover is tough, complex, and lacks graphical flair.
what?
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Special World »

Paradigm wrote:
Special World wrote: Crimzon Clover is tough, complex, and lacks graphical flair.
what?
The game's an eyesore, imo. A lot of the enemies are lacking any sort of style, and the sprites remind me of Mars Matrix's weird pre-rendered look. I guess it's a bit much to say it lacks flair, but it's just really odd looking.

ED: Yeah, you guys are right. Playing again, it has flair out the ass. I still think it looks kind of strange and ugly, though.
Last edited by Special World on Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Barrakketh »

Paradigm wrote:
Special World wrote: Crimzon Clover is tough, complex, and lacks graphical flair.
what?
I think he can't see anything over all of the explosions and stars :)
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Sumez »

Great post for everything but the completely uncalled for lash out at jrpgs and System Shock 2.
I'd like to see this "Simon P" guy defending his views in this thread on this forum. It's almost comical how Raptor is the example he brings up as the one good and interesting shoot'em up out of everything else the genre has to offer.
Blackbird wrote:If you are showing off to your friends, you're cool, and if you're mastering some game alone in your basement, you're lame.
This would also prove why the challenging reflex-based action games that ARE popular in the west, are competitive games like fighters, deathmatch FPS games, and racing + sports games.
TodayIsForgotten wrote:We had well over 200 NES games until the super nintendo came out.
200? I don't even have that many NES games NOW.
I don't think you really count as the average American gamer in the setting proposed by OP, sorry. :) Of course, most of the people who end up on this forum don't, but I think buying 200 NES games back then is pretty extreme, especially considering the price of new console games were even steeper back then than they are now. Your family must have had a hell of a thriving economy. :)
Having 200 games in your household is pretty close to the situation of being able to renting any game you want. I remember having about 5 NES games before moving on to SNES, and my dad actually would not allow me to get another game before I finished the ones I had (a statement I still respect him for, it's pretty cool now that you think of it). Had to convince him that it was pretty unrealistic for me to ever beat Lemmings. :P
Last edited by Sumez on Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Sumez »

And off-topic - Some-Mist: You use "SMZ" as your high score initials? Damn. -_-
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by ptoing »

Special World wrote:
Paradigm wrote:
Special World wrote: Crimzon Clover is tough, complex, and lacks graphical flair.
what?
The game's an eyesore, imo. A lot of the enemies are lacking any sort of style, and the sprites remind me of Mars Matrix's weird pre-rendered look. I guess it's a bit much to say it lacks flair, but it's just really odd looking.

ED: Yeah, you guys are right. Playing again, it has flair out the ass. I still think it looks kind of strange and ugly, though.
I somewhat agree with this. The fact that almost none of the sprites are not anti-aliased makes it look very noisy. Same goes for a lot of the backgrounds. Too much noise. And the HUD thingy around the play area looks atrocious.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by burgerkingdiamond »

I think it's just part of the general lazyness of video games nowadays. It takes an attention span of more than 5 minutes to really learn a shmup. It is the only genre left that really requires YOU the player to do anything. It's the only genre left in which you can actually lose, and it means something to beat the game. You can't say you BEAT Halo for example, you just finished it. The developers designed that game so that anybody who picks up the controller will finish it.

I generalized of course. There are some games like Ninja Gaiden Sigma and Demon Souls that will take skill to play. But they're a minority.

And I'm not a shmups Nazi. I must admit that I have a huge soft spot for Fallout 3. Haven't had time to play New Vegas.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Wonderbanana »

burgerkingdiamond wrote:You can't say you BEAT Halo for example, you just finished it. The developers designed that game so that anybody who picks up the controller will finish it.
Not a great example really. Legendary difficulty is pretty challenging imo and not everyone can finish that.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Udderdude »

Dunno where you guys have been, games have turned into disposable "Play it once and toss it away" popcorn entertainment years ago.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by burgerkingdiamond »

Wonderbanana wrote:
burgerkingdiamond wrote:You can't say you BEAT Halo for example, you just finished it. The developers designed that game so that anybody who picks up the controller will finish it.
Not a great example really. Legendary difficulty is pretty challenging imo and not everyone can finish that.
Difficulty levels aside..
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Wonderbanana »

Udderdude wrote:Dunno where you guys have been, games have turned into disposable "Play it once and toss it away" popcorn entertainment years ago.
Games in general nearly always been that way tbh, if anything in the past they were more so with regards to retail releases at least.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by burgerkingdiamond »

Udderdude wrote:Dunno where you guys have been, games have turned into disposable "Play it once and toss it away" popcorn entertainment years ago.
I know. This thread is really no different than the "Why Modern Gaming Sucks" thread...
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Wonderbanana »

burgerkingdiamond wrote:
Wonderbanana wrote:
burgerkingdiamond wrote:You can't say you BEAT Halo for example, you just finished it. The developers designed that game so that anybody who picks up the controller will finish it.
Not a great example really. Legendary difficulty is pretty challenging imo and not everyone can finish that.
Difficulty levels aside..
But that just renders your point void surely? Wouldn't be any different to playing a shmup on easy or credit feeding it.

Many people miss the point with Halo much in the same way they do with shmups. They blast through on normal and are done with it. But Bungie themselves say they designed the game to be played on at least Heroic and there's good reason for that. The whole experience changes.

Play on Legendary and each minor skirmish becomes an all out war, challenging and satisfying against intelligent tough enemies; each checkpoint a very welcome milestone. Completing it solo is a very satisfying moment I assure you.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Ganelon »

I think the argument has merit but needs to be more fully fleshed out. How does it explain that RPGs were thoroughly unpopular amongst mainstream US gaming until the late 90s? I'd agree that the 2000s habit of providing RPG stat advancement and exploration elements were to prolong games but that rather than trying to be like RPGs, it was just the easiest way (along with lengthy cut scenes and trophies) to increase game time.

And by lumping arcade games together, how does it explain that home conversions of Street Fighter II and Mortal Kombat, amongst other fighters, sold sensationally well? There's a direct competitive aspect to fighters and other games like NBA Jam and DDR that pushed out the old passive single-player high score concept. Shooters, as the epitome of this latter ideology along with beat-em-ups, was left hanging. The US also had a deal with lightgun games (and FPS in general) but since they don't seem to be nearly as popular in Japan, I think the incredible western fascination with shooting people in games is more of a cultural thing.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by TodayIsForgotten »

Wonderbanana wrote:
Udderdude wrote:Dunno where you guys have been, games have turned into disposable "Play it once and toss it away" popcorn entertainment years ago.
Games in general nearly always been that way tbh, if anything in the past they were more so with regards to retail releases at least.
I totally agree. Nothing has changed from the late 70s-90s. I don't remember seeing 50 people lined up next to robotron or galaga or pacman. Every game outside of an FPS or MMO has a handful of people who are dedicated to the game. Can you name 1000 people who nearly hold the record in Dodonpachi? Ketsui? Robotron? Pacman? Take other harder difficulty curve games and try to name 1000 people as well.

I can recall countless games that i 1cc'd or just beat and never played again and the same holds true today. The one thing that has changed is that games have shifted from highscore to a more casual and achievement-oriented approach.

Its a fact of life that harder things most people are going to try and find another method to by-pass. Call it laziness or call it being comfortable. Games in general have not changed. If someone is not going for a highscore, they are exploring endless worlds for treasure...blah blah blah.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by Wonderbanana »

TodayIsForgotten wrote:The one thing that has changed is that games have shifted from highscore to a more casual and achievement-oriented approach.
That's a good point.

Though even that change from high score to (what I would call) completion changed many moons ago really.

Also in the mid 80's, many games were almost literally throw away. I remember going down to the local shops and picking up games for £1.99 and often having hardly any playtime from them at all.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by drauch »

drunkninja24 wrote:
Mischief Maker wrote:even genres where the addition of stats and experience points and random chance to hit actively damage the gameplay experience (I’m looking at YOU, System Shock 2!)
But....System Shock 2 was great :?.
System Shock 2 is not great, it is amazing. Haters can take my psi emitter and stick it.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by BulletMagnet »

burgerkingdiamond wrote:It is the only genre left that really requires YOU the player to do anything.
This is the important bit, in my opinion. Gamers these days expect to look at the back of the box and read about hours of cutscenes, dozens of cast members, thousands of lines of dialogue, virtual worlds measured in square miles - in essence, a veritable laundry list of "sheer stuff that's in this thing", a tour guide of sorts. Once you've seen one you're shifted right on to the next, and so on until you've gotten to them all or decide to quit and play something else. Shmups, in comparison, give you a single 45-minute run split across a half-dozen stages, which all throw the exact same baddies at you the exact same way every time - maybe a "remixed" mode or two of these same elements if you're lucky.

If you treat shmups as a "checklist" the way many other games encourage you to, it's guaranteed disappointment: it's the difference between passing outside a building and snapping a few pictures versus venturing inside and exploring every nook and cranny. Many modern games are huge mansions, filled with exhibits you're not allowed to touch: you admire a bunch of them for a minute apiece before reaching the gift shop. Shmups are more modest abodes: to appreciate them you actually have to live there for awhile and learn how everything inside works. Methinks that's also why they have such a devoted fanbase: most everyone is impressed by a trip to the museum, but nobody has as many feelings for that place as the humble couple of walls they can truly call their own.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

Gamers generally just want fun and will spent little or no energy to learn to play any game if they cant have fun while doing so. Thats why most mainstream games have an very low learning curve. I keep on hearing every casual / non shmup player say that the only shmup they liked was Raptor. I havnt played it but my guess is that it starts off very easy and has a shit ton of stages.

As I was saying not to long ago in another thread simlar to this is that shmup devs, if they want to have a deeper penetration into the mainstream market are going to have to do more to educate newcommers in the goals of shmups and to also help to get their skill to a good enough standard so they can enjoy these games. While easy mode is a step in the right direction, practice mode isnt. Its good enough for us guys who dont mind grinding away untill we get to a decent standard, but the average joe hates that or atleast hates it before he catches the shmup bug.

What devs should include in their games is a tutorial section just like most other genres do. Then teach them some basic fundamentals in how to play the game like tap dodging, bullet herding and how to use the whole play area to your advange. And by tutorial I dont mean a few words thats usually in Japanese outlining the controls, right at the start of the game. But full blown playable tutorials just like FPS games do or god of war. Then when they have these basics down they have the basic skills to enjoy the main game which is just a normal hard 5 stage shmup so that hardcore shmup fans can enjoy the game aswell. A win-win for everybody and much better then the genre slowly dying out due to lack of sales or changing into something we hate just to suvive.
System Shock 2 is not great, it is amazing. Haters can take my psi emitter and stick it
I agree, damn shame looking glass studios only managed SS2 and Thief before they shut
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by captpain »

If you guys like System Shock 2, you should definitely play Thief 2 as well -- another one of the best games ever, and it's on the same engine.
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

captpain wrote:If you guys like System Shock 2, you should definitely play Thief 2 as well -- another one of the best games ever, and it's on the same engine.
I have played all 3 thief games although I didnt get to play too much of the 2nd game (not the games fault but my own)
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Re: Why Americans don't 1CC

Post by captpain »

TrevHead (TVR) wrote:
captpain wrote:If you guys like System Shock 2, you should definitely play Thief 2 as well -- another one of the best games ever, and it's on the same engine.
I have played all 3 thief games although I didnt get to play too much of the 2nd game (not the games fault but my own)
The second one is the best, IMO, with the first and third both being good in their own ways. Give it another go, because some of the later levels are incredible. Did you play the one where you explore a big network of rooftops/top rooms of houses? Coolest level ever.
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