your favorite Raiden game?

[MEGAMANXPERTSico]

But... but... I love all of them. =(

But...but..Its too hard to choose =(
(but you should add Raiden Project for the PS1 to the list)

[Bloodreign]

But... but... I love all of them. =(

But...but..Its too hard to choose =(
(but you should add Raiden Project for the PS1 to the list)

That would only be adding Raiden 1 and 2 to the list again, so no need. You can vote for the first two if you like, it would be just like voting for Raiden Project.

[trancell.OL]

I'm pretty biased towards Raiden DX because that was the very first shmup I've 1cc'd back when I was a wee babby...
I thoroughly enjoyed what I played of DX though, I recall having an absolute blast with it, both alone and with other people.
Yeah, Raiden DX is getting my vote.

[MEGAMANXPERTSico]

yeah,you're kinda rite.

STILL cannot choose

[Aquas]

I was thinking about the 'slow ship speed' complaint Raiden III often recieves after giving Raiden III a credit of play today. I spent alot of time playing Raiden IV and maybe that has trained me to appreciate the style that Raiden III and IV bring. But when going back to III where the ship speed is slightly slower than IV's: it didn't really bother me. Because I realized the game is designed around that ship speed in the same way Raiden IV is designed around a slightly faster speed.

Raiden IV is a bit more demanding with movement in terms of the bosses as far as I can recall specifically. In IV, the technique for beating a lot of bosses is point blanking with the spread shot, then pulling back to a safer position. But I was able to play III very similarly to how I played IV in regards to the movement speed and dodging bullets.
You just herd, watch for gaps in enemy bullets, get closer to big enemies, recognize what enemy types are on the screen and watch for side snipers and memorize bosses. As long as you sweep the bottom of the screen, even the popcorn that hover from the top of the screen to right above you at the bottom can't pick you off.

In any case, I feel that the ship speed is just trying to tell the player you don't need to go fast. The majority of threats are avoided by nudges of movement. I dunno, I just can't seem to fathom why people don't enjoy III that much. Everything is cool about it for a Raiden game stepping into 3D. It could have been worse? The music is fitting enough, but not all fan service like IV. Maybe I just haven't spent enough time with the first Raiden games to truly know the folly of these games, and I'm growing attached to the later ones first. In the first games, from my impressions, it seems that knowing enemy placement is a larger factor than in III and IV. Is this right? Also, is it because the hitbox is smaller in III and IV that it creates a different style of play?

Just had to rant about this a bit and was curiouis to learn more about what people think of III. I haven't gotten past stage 3 in neither Raiden 1 or 2 just FYI.
IV just appealed to me the most.

[MathU]

Raiden IV has some great remixes, but I like III's soundtrack more personally. It's similar to Go Sato's Raiden Fighters music. When he does techno, he is very good at it.

[Blackbird]

I'm pretty biased towards Raiden DX because that was the very first shmup I've 1cc'd back when I was a wee babby...
I thoroughly enjoyed what I played of DX though, I recall having an absolute blast with it, both alone and with other people.
Yeah, Raiden DX is getting my vote.

Welcome to the shmup forums! I see you registered to bring in some more Raiden DX love. I approve. Nice avatar, by the way =).

On topic: Go Sato's music is awesome. I can't say if I could pick a favorite soundtrack of his... I'd be hard pressed. Viper Phase and Raiden II are darn good, though.

[Cuilan]

Jet is definitely my favorite.

[drauch]

yeah,you're kinda rite.

STILL cannot choose

And now you never will.

[Hair]

I don't consider Viper Phase 1 a Raiden game, but I voted for it because it's so damn good. The backgrounds give a great sense of speed and space.

[BPzeBanshee]

I was thinking about the 'slow ship speed' complaint Raiden III often recieves after giving Raiden III a credit of play today. I spent alot of time playing Raiden IV and maybe that has trained me to appreciate the style that Raiden III and IV bring. But when going back to III where the ship speed is slightly slower than IV's: it didn't really bother me. Because I realized the game is designed around that ship speed in the same way Raiden IV is designed around a slightly faster speed.

I was thinking about that too, but Ive realised what the culprit really is: Raiden III has no wobble scrolling.

Its also not fast like Cave ships/characters because unlike their hold-down-shoot-to-slow-down method the Raiden ship was just slow anyway. Of course there's also the somewhat increased bullet density and smaller hitbox to compensate, which is probably more due to the biggest ragequits of Raiden II being related to those factors.

Really I don't see why Raiden III is considered crap either. Its great, it looks nice and it nearly runs on a toaster too (too bad the errors it DOES give are all Japanese so English-only people cant read it).

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Well, the lack of wobble scrolling (side to side screen panning) isn't really that bad to me, because the game still doesn't feel that restricted due to the background movie constantly changing perspective.

The second and greater flaw is, as I have previously mentioned in another thread mentioning Raiden III, the smallish yellow bullets that are much harder to deal with than the much larger pink bullets in boss battles (on Normal and higher, the yellow bullets are often NOT shootable). Too easy to get sniped by the yellow bullets dodging the near manic pink bullet patterns.

The third flaw is the much weaker green weapon in III vs. the purple weapon in II, it works, but doesn't wrap around itself when locking on. So I generally don't ever deliberately take the green weapon anymore. That means I play III more like Raiden I and II, sticking with Red Vulcan most of the game, then alternating as needed between the new R radar-missiles introduced in III or else the H homing missiles.

The fourth flaw is that there is only the fire bomb (going back to Raiden I) after Raiden II had introduced the very effective cluster bomb as well. The severity of that flaw is reduced by the nearly instant deployment of the fire bomb when the bomb button is pressed.

The fifth and final flaw is that, while they "fixed" the powerup system in III, it can mess up play in I and II if one forgets after playing III for a while. More to the point--in I and II, taking a different color weapon or a different missile does NOT power up the weapon or missile. But in III, it does appear power up the weapon, so taking red, then green, then blue, then red again is at the fifth level fire power. Do that in Raiden I (red, blue, red, blue) and it's still at first level firepower, and that also holds true for Raiden II (red, blue, purple, red is still at first level firepower).

I do like that they started out with the three spread firepower in III, rather than the single stream of vulcan. But due to all those flaws I find in III, even the minor ones, I generally find myself playing I and II more than I do III these days.

[spadgy]

^ A nice reserved critique of III there. Good work.

Me, Aquas and Captain Ransom are all giving III a go now (Get involved! Play 'Aracde' difficulty), and I will say this.

I'm not just trying to be all showy (I only did alright a Double Playing it), but with experience of Double Play, Solo Playing III is damn harder. Half as much firepower, half as many ships to get to opposite sides of the screen for the quick kills. The more I play theis Solo Play, the more convinced I am that the enemy formations and the rhythm and position with with they appear is designed for Double Play (more so than I, II or IV).

[Obiwanshinobi]

In my opinion the only meaningful flaw of III is the green laser, which - sheer effectiveness aside - is just not an awful lot of fun to use.
III captures the essence of Raiden games - it's all about a single aircraft outgunning the whole screenful of enemies and (despite having more firepower) getting its butt kicked all the same BECAUSE THE GAME IS MORE DIFFICULT THAN IT LOOKS.
I also switched to the Arcade difficulty a while ago. Don't feel like posting a score yet as it's not much greater than my last score on Normal.

[mjclark]

In my opinion the only meaningful flaw of III is the green laser, which - sheer effectiveness aside - is just not an awful lot of fun to use.

But it makes your ship look like it's having a piss after a nuclear accident
and it's very good for getting the flash shot multiplier

[Obiwanshinobi]

Gradius V, Type 2, multiple laser - that's where my share of laser-pissing is done.

[Rozyrg]

Raiden II.

Probably only because I actually played it in the arcades as a kid and I thought it just blew most of the shooters I had played up that point completely out of the water. It wasn't until after arcades were long gone I found one I liked better, too. I missed the first one (I rented Trad for SNES once; but I won't count that) and I can't really comment on the Fighters series... it wasn't until years later I got to play them. The music and general feel is so different from the originals anyways.

I like III and IV a good bit, too; but it's hard for me to not think of them as fan games more than real sequels (despite the fact they are very well produced.) The originals showed off their creators' attention to detail so magnificently.. I can't play the recent ones without catching myself looking for things missing that the 'real' sequels might have, had they been made. It's pretty silly, I know; but that's just how grandiose the impression II left me with was. >_>

[MathU]

I like III and IV a good bit, too; but it's hard for me to not think of them as fan games more than real sequels (despite the fact they are very well produced.)

Does it have something to do with Seibu Kaihatsu not developing them? You realize that MOSS was created as a fallback company for Seibu Kaihatsu employees during its bankruptcy so that they could buy back and retain their original IPs, much like how Playmore was created. The games are essentially developed by the same people.

[Obiwanshinobi]

There's no denying that III and IV do not have the sort of production values old Raidens have. Like just about every single coin-op shmup released in this century, they cut quite a few corners.

[Rozyrg]

Does it have something to do with Seibu Kaihatsu not developing them? You realize that MOSS was created as a fallback company for Seibu Kaihatsu employees during its bankruptcy so that they could buy back and retain their original IPs, much like how Playmore was created. The games are essentially developed by the same people.

Yeah, I'm sure had to do with it too. I didn't know it was mostly the same people, though....very cool to know.

Then again, a lot of arcade games got downright lavish treatment, especially looking at how well console ports back then (don't) measure up to them in most cases. I guess it's not surprising...smaller teams and smaller budgets aside, the 'eye catch' business in gaming is so much different now. A game doesn't have to pour out pure adrenaline in every pixel in an attempt to hook you in less than 10 seconds anymore. But I digress.. I need sleep.

[Blackbird]

A game doesn't have to pour out pure adrenaline in every pixel in an attempt to hook you in less than 10 seconds anymore.

I'm not sure I agree with you. I think this is still true for big budget mainstream games, but there is a different mentality about how to make the game have that immediate, visual impact. A lot of that now seems to be about coming up with a unique graphical style or having photorealistic cutscenes =P.

[Rozyrg]

I'm not sure I agree with you. I think this is still true for big budget mainstream games, but there is a different mentality about how to make the game have that immediate, visual impact. A lot of that now seems to be about coming up with a unique graphical style or having photorealistic cutscenes =P.

Hmm... yeah, I could see that. Something is definitely different, though. It's hard to explain; but there's just this wonderfully endearing 'GET OVER HERE AND PLAY ME NOW' obnoxiousness that just seemed to disappear from games at some point. Excluding ones made by Sega, of course.

[Cuilan]

You realize that MOSS was created as a fallback company for Seibu Kaihatsu employees during its bankruptcy so that they could buy back and retain their original IPs, much like how Playmore was created. The games are essentially developed by the same people.

Aren't they split between MOSS and Gulti?

[spadgy]

I'm not sure I agree with you. I think this is still true for big budget mainstream games, but there is a different mentality about how to make the game have that immediate, visual impact. A lot of that now seems to be about coming up with a unique graphical style or having photorealistic cutscenes =P.

Hmm... yeah, I could see that. Something is definitely different, though. It's hard to explain; but there's just this wonderfully endearing 'GET OVER HERE AND PLAY ME NOW' obnoxiousness that just seemed to disappear from games at some point. Excluding ones made by Sega, of course.

iOS games (iPhone, iPad etc) have to, to a degree. They need to get everything across in a couple of screenshots with the App Store.

More on topic, I accept most of the criticism here aimed at III and IV, but there's something about them gameplay-wise very distinct that I can't help but adore. It's the Flash Shot system (combined with the fast bullets and slow ship speed). For me it encourages the boldest most aggressive playstyle I have in any shmup, and it;s as exciting as hell. High risk play right at the top of the screen pointblanking; devising a game route that lets you get as many 1.8x to 2.0x's as possible. I love the fact that the immediate reward for such high risk play is a staggeringly slight boon to your score, but playing your whole credit like that it all adds up, and you end up with a substantial lead.

I've been back playing III for a couple of evenings now, and it took me that long to get into the aggressive Flash Shot level, but it's amazing once you get there.

Perhaps it's because I'm a middling shmup player overall, and learning a Raiden III or IV level well and staying on top of everything getting the quick kills at the top of the screen makes me feel like I'm a better player than I am! Whatever, I bloody love it!

[Obiwanshinobi]

Why such little love for Raiden III? is it just because it's dull, or are there better reasons for disliking it?
I enjoy it cos it's pretty and I can play it tated on PC, but I know those things don't carry much weight round these parts.

According to my hunch, it's just that console people find III on the PS2 not as pretty and smooth as IV on the 360. Seems like not enough people play III on their PCs. Also, the laser thing.
Can't say I've noticed the blue laser being any more effective at point blank range. Point blanking is fun here and I do it a lot, but shooting the core seems more essential to me. The game's not very explicit about it, but many enemies come down faster if you place yourself right under the red glowing rhombus they sport. Works with the blue laser and R missiles as well as the spreadshot and R missiles, even if you are at the bottom of the screen.

[mjclark]

The game's not very explicit about it, but many enemies come down faster if you place yourself right under the red glowing rhombus they sport. Works with the blue laser and R missiles as well as the spreadshot and R missiles, even if you are at the bottom of the screen.

Wow! That's a secret that I never knew but really shows how everything about Raiden III is understated.
It's like the Colombo of shmups- brilliant and right on the money but always underestimated and therefore always surprising.

[spadgy]

I never knew that either! Wow!

*clicks 'Submit'*

*clicks 'Edit'*

There was just one more thing...

[mjclark]

I never knew that either! Wow!

*clicks 'Submit'*

*clicks 'Edit'*

There was just one more thing...

[Aquas]

Why such little love for Raiden III? is it just because it's dull, or are there better reasons for disliking it?
I enjoy it cos it's pretty and I can play it tated on PC, but I know those things don't carry much weight round these parts.

According to my hunch, it's just that console people find III on the PS2 not as pretty and smooth as IV on the 360. Seems like not enough people play III on their PCs.

I know Raiden IV and III would look godlike with an HD monitor and CRT monitor respectively, but I'm playing them on neither regardless and they are bad ass. Graphic whores!

The game's not very explicit about it, but many enemies come down faster if you place yourself right under the red glowing rhombus they sport. Works with the blue laser and R missiles as well as the spreadshot and R missiles, even if you are at the bottom of the screen.

Oh wow, interesting! I'll have to tinker with this whilst yelling "Fuck your rhombus!"

Edit: Awesome, it does indeed make a stark difference. Tested on the two side parts of the final boss.

[BPzeBanshee]

Obiwanshinobi, you're a genius.

When I finally get around to remaking my first game project I'm SO adding a feature like that.