Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

[spadgy]

To me, however, I see Touhou as the more obscure end of shmups.

I'm not sure what that image means (although it's pretty awesome!), but to clarify, I wasn't saying 'Touhou are the obscure shmups'. I was trying to say that, dependent on where you're looking from and your personal experience, the relative prominence of something can be vastly varied.

Subsequently, duckman's comments about Touhou as for those that are too 'poor' or too naive paint a picture I believe is too definite.

What is that image anyway?

[BPzeBanshee]

What is that image anyway?

I think it's meant to be Ronald McDonald reading a book and thinking "What the fuck am I reading".

[spadgy]

Ha ha! I thought it might have some meme-like meaning like Facepalm.

[Naut]

The first impression I got after playing DDP while being a touhoufag was indeed "Touhou is better"

Same here. I still remember how I found the game to be bullshit because it was too hard and bad because there was war machines instead of lolis and the music was the same for all bosses and that the stages have no soul.

Except for "too hard," this is all true

[ptoing]

Thing is that whether you have warmachines or lolis does not make a game better or not, or if you have different music on each boss or whatnot. What counts is balanced gamedesign, and DDP is way more balanced than any of the touhou games, and newer Cave games even more so on average. Also if you say the stages in DDP have no soul, what do the super bland almost non-existant stages in touhou games have? Negative soul?

[Zengeku3]

The first impression I got after playing DDP while being a touhoufag was indeed "Touhou is better"

Same here. I still remember how I found the game to be bullshit because it was too hard and bad because there was war machines instead of lolis and the music was the same for all bosses and that the stages have no soul.

Except for "too hard," this is all true

I like lolis in my shmups too. What I also like is fast paced stages that keeps me on my toes. Since Touhou stages are made to fit the music they are very slow-paced, even if challenging at times. Many times you get stages where nothing happens for thirty seconds since ZUN needs to show some message or because the music needs to get to a specific part in the song.

Its a cool aesthetic feature but in terms of gameplay, its a huge flaw that ruins a shmup with otherwise awesome gameplay.

And come on, the DoDonPachi boss theme is fucking awesome.

[Despatche]

Its a cool aesthetic feature but in terms of gameplay, its a huge flaw that ruins a shmup with otherwise awesome gameplay.

Do go on.

[Treasurance]

Thing is that whether you have warmachines or lolis does not make a game better or not, or if you have different music on each boss or whatnot. What counts is balanced gamedesign

why would I care about "balanced gamedesign" if the game isn't really fun to play and the audiovisual presentation tells me to fuck off? (MARS MATRIIIIIX)

[ptoing]

Of course fun is subjective. I am not a huge fan of MM either for example, or pretty much all Psikyo shmups (safe perhaps Zero Gunner 2).
I have to say tho that I find any Cave game to be lightyears ahead of Touhou stuff, in every regard. In the end, everyone should play what he enjoys, end of story. I guess the only thing annoying about Touhou really is the part of the fancrowd who has no clue about shmups and does not really play them, but makes comparisons as to how TH stuff is better than other shmups.

I hereby withdraw from this really fucking pointless thread.

[Zengeku3]

Its a cool aesthetic feature but in terms of gameplay, its a huge flaw that ruins a shmup with otherwise awesome gameplay.

Do go on.

With what exactly?

[Master Bigode]

For instance, listening to Fires of Hokkai causes internal bleeding

the only good song in the game

that godawful trumpet or whatever ruins most of the songs

I don't really mind the trumpet THAT much. It can get quite annoying at times though. Necrofantasia for example. Fortunately its from PCB which nobody cares about.

There are no trumpets in necrofantasia.

[Bananamatic]

There are no trumpets in necrofantasia.

then what is that infernal instrument that makes my ears bleed

[Master Bigode]

There are no trumpets in necrofantasia.

then what is that infernal instrument that makes my ears bleed

It's a pretty loud square wave + saw wave stack. ZUN probably didn't have enough time to arrange some of the songs in PCB, which explains why all of the music in Extra/Phantasm is louder than everything else in the game.

On a related note get better speakers

[Bananamatic]

On a related note get better speakers

in the case of PCB I'd be better off playing without them

[Naut]

How's UFO coming along

[Demetori]

I give Touhou a crack every now and then for fun, and I don't mind it. If you ignore the crowds of people who don't play it as an STG, shouldn't it at least garner a little bit of respect? It's been around long enough.

[Zengeku3]

I give Touhou a crack every now and then for fun, and I don't mind it. If you ignore the crowds of people who don't play it as an STG, shouldn't it at least garner a little bit of respect? It's been around long enough.

Its got some respectable bosses at least.

How's UFO coming along

Dunno why, but I get the impression that Bananamatic hasn't honoured his claim to get working on UFO Lunatic.

[eatingbadly]

This thread is so epic! lol

Touhou is popular because it's pretty, has great music, and is fun. It's simple compared to Cave games and Ikaruga, but it is still enjoyable for me at least. I love the characters too, especially Reimu.

I will say this: Embodiment of Scarlet Devil is hard as nails! Stage 4 boss is so difficult and sucks up my continues every time. I can clear about all the other games but this one...

BUT the Touhou fan base sucks. It is HUGE at least on the internet and very annoying. Keep in mind that a lot of those fans never play shmups other than TH and most of them would rather play the fighting games and fighting doujins or just draw lolis in "compromising positions."

BTW the new 3d fighting/shooting doujin Toho Sky Arena is really good. Will check to see if there's a thread and might start one if there isn't.

[Zengeku3]

This thread is so epic! lol
BUT the Touhou fan base sucks. It is HUGE at least on the internet and very annoying. Keep in mind that a lot of those fans never play shmups other than TH and most of them would rather play the fighting games and fighting doujins or just draw lolis in "compromising positions."

Epic indeed. Keep in mind though, that not only does these fans not play other shmups than Touhou. A huge part of the fanbase doesn't even play the games. They might try em' once or twice but its not like they get serious about it. Where's the fun in playing the games anyway? Nobody would be able to beat Flandre Scarlet on Lunatic anyway.

PS: Embodiment of Scarlet Devil is the only game outside of UFO I don't clear consistently on Lunatic difficulty. Its certainly one of the harder ones. Don't give up on it.

[Naut]

Nobody would be able to beat Flandre Scarlet on Lunatic anyway.

Just pointing this out before somebody pretending to not like touhou (like Bananamatic or Treasurance) points it out and says something sarcastic and inevitably stupid.

[gs68]

I can't exactly talk shit about Touhou fans who don't play the games, when I'm kinda into BlazBlue and Street Fighter's characters and such but don't play fighting games.

[shadowbringer]

and most of them would rather play the fighting games

I'm sure you don't mean IaMP, which is deep but difficult to get into, and even more difficult to try to play competitively. (fingers, I lack them)

edit: the last sequence of this video

[PROMETHEUS]

Also if you say the stages in DDP have no soul, what do the super bland almost non-existant stages in touhou games have? Negative soul?

Agreed, one of the reasons I don't play Touhou, even though I like the cool boss patterns.

[eatingbadly]

This thread is so epic! lol
BUT the Touhou fan base sucks. It is HUGE at least on the internet and very annoying. Keep in mind that a lot of those fans never play shmups other than TH and most of them would rather play the fighting games and fighting doujins or just draw lolis in "compromising positions."

Epic indeed. Keep in mind though, that not only does these fans not play other shmups than Touhou. A huge part of the fanbase doesn't even play the games. They might try em' once or twice but its not like they get serious about it. Where's the fun in playing the games anyway? Nobody would be able to beat Flandre Scarlet on Lunatic anyway.

PS: Embodiment of Scarlet Devil is the only game outside of UFO I don't clear consistently on Lunatic difficulty. Its certainly one of the harder ones. Don't give up on it.

This is true. In fact i think it is a really small percentage of Touhou fans that play the games more than a few times and even fewer who play the shmups enough to clear.

But touhou isn't good because it's "hard". I think CAVE games are way way harder and countless other shmups as well. touhou has a specific atmosphere to it that clicks with some people and doesn't with others.

as far as scarlet devil goes, i will have another go once i buy a new 360 controller connector. i downloaded the retexture patch and am hoping that makes the hitbox more visible on reimu. on a side note why do xbox controllers have 2 cords? i get the idea that if you jerk on the controller the extra connector pops off and saves your 360 from smashing on the ground but why not just put your xbox in a better location and solve the issue right there? when i find that connector i am duct taping the bastard together.

and most of them would rather play the fighting games

I'm sure you don't mean IaMP, which is deep but difficult to get into, and even more difficult to try to play competitively. (fingers, I lack them)

edit: the last sequence of this video

i think the most played touhou is actually Touhou Hisōtensoku 12.3

IaMP is great too though and hard. but fighting games are more accessible to the players that just want to see the characters anyway.

[Zengeku3]

This is true. In fact i think it is a really small percentage of Touhou fans that play the games more than a few times and even fewer who play the shmups enough to clear.

But touhou isn't good because it's "hard". I think CAVE games are way way harder and countless other shmups as well. touhou has a specific atmosphere to it that clicks with some people and doesn't with others.

Sure but that atmosphere is apparently only worth anything for a small percentage of the fanbase that actually plays the games. The rest are just into the fandom. And its really rare to see anything decent come out of that.

It just makes me a bit sad to see so many Touhou fans and having the knowledge that I, despite being nothing but an average casual shmup player, is still a god compared to those people in terms of danmaku skills.

[Despatche]

Except the 'atmosphere' is what makes the fandom and keeps it going.

[RNGmaster]

despite being nothing but an average casual shmup player

Being too humble here; not all of us can time out VoWG Lunatic.

Except the 'atmosphere' is what makes the fandom and keeps it going.

What the hell kind of atmosphere are we talking about? Gensokyo has no overarching theme except the lack of an overarching theme. It's just a place where ZUN has an excuse to cram together a bunch of disparate myths and magical girlfriends without having to explain anything. The story, as it stands, is always "Reimu finds something that poses a threat and tries to neutralize it; Marisa tags along to steal shit".

Don't talk bullshit about TH's storytelling.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Except the 'atmosphere' is what makes the fandom and keeps it going.

Plus the fact that touhou has taken over most of comiket that for many ppl been a doujin or a touhou fan are nearly the same thing. Oddly I think its by far its the shmup doujin crowd who genrally arnt into touhou (or even hate it) despite the original games been STGs.

Anyway I managed to make the time to play a couple of runs of IN on normal today and managed to 1CC Final B and get ending #1

I know normal isnt really that hard compared to Hard and Insane but as ive posted before playing touhou and tap dodging the boss fights just didnt seem natural to me due to me playing shmups with an analog stick most of the time and how its shaped my play style.

So I guess you guys are wondering if Ive dropped the whole "I hate Touhou" pretense and magically transformed into a frilly hat weeabo. Well now ive had chance to play IN (I still need to play the other games) and taken the time to get used to it somewhat. Ill say that once I got used to the fairies and concentrated on mastering the game I had quite a good time. Although the stages are rather bland (as well as his sprite work and backgrounds) I quite enjoyed the game and it made a nice change from the shmups I usually play and I plan to atleast make the time to play the other games in the future. Still while I had fun I wont say IN is the best shmup on the PC there are other better doujin STG imo

As well as the fairies and bland stages the only other minus points are that once ive memorised a path through the stages or the boss fights (in normal) is that the game is quite easy and rarly throws a curve ball your way. Although Ill say that this is quite common in many doujin games and one of the biggest difference between doujin and arcade shmups. The other negative point is that imo too much of IN score is in the last stage with the early stages only providing a small percentage of the score.

I'm going to continue playing IN in normal for now, I need to pratice the last stage a bit as I totally sucked in it and I still havnt hit my 2bil score target, Only 1.3bil atm

[Despatche]

What the hell kind of atmosphere are we talking about? Gensokyo has no overarching theme except the lack of an overarching theme. It's just a place where ZUN has an excuse to cram together a bunch of disparate myths and magical girlfriends without having to explain anything. The story, as it stands, is always "Reimu finds something that poses a threat and tries to neutralize it; Marisa tags along to steal shit".

Don't talk bullshit about TH's storytelling.

Don't look now, but you literally answered your own question. You've explained the entire point of Touhou's popularity.

[Zengeku3]

despite being nothing but an average casual shmup player

Being too humble here; not all of us can time out VoWG Lunatic.

An average casual shmup player. I haven't gotten seriously into playing for score, I have very few 1cc's under my belt and I've never hit a 2nd loop before.

I compare myself to the pros.