Legitimacy of "lagless"

[Udderdude]

Let's say you wired up the RGBC, audio and input signals up to a data acquisition board. At the same time, you also hook up the exact same input into some piece of hardware running MAME (on a RTOS), taking the outputs and hooking them out to the same board. You run a replay on the inputs and log the data. Let's say the data acquisition board detects that the signal output is identical within some level and temporal threshold that you can define as not giving you false negatives between two functional PCBs. Would the PCB and MAME (again, on a dedicated piece of hardware, not necessarily a PC) then be comparable to you?

You should also do the same thing with the same game, but two different PCBs and see if the difference is any greater. :P

[austere]

austere - I wasn't having a pop at MAME, I appreciate all your work. Maybe I shouldn't have wrote "doesn't compare", but you get the idea.

Dude, slag off MAME all you want. I'm just really interested in this discussion and I'm trying to make people realise something extremely important.

[Demetori]

The PCB is "the real thing". MAME is an emulator. It emulates.

It doesn't matter that it emulates. Console ports are less close to the PCB than MAME is, yet they don't emulate. They are still real. MAME is real.

So, how many shmups have you played in their original renditions on a PCB?
Just wondering, because. If you haven't really, who are you to judge? If you have then by all means!

[cools]

Something else that needs to be considered - performance gained or lost by paying for each and every credit in an arcade, with your screwups in full public view, versus playing the game at home for free. Which is a more real setup folks?

[PROMETHEUS]

The PCB is "the real thing". MAME is an emulator. It emulates.

It doesn't matter that it emulates. Console ports are less close to the PCB than MAME is, yet they don't emulate. They are still real. MAME is real.

So, how many shmups have you played in their original renditions on a PCB?
Just wondering, because. If you haven't really, who are you to judge? If you have then by all means! :D

I have played all Cave games on PCB, except for Pink Sweets and EspRade I think.
I have extended experience of DoDonPachi, Guwange and DOJ on MAME, Futari on X360. I have tried all of them on PCB. They are the same. Only Futari has some detectable speed differences, but still close enough.

[austere]

Something else that needs to be considered - performance gained or lost by paying for each and every credit in an arcade, with your screwups in full public view, versus playing the game at home for free. Which is a more real setup folks?

That's a much larger can of worms! :) Let's ban fake 1CCs!

[Demetori]

That's a much larger can of worms! Let's ban fake 1CCs!

Videos required of you sitting in an arcade playing the game, the establishments name and proof of ownership.

[captpain]

MAME in a cabinet isn't the same as a PCB. It'll perform slightly differently and often sub-optimally as compared to the equivalent PCB. But I think you know this already.

I don't. On my computer with a proper setup the games run quite perfectly with no speed difference, no sound or graphical problems... it's just flawless really :/
I have experienced that MAME runs sub-optimaly on other people's computers. Many people have buggy computers that just... lag. Not just input lag, but frequent hiccups too. But that's not MAME.

Even on a computer running the game without any hiccups, it's slightly different than the arcade. The screen frequency will be different, the sound will be synchronized differently, the graphics themselves will look slightly different at times (though I think the older Cave games are basically perfect in that respect).

That's not to say it won't be completely playable and worthy of competitive play, but it's still different, and the differences are almost never desirable.

[Barrakketh]

Something else that needs to be considered - performance gained or lost by paying for each and every credit in an arcade, with your screwups in full public view, versus playing the game at home for free. Which is a more real setup folks?

If we're going that route, add in playing the game at home for however much you spend on your PCB + setup (whether it be a cabinet or supergun). Your screwups aren't public that way, and you're not paying for your credits.

[PROMETHEUS]

That's not to say it won't be completely playable and worthy of competitive play, but it's still different, and the differences are almost never desirable.

What I've been trying to say all this time is different is good if gameplay is close enough. I absolutely don't care that my sound doesn't synch the same or that the graphics are slightly different.
That is :
1) completely irrelevant for competition.
2) so minor it just doesn't matter.
3) different but not worse, so even if you're just playing for entertainment your console port / MAME setup is perfectly cool.

Let's stop looking at PCBs as the absolute reference which they are not. Let's stop the PCB elitism.

Reminds me of times where I read many players say "you can't play shmups well without arcade stick and 24" TATE screen". Yeah right ! I totally don't mind playing on a 19" yoko screen and keyboard, doesn't hamper my performance at all. The elitism is stupid and often comes from people who pretend to be hardcore gamers when they just play for entertainement. Some also despise all of modern gaming, which is often far more competitive and hardcore than most shmups.

[system11]

So an SNES game run in an emulator isn't an SNES game?

It's still a SNES game, it is not the same experience as playing it on the console. Console emulation for the simpler ones is actually better than MAME emulation of arcade games, at least the hardware really is -always- the same on a console barring revision changes. In some MAME drivers you get multiple games where the hardware was significantly different.

People need to get over emulation not being perfect and just accept it as a perfectly serviceable alternative, certainly not superior.

[Vyxx]

Let's stop looking at PCBs as the absolute reference which they are not.

Yes they are, you just don't like it.

Some also despise all of modern gaming, which is often far more competitive and hardcore than most shmups.

[Despatche]

Maybe I should start banning MAME and true console ports in my boards, or at least separating them all.

[system11]

This is not OMG SERIOUS BUSINESS - just put them all in together as long as they're on the same rules and mode.

[Drachenherz]

My mother used to say: Les gouts et les couleurs, ca ne se discute pas.

Seriously: to each his own.

You, prom, play those games for the thrills of competition. Others like the true-to-the-arcade aspect of these games. And others like the hardware, be it the pcbs or the feel of a joystick/cab...

I'd dare say there isn't even an actual "right" way to p,ay these games. It's in the word "play" itself... Shouldn't playing be... Uhm... Fun?

This discussion here in this thread could be lead ad infinitum, but to what ends? Different people have different tastes and likes... And of course, the own tastes and likes, ones own opinions usualy are considered "the best" - by oneself.

Tl;dr:
Tastes and opinions differ, let's agree to disagree.

[austere]

let's agree to disagree

Does not compute.

[Udderdude]

SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET >:O

[mjclark]

You regard MAME as the main platform because it's all you can afford, and you refuse to accept the situation as it is - that you are playing an inferior version. There's nothing wrong with that, but this bizarre denial a lot of emulation players seem to be afflicted with is foolish.
What you are playing is not the same as the real thing, and it is not as good as the real thing.

Ha ha- we had all this shit when the Ketsui ROM became playable.
A lot of people here are getting their noses put out of joint cos they've paid hundreds of $$$$ for their setup so they don't like to see cheapasses like myself getting lots of enjoyment from those same games for nothing. This is all sposed to be FUN eh?
And although MAME emulation isn't perfect, we'd all agree that playing say Battle Garegga on MAME is a valid, enjoyable experience that we want to discuss and share scores.
If you have the resources to buy the PCB and that's your thing then good luck to you but don't try to invalidate the experience of MAME players.

[bitkid]

Prometheus has the highest scores on this board for DDP and Guwange and he practices in MAME using a damn keyboard. Mr. Monkeyman has the highest Ketsui score on this board and achieved that on PCB with gamepad and a 14" monitor. SinMoon stomps faces on a bunch of the 360 Cave ports. The bottom line is that if you put in the work you can achieve great things no matter what your play environment. I'd be willing to guess that any of these gentlemen could post high scores no matter what setup they were given whether it is console, PCB, MAME, MAME lagless, etc.

Ha ha- we had all this shit when the Ketsui ROM became playable.
A lot of people here are getting their noses put out of joint cos they've paid hundreds of $$$$ for their setup so they don't like to see cheapasses like myself getting lots of enjoyment from those same games for nothing. This is all sposed to be FUN eh?

After the Ketsui emulation was finished I grinded the game for 3 months in MAME and finally decided to buy the PCB because I liked it so much. I had no problems dropping the cash to pick up a board and I have no problems with people enjoying the game in emulation.

[captpain]

Prometheus has the highest scores on this board for DDP and Guwange and he practices in MAME using a damn keyboard. Mr. Monkeyman has the highest Ketsui score on this board and achieved that on PCB with gamepad and a 14" monitor. SinMoon stomps faces on a bunch of the 360 Cave ports. The bottom line is that if you put in the work you can achieve great things no matter what your play environment. I'd be willing to guess that any of these gentlemen could post high scores no matter what setup they were given whether it is console, PCB, MAME, MAME lagless, etc.

But lagless is cheeeeeeeeeattttingggg

[captpain]

[mjclark]

But lagless is cheeeeeeeeeattttingggg

If this thread continues for long enough we may very well discover that somehow owning the PCB is also cheating.

[Udderdude]

But lagless is cheeeeeeeeeattttingggg

If this thread continues for long enough we may very well discover that somehow owning the PCB is also cheating.

>implying you didn't resolder the ROMs with hacked code where you can't die and get 2x score on everything.

[austere]

... resolder the ROMs with hacked code ...

[TLB]

[captpain]

lmao

[cools]

News just in! MAME elitist claims elitists in other areas are not as hardcore as he!

Lets consider SHMUP competition as a sport. Rules are set down, everyone accepts, sport considered fair. Occasionally someone will bend or break these rules. Discussion ensues. Possible new rules. Sport considered fair again.

I'm still waiting for the narcotic Olympics. That'd be fun to watch.

[LeeVanCleef]

I am sure that with the tremendous amount of skill found on this site, players could use the version required and post scores with no problem.

In my opinion it only works if MAME is always recognized instead of just PCBs, because :
1) PCBs are too expensive to expect even all serious players to buy them (they aren't meant to be bought by players anyway).
2) Some players, like me, won't like to play with an arcade stick. It doesn't matter to me that the games were meant to be played with an arcade stick originally : they have never been made available to me through any other platform than MAME and I developped all my skill and experience on keyboard. I will not switch.

I regard MAME as the main platform for arcade gaming. The fact that it is unofficial is entirely irrelevant to me. It's close enough to perfection and adds a lot of extremely useful features (saved states being a MAJOR one, easy replay saving is another), making it a far better mean of practicing. It will also last forever, unlike the PCBs. Basically, I find it more perfect than arcade.

My point was simply to follow what versions the leaderboard requires. If the member does not allow Shmupmame he/she would state such. I am not talking about every goofy configuration just the version of the game being played for score. With your skill I imagine you could do fine playing the vanilla MAME version if the Shmupmame version is not allowed on that leaderboard.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend. It seems like a good solution to the fact that some players believe "lagless" MAME builds give players an advantage.

[PROMETHEUS]

I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend. It seems like a good solution to the fact that some players believe "lagless" MAME builds give players an advantage.

No I agree with you on that, it would be the simplest solution. There is no reason to exclude lagless now though since nimitz and austere have shown that it is actually closer to PCB response, and still not as fast.

[third_strike]

And to think all this fun has been generated because a post mine done after a wrong interpretation of Haze's posts ... I Really need search a English course.

Loving system11's troll too.