UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

cul wrote:What did Iraq had to do with 9/11? Ho WMD? Yeah right, still looking for them.
I did not say anything about Iraq. It's just that difference between civil war and any other war strikes me as cosmetical. Let the fat cunts grow fatter and sooner or later their internal affairs will become your affairs. Americans in Europe ended up telling countries how to do stuff, instead of letting them settle it by themselves (i.e. letting two biggest cunts conquer everything around and then go for each other's throats). It's easy to consider that intervention successful now since the US won and the era of unprecedented tranquility came along (of course the latter had more to do with the scale of recent hecatomb and fear of World War III than the US involvement in European theatre), but still - they sent their forces far away from home and that move led to their global supremacy. Their latest attemps to maintain it by similar acts (i.e. foreign interventions) at a smaller scale seem somewhat ill-fated, as if they only could go so far down this thorny path, but of all fat cunts on Earth they are certainly not the worst.
You asked for one example in history when a foreign intervention made things better and didn't trigger decades long civil wars - I believe both World Wars fit the bill.
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Zeron
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

Post by Zeron »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:
cul wrote:
You asked for one example in history when a foreign intervention made things better and didn't trigger decades long civil wars - I believe both World Wars fit the bill.

Can't exactly say what would have been so much worse if the Central Powers had won, if something Hitler would probably just been some average joe. Also WW1 was just a disaster many people displaced after empires fell revanchism for the loosers etc I could go on.
WW1 was one the most pointless wars in history there were no "good" guys just a bunch of hypocrite dicks all of them.

also WW1 triggered the Russian,Finnish,Hungarian civil wars and not sure if it's classified as a civil war but there were armed conflicts between the leftist and rights in Germany for example. Not to mention stuff like Mussolinis Fascism that rose due to Italy being bankrupt after the war
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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Zeron wrote:Can't exactly say what would have been so much worse if the Central Powers had won, if something Hitler would probably just been some average joe.
I'm not interested in dwelling on what would have been. We'll never know anyway.
Zeron wrote:Also WW1 was just a disaster many people displaced after empires fell revanchism for the loosers etc I could go on.
WW1 was one the most pointless wars in history there were no "good" guys just a bunch of hypocrite dicks all of them.
You don't say.
Zeron wrote:also WW1 triggered the Russian,Finnish,Hungarian civil wars and not sure if it's classified as a civil war but there were armed conflicts between the leftist and rights in Germany for example. Not to mention stuff like Mussolinis Fascism that rose due to Italy being bankrupt after the war
World War I - yes. The American intervention? I doubt it. My point was that particular intervention brought along more good than bad.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Obiwanshinobi wrote: World War I - yes. The American intervention? I doubt it. My point was that particular intervention brought along more good than bad.
WWI was an imperialist war waged for markets and I fail to see how the involvement of another imperialist power(which wasn`t any better or worse than the other parties involved) could bring more good. If the US had intervened to support the popular socialist revolutions that were taking place in Europe at that time, then yes, you would have a point. But that clearly wasn`t the case. Quite the opposite actually as the US being a reactionary force itself ended up aiding reactionaries.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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I am glad those popular socialist revolutions didn't end up like in the USSR. Shame about Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine, though. They got fucked real bad.
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Zeron
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Obiwanshinobi wrote: World War I - yes. The American intervention? I doubt it. My point was that particular intervention brought along more good than bad.

What good did it bring? That joke called the League of Nations?
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Peace? Like, the end of killing? If certain nations didn't have enough of it and stirred the shit shortly after, it wasn't America's fault, was it?
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Obiwanshinobi wrote:Peace? Like, the end of killing? If certain nations didn't have enough of it and
Peace would have came sooner if the US had kept its nose out of supporting the Tripple Entente :oops:

stirred the shit shortly after, it wasn't America's fault, was it?
The US had alot do with the carving up of Austria-Hungary for example which displaced alot of people overall stupid borders.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

Post by cul »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:Peace? Like, the end of killing? If certain nations didn't have enough of it and stirred the shit shortly after, it wasn't America's fault, was it?

Actually, the 1929 krach was one of the main cause of the one that followed in Germany, as the US gold in German banks used for the reconstruction of the country got brought back to the US to face the depression. Leaving Germany alone to deal with starvation.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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You might say they are sending in a ...UN Squadron.
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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Zeron wrote:Peace would have came sooner if the US had kept its nose out of supporting the Tripple Entente :oops:
Again, what would have happened is a matter of speculation, not a fact.
Zeron wrote:The US had alot do with the carving up of Austria-Hungary for example which displaced alot of people overall stupid borders.
Such problems are always rooted deeper in history. The thing about leftovers of multi-cultural empires is that you can never make everybody happy. Look at Balkans, that cursed land. The rest of Europe keeping their hands off the region didn't turn out to be the best solution (I suppose the victims of war would agree).
cul wrote:Actually, the 1929 krach was one of the main cause of the one that followed in Germany, as the US gold in German banks used for the reconstruction of the country got brought back to the US to face the depression. Leaving Germany alone to deal with starvation.
My, my, if you lose a war, you're screwed up, who would have thought. Of course singling out Central Powers as the bullying side of that conflict wouldn't be fair, but now it's pretty obvious that Germans' worst problem around that time wasn't the economy, but their conviction that they deserved to prevail because they were that fucking awesome. I don't believe World War II started because other countries made Germans SO MAD AND DESPERATE.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Obiwanshinobi wrote:I am glad those popular socialist revolutions didn't end up like in the USSR.
No, they didn`t. They ended up being fascist regimes which I guess is more okay with you.
Shame about Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine, though. They got fucked real bad.
Agreed, they got fucked real bad. I spent a good chunk of my life in Soviet Ukraine, it was a really nice place to grow up in. Now I never stop being amazed how free market "reformists" turned it into a complete shit hole over the course of just two decades with no future at all, industries dismantled and proletariat turned into lumpen. Private property over means of production has been re-established though, so who cares, am I right?
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Only tangentially related, but I couldn't help but have a good long laugh at this.

How in the world does he still get invited to talk about anything?
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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Jonathan Ingram wrote:
Obiwanshinobi wrote:I am glad those popular socialist revolutions didn't end up like in the USSR.
No, they didn`t. They ended up being fascist regimes which I guess is more okay with you.
I'm okay with Europe not being like Cuba right now.
Jonathan Ingram wrote:
Shame about Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine, though. They got fucked real bad.
Agreed, they got fucked real bad. I spent a good chunk of my life in Soviet Ukraine, it was a really nice place to grow up in. Now I never stop being amazed how free market "reformists" turned it into a complete shit hole over the course of just two decades with no future at all, industries dismantled and proletariat turned into lumpen. Private property over means of production has been re-established though, so who cares, am I right?
How could have possibly the socialist revolution turned bell up over there? Might have something to do with the lack of democracy. Not a single regime can be defined by who controls the means of production. Difference between so called countries of people's democracy and western European countries didn't boil down to that.
As far as I'm concerned, the whole derailment can be turned into a separate topic. Not that I feel any need to discuss about qualities of that system before capitalists came and broke it.
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Zeron
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

Post by Zeron »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:
Jonathan Ingram wrote:
Obiwanshinobi wrote:I am glad those popular socialist revolutions didn't end up like in the USSR.
No, they didn`t. They ended up being fascist regimes which I guess is more okay with you.
I'm okay with Europe not being like Cuba right now.
Bolshevism is not the only form of Socialism, Yugoslavia was a alright country for example(pre war) and there is Vietnam.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Yugoslavia was fairly independent of USSR by the Eastern Bloc standards, but even if Titoism was better than Stalinism, this isn't saying much. Not many regimes of "people's democracy" kept hardcore Stalinist state of affairs for long, but even if Yugoslavia wasn't as fucked up as Romania or Albania, I don't believe thay had freedom of speech, genuine free elections or that you could enter and leave it as easily as the people of EU can move from one country to another. If I'm right about that, it was a far cry from what an alright country stands for in my book.
Don't know about Vietnam, but last time I heard about it was in the context of Christian minority prosecution by Vietnamese authorities.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Obiwanshinobi wrote: My, my, if you lose a war, you're screwed up, who would have thought. Of course singling out Central Powers as the bullying side of that conflict wouldn't be fair, but now it's pretty obvious that Germans' worst problem around that time wasn't the economy, but their conviction that they deserved to prevail because they were that fucking awesome. I don't believe World War II started because other countries made Germans SO MAD AND DESPERATE.
Open a fucking history book and read it. Stop being so ignorant about history with your black and white storytelling, and stop lacking criticism against your country, that's aggravating.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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cul wrote:Open a fucking history book and read it. Stop being so ignorant about history with your black and white storytelling, and stop lacking criticism against your country, that's aggravating.
Not very substantial this. Care to elaborate? What exactly am I wrong about? By the way, I tend to be fairly critical against my country (which doesn't happen to be USA).
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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Obiwanshinobi wrote:or that you could enter and leave it as easily as the people of EU can move from one country to another. If I'm right about that, it was a far cry from what an alright country stands for in my book.
You could move anywhere in the world it was a well respected passport and the state would not bother you, the state even encouraged you to go work in Sweden,West Germany for example.


Also Yugoslavia was not even part of the Eastern Bloc as they refused to join the Warsaw Pact and were kicked out of the comitern during the split with Stalin in the 50s.

I don't believe thay had freedom of speech, genuine free elections
There was not institute for censorship but it continued up and down what was right to write and wrong depending if Liberal Socialists or Conservative Socialists were in charge of one of the six republics.

Free election were issued in 1990 but the country fell flat on its face within 1-2 years




Only Socialist country in the world where you could get your hands on Western products during the cold war.
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Re: UN clears way for Libya no-fly zone

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You could move anywhere in the world it was a well respected passport and the state would not bother you, the state even encouraged you to go work in Sweden,West Germany for example.
That's fair enough, but I'm not sure if it was actually as easy as you make it sound.
Poland, for instance, wasn't impossibly difficult to leave, but you could either leave on a leash of sorts, or burn the bridges behind you (effectively trading your citizenship for political asylum in the west). I'm simplyfing things a bit, but the authorities would have rather kept malcontents out of the country like that.
Interestingly, quite a few North Koreans work in EU countries, hired by human resource companies via North Korean diplomatic outposts. They come bundled with overseers, aren't allowed to move around freely or talk to the locals and their wages serve as pocket money for Kim Jong-il and his pals. Just a digression.
Also Yugoslavia was not even part of the Eastern Bloc as they refused to join the Warsaw Pact and were kicked out of the comitern during the split with Stalin in the 50s.
I know that, but sovereignty alone doesn't warrant observance of civilised standrads. Country's "native" authorities can be as detrimental to its people's welfare as installed by foreign powers, China being a drastic example.
Only Socialist country in the world where you could get your hands on Western products during the cold war.
I still doubt their economy was in a much better shape than that of GDR or Czechoslovakia (to name countries where it was indeed better than in the majority of Eastern Bloc). As for trading goods with western markets, I suppose Yugoslavia received some kind of preferential treatment, a bit like Greece got dragged into European Communities for political reasons, despite being economically not quite up to its standards at the time, or like Kosovo switched to euro as its official currency and got away with it as well as other shortcuts possibly because EU needs a friendly Muslim pet country as a poster child for the human face of Islam.
Don't get me wrong, considering the land's most recent history I can see why Yugoslavia is remembered fondly by some. What baffles me is that so many people in post-Soviet countries like Moldova (still not quite democratic by the way) or Ukraine appear to be genuinely MISSING the days of Soviet Union. I know right where their disappointment with free market policy stems from, have personally witnessed the decline and fall of "people's democracy", been as far as Eastern Ukraine in the mid-nineghties and found it dilapidated to say the least (my most persistent memory of that fairly enchanting land is one of those stray dogs getting hit by a car on a highway much worse than Mad Max films were shot on), but those who refuse to acknowledge any connection between the ancien régime and their country's current poverty don't seem to understand that if you keep letting things go to waste, you end up with fuck all at some point.
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