Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

[Nereid]

Don't judge this game before beating it.

By that logic, You and I and Bananamatic would have to beat UFO before we can judge it. And hard mode and below doesn't count.

This is truth. My opinion of the game improved significantly after I got the 1cc.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Even if I 1cc'd it, I would still think the game is terrible.

[Bananamatic]

Hellsinker gave me a phobia of calendars

[RNGmaster]

You shouldn't beat a game before judging it, but it would be nice if you gave it a solid effort instead of immediately writing it off. And if not, that's fine. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game.

Presentation is a pretty big part of game design.

I generally hate it when people harshly criticize a game without actually having played it, but when the game makes no effort to be friendly to newcomers, and looks as intimidatingly complex as Hellsinker does, I'd immediately count that as a flaw in game design. I'll give it a try, yes, but I can't guarantee that I'll like it.

Oh, and my question wasn't "What do all those item types do?", it was "What's the point of having so many item types - does it really enhance the experience, or is it just there to be arcane and complex?"

[Bananamatic]

Hellsinker knows what players like

ITEMS
LOTS OF ITEMS FALLING DOWN FROM THE SKY FROM THE ENEMIES, FROM THE BULLETS, FROM EVERYTHING

PICK THEM UP EVEN IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY DO. HOLY SHIT.

[Zengeku3]

Don't judge this game before beating it.

By that logic, You and I and Bananamatic would have to beat UFO before we can judge it. And hard mode and below doesn't count.

This is truth. My opinion of the game improved significantly after I got the 1cc.

So you're saying the only problem you had with the game was not being able to clear it?

I don't believe this however. I doubt the stages will suddenly become good just because i managed to squeeze in a Lunatic 1cc. My major problem with the game isn't the bosses any longer. Its how dreadfully boring the stages are. And how bland the music in those stages are. In fact, everytime I play the game i have a bit of fun but that dies out very fast because of how boring the stages are and then I don't feel like touching the game ever again. Until I decide to boot it up some months later. To the same effect.

[MathU]

Presentation is a pretty big part of game design.

I generally hate it when people harshly criticize a game without actually having played it, but when the game makes no effort to be friendly to newcomers, and looks as intimidatingly complex as Hellsinker does, I'd immediately count that as a flaw in game design. I'll give it a try, yes, but I can't guarantee that I'll like it.

Oh, and my question wasn't "What do all those item types do?", it was "What's the point of having so many item types - does it really enhance the experience, or is it just there to be arcane and complex?"

Try to understand that game depth is not a bad thing. It may not be for everyone who wants a quick burst of fun with no strings attached, but more depth is certainly never bad.

I think the problem here is you're trying to review a game without understanding the deeper mechanics.
Now I KNOW you hate it when mainstream reviewers give terrible, shallow reviews of shoot 'em ups with absolutely no mention of game mechanics because they simply don't care for the genre.

[RNGmaster]

Hellsinker knows what players like

ITEMS
LOTS OF ITEMS FALLING DOWN FROM THE SKY FROM THE ENEMIES, FROM THE BULLETS, FROM EVERYTHING

PICK THEM UP EVEN IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY DO. HOLY SHIT.

See, Crimzon Clover accomplishes this effect with only one or two kinds of item. (So does DDP, and ESP Ra.De, and Galuda, and Progear, etc. etc. etc.) And items in those games don't do ridiculously specific things like raising your rank or putting off a certain bonus level for later.

In your words, HOLY SHIT I JUST PICKED UP A BUNCH OF TERRA CHIPS

THAT MEANS I GET TO PLAY SHRINE OF FAREWELL AT SEGMENT 7 INSTEAD OF 6

THIS GAME IS SO AWESOME

yeah, doesn't have the same effect

Try to understand that game depth is not a bad thing. It may not be for everyone who wants a quick burst of fun with no strings attached, but more depth is certainly never bad.

Depth and complexity are different things. DDP, for example, has low complexity - all you do is move and shoot and bomb. You use these simple mechanics to pull off complex dodges, using lots of skill and finesse to move through bullets and target enemies of highest priority, all while trying to keep your chain going. In this way, DDP achieves a great level of depth with simple mechanics.

The same thing can be said of the shmups genre in general. "These items are good, pick them up, bullets and walls are bad so avoid them. Shoot or be shot." What's more, shmups generally only use 4 buttons and a single joystick at absolute max, so unlike the complexity of popular best-sellers like CoD. Shmups are a simplistic genre in general - note that that doesn't mean they're not deep or challenging.

Overcomplexity, on the other hand, is a bad thing, and Hellsinker has that in spades (I will reiterate - NINE MOTHERFUCKING ITEM TYPES). More depth is not bad, but adding more and more secrets and more complexity like Hellsinker does is not a good thing.

[Bananamatic]

In your words, HOLY SHIT I JUST PICKED UP A BUNCH OF TERRA CHIPS

THAT MEANS I GET TO PLAY SHRINE OF FAREWELL AT SEGMENT 7 INSTEAD OF 6

THIS GAME IS SO AWESOME

yeah, doesn't have the same effect

The best part of Hellsinker is that you can just ignore all the damn items.

If you want to take advantage of them, just remember this:
small blue with yellow S - restores bomb, and it restores damn fast - use them a lot

orbs come down in pairs
purple orb=less rank
green orb=more rank

some bosses have hidden forms if you maintain the rank high, but you can just pick both of them and nothing will screw up.

Just pick everything, no items can harm you like in Garegga.

[RNGmaster]

The best part of Hellsinker is that you can just ignore all the damn items.

So far I have been told, in response to my complaints about Hellsinker, "Just play for survival and ignore scoring" and "ignore item types and just pick them all up". So, basically if I want to enjoy the game I should take away all the complexity that is so integral to the Hellsinker experience and focus on dodging the bullets.

Except what's this? Most boss patterns are just dolled-up radials/shot circles and aimed attacks? And I have enough bombs to take down everything? And my aura makes it even easier to dodge?

Yeah, playing for survival doesn't look too compelling.

[Bananamatic]

IIRC some bosses are resistant to bombs and deploying a bomb means losing the auto-guard until you get another bomb.(by the way the guards aren't infinite)

One boss even gets bomb healing.

The aura works in different attack modes for different ships.

It's not the hardest or the most competitive shmup out there but it's perfect if you just want to mindlessly blow shit up.
Plus it has that awesome atmosphere.

[Treasurance]

the fake overcomplexity was probably an intentional design choice to make the game even more obscure

Plus it has that awesome atmosphere.

THIS

in terms of sheer numbers, it's probably the biggest doujin shmup out there: 14 stages (8 main stages + Shrine of Farewell + alternate first 3 stages + 2 extra stages) and 8 shot types

also 3 different final bosses

[Ebbo]

Plus it has that awesome atmosphere.

I do think HS is a great game even though at times it does feel like style over substance and the learning curve can seem quite steep for beginners - even simply choosing different equipments for characters can be hard to figure out without a guide. But on the other hand playing any high depth shooter on "advanced level" most likely requires some familiarising with guides/superplays no matter how simple the actual gameplay mechanics are and as stated HS doesn't require complete zen-like understanding of all its ins and outs so that you can enjoy it, although it obviously helps with "what the fuck am I doing?" feeling.

[RNGmaster]

I do think HS is a great game even though at times it does feel like style over substance and the learning curve can seem quite steep for beginners - even simply choosing different equipments for characters can be hard to figure out without a guide. But on the other hand playing any high depth shooter on "advanced level" most likely requires some familiarising with guides/superplays no matter how simple the actual gameplay mechanics are and as stated HS doesn't require complete zen-like understanding of all its ins and outs so that you can enjoy it, although it obviously helps with "what the fuck am I doing?" feeling.

Finally, a voice of reason!

[gs68]

So far I have been told, in response to my complaints about Hellsinker, "Just play for survival and ignore scoring" and "ignore item types and just pick them all up". So, basically if I want to enjoy the game I should take away all the complexity that is so integral to the Hellsinker experience and focus on dodging the bullets.

You could replace Hellsinker with any other game and sounds like what most people would say in response to playing for score. Never mind that, you know, some other players think playing for score is fun.

[RNGmaster]

You could replace Hellsinker with any other game and sounds like what most people would say in response to playing for score. Never mind that, you know, some other players think playing for score is fun.

You don't need to tell ME that - I love playing for score.

[PureQuestion]

Wasn't this topic supposed to be about Touhou? :S

[gs68]

Wasn't this topic supposed to be about Touhou? :S

It was, a long time ago in a forum far far away.

[Zaarock]

I started playing Hellsinker when there was no english guide and hardly any info about it at all. Shoot the Core said it was a weird game with a sword mechanic That made it more fun for me, I was exploring an (apparently) really complex and atmospheric game and stuff like getting into shrine of farewell etc. was a complete surprise at first. The later levels and boss fights really made me get impressed with the game. After convincing LtC- to try the game we started making the guide in the strategy forum.

I guess it is style over substance, but I love the presentation and music. Some of the level design has some great ideas and the later bosses are just awesomely designed. The rank mechanics are also pretty interesting. Playing for spirits(score) is obnoxious IMO, too much enemy/boss milking etc. Maybe playing for tokens would be sort of fun but the game isn't really centered around those.

Should probably split this hellsinker stuff into another thread though :d

[duckman]

Touhou is for people who are too poor to import and/or don't know how to emulate.

[spadgy]

^ That's a bold first post! I'm pretty sure lots of people just like Touhou.

[Vyxx]

Touhou is for people who are too poor to import and/or don't know how to emulate.

Bring on the ugly.

[spadgy]

Touhou is for people who are too poor to import and/or don't know how to emulate.

Bring on the ugly.

No doubt!

[duckman]

^ That's a bold first post! I'm pretty sure lots of people just like Touhou.

I like Touhou as well, but what I said is still true — that is, that kiddies new to STGs tend to become, and remain, Touhou fanatics because they cannot access older (and much better) arcade titles, whether due to not emulating, being too poor to import, laziness, or because they're hipsters who spam the stupid memes Touhou has spawned. It's like how average dolts who only play Xbox FPSs rarely play PC FPSs — in both cases, their taste in games has been constricted and distorted due to outside circumstances, rather than because they've played lots of games and made their own judgements.

[Treasurance]

what? everything on MAME sucks except Battle Garegga

doujins and iPhone are where it's at

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Yea faeries rule! Every video game should have faeries

[Zengeku3]

what? everything on MAME sucks except Battle Garegga

That includes Esp.Ra.De, DoDonPachi, DOJ, Ketsui, Esp.GaLuDa and Dangun Feveron. You can't possibly mean all that sucks.

Touhou is for people who are too poor to import and/or don't know how to emulate.

Nah, not really. Its easy to figure out how to emulate stuff and even if you can't work out how to get some specifics about emulation right, it's easy to get some help for it. Touhou is a shmup that just relies more heavily on its bosses rather than its stages that are usually very simple and it also relies very heavily on characters and lore that appeals to a broad audience of people that probably wouldn't have been interested in shmups if it weren't for Touhou.

In short, I doubt most Touhou fans are the slightest bit interested in those emulated/imported arcade shmups.

[RNGmaster]

That includes Esp.Ra.De, DoDonPachi, DOJ, Ketsui, Esp.GaLuDa and Dangun Feveron. You can't possibly mean all that sucks.

You should know he's trolling by now. (but seriously, man, don't talk shit about ESP Ra.De)

It's like how average dolts who only play Xbox FPSs rarely play PC FPSs — in both cases, their taste in games has been constricted and distorted due to outside circumstances, rather than because they've played lots of games and made their own judgements.

You're implying that, if Touhou fans got a chance to play arcade-style shmups, they would immediately change their minds and stop playing TH. In my case this was true, but it's actually uncommon. The number of valiant TH defenders on Youtube bears out the truth that, despite all I might say, some people have actually come to the conclusion that TH is superior. I've met people who said "I played Galuda and Mushi Futari and I still like TH more".

What you're trying to do is convince yourself that TH is an objectively inferior product, and the only people who enjoy it are people who haven't seen an alternative. Fact is, there's no accounting for taste.

[Jeneki]

Touhou hate topics are always hilarious.

Here's a dirty secret: I like Aero Blasters on the Turbografx. A while back, I played it to the point where I could 1cc the game every time. But there isn't even a topic for it in the high score forum (or Air Buster for that matter), so I really doubt anyone cares or it will get me any "shmup cred" here. But screw you all, it won't stop me from tossing it in every once in a while.

By choosing to devote your game time to a shmup, you've already proven you don't care what other gamers think. I'm not sure why people would start caring the second they sign up here.

[Treasurance]

That includes Esp.Ra.De, DoDonPachi, DOJ, Ketsui, Esp.GaLuDa and Dangun Feveron. You can't possibly mean all that sucks.

forgot about DOJ but I prefer playing it on PCSX2 anyways

also not touching galuda before they get the sound working