Which of the Touhou Games is the Best in the Series?

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Its a shame ZUN is so addicted to fairies because if he used more intresting and easily recgnisable sprites his games would be so much more enjoyable as I quite like IN's scoring system especially the Human Yukia bar and the Point of Collection. It would be great if someone hacked the games and swopped the sprites.

Or, you could just play LLS and MS. LLS had almost entirely different enemies for each stage up until #5. But then again, that stage only serves as a breather for when you're robbed of your stock by that evil shrine maiden Reimu. :twisted:

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Heres are vids of most of Zun's games, just to take note is how his stage design evolved over time.

PC98 era
TH02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB8CEK5XKC0
TH03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aoq8P6xGXoE
TH04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY9ME2UusP8
TH05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el9C34ay ... re=related
PC Era
TH06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fCtDmjb ... re=related
TH07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLq6F4Ixtok
TH08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWjwi0FOEW8
TH09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEIFzGuPJWU
TH10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gENsqCIpq04
TH11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFNxHXEM ... re=related
TH12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpQRvHqm_9c
TH13 Pics only http://kourindou.exblog.jp/

If you look at Touhou's PC98 era ZUN was used more varied sprites although by TH05 all he used was 1 ghost sprite and the faery sprite in 2 or 3 colours. When Touhou comes to the PC is when ZUN's love affair with the bloody faeries really starts and thus his stages become blander for it.

I think 6, 7 & 8 is his worst period imo, TH 09 is a bit of a watershed with ZUN mixing the enemies up (if only slighty). This last 3 games up to TH12 ZUN has lazily used the same sprites between them, but I prefer these to his earlier windows games as atleast the mini boss like baddies have large wings and are easy to tell apart from the popcorn.

Its a shame ZUN cant give up his faery addiction and copy from those doujin circles who have copied from him but drop the faeries and add their own twist like Exceed 3rd Black Package (I loved playing BP for score), Seihou 3 + RebRank, Hellsinker, TwINs.

I wonder why he continues to use just 2 or 3 faery sprites in his games. Any of you Touhou Nuts have any information on this? And you guys who like me are put off by the games bland stages, could you begin to like Touhou if ZUN went back to making stages like his PC98 games or scrapped those faeries forever and used somthing like Rebrank, TWins and Exceed? I know I would

[TrevHead (TVR)]

What would you propose that he add as cannon fodder enemies that fits the setting?

Any number of youkai or horror type enemies (cute-sified, of course) would work... his setting is actually a lot more flexible than you might think.

There are tons of youkai in the games, and they take the form of almost all of the bosses. Exceptions include Cirno (fairy), Suwako and Kanako (gods), Sakuya/Reimu/Marisa/Sanae (humans).

Basically, any youkai that isn't involved with whatever incident the heroines are out to investigate are smart enough to stay the hell away from them. Those that are involved appear as the (mid-)bosses. The fairies "work" because they are simple-minded manifestations of nature who quickly regenerate and don't fear death (to be more accurate, their concept of death is different from mortals). They are also everywhere in Gensokyo.

So while ZUN has a great number of youkai to use as enemies, you'd have to come up with a good reason why they would more-or-less willingly become something the heroines are going to mow down after being attacked. They aren't really used as generic characters in the series.

The bosses are fine, its the stage popcorn that spoils the game.

While I dont give a shit about the story as gameplay is the most important thing in a shmup and once you or the dev need to make major compromises to the gameplay to keep in cannon then things have gone very wrong in my book. However this isnt the case with Touhou as his PC98 games used non loli faeries (or identical looking loli demons) and beside ZUN's world is in a fantasy setting meaning he can add whatever he likes http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt

[ptoing]

I think he is just kinda lazy.

[Naut]

I wonder why he continues to use just 2 or 3 faery sprites in his games. Any of you Touhou Nuts have any information on this? And you guys who like me are put off by the games bland stages, could you begin to like Touhou if ZUN went back to making stages like his PC98 games or scrapped those faeries forever and used somthing like Rebrank, TWins and Exceed? I know I would

I find Touhou shitloads easier to memorize than enemy diarrhea games like DDP or Mushihimesama, because I memorize what the enemies do, not what the look like. I know the big enemies shoot large static patterns while the small ones will shoot smaller, usually aimed bits of bullets. Everything else is how they approach you. I still don't have large chunks of DFK memorized because there's just so much goddamn shit everywhere you can't tell it apart. Actually, here's a question, you complain about how you can't tell enemies apart because they don't have different sprites. Why the hell are you looking at them? Shouldn't you be looking at their bullets so you can dodge them...? At best you get a peripheral glimpse at their size and that'll tell you what kind of ordinance you can expect from them.

For the second bit, I grossly prefer his stages nowadays. PC98 is boring as shit. Different looking enemies doesn't make up for his poor at best stage design.

I'm not saying I object to different looking enemies, sure, the game could probably improve if he made more sprites to work with (I've seen several new ones just from screenshots of his new game, Ten Desires, so it looks like this may be the case), but I certanily don't think it's important.

I think he is just kinda lazy.

Yeah man, he just does absolutely everything involved with making a game, he's totally lazy.

[ptoing]

I did not say totally lazy, I said kinda.

I do not see the difficulty in making as many games as he does at this point, seeing he does not have to make a new engine for every game to begin with. The backgrounds look like they are done on a long weekend, same goes for the HUD and interface. Just saying that he probably does not see the point in doing more varied enemies because what he has works for him.

[shadowbringer]

I find Touhou shitloads easier to memorize than enemy diarrhea games like DDP or Mushihimesama, because I memorize what the enemies do, not what the look like. I know the big enemies shoot large static patterns while the small ones will shoot smaller, usually aimed bits of bullets. Everything else is how they approach you. I still don't have large chunks of DFK memorized because there's just so much goddamn shit everywhere you can't tell it apart. Actually, here's a question, you complain about how you can't tell enemies apart because they don't have different sprites. Why the hell are you looking at them? Shouldn't you be looking at their bullets so you can dodge them...? At best you get a peripheral glimpse at their size and that'll tell you what kind of ordinance you can expect from them.

backgrounds help people remember dynamically whick kinds of enemies will appear before they even get to appear, and helps one plan how to deal with their attacks beforehand. Enemy sprites help the player remember which kinds of attacks these enemies have used before. These two elements (backgrounds and sprites) give the player more information to work with, rather than trial and error.

See (your favorite, eheh) EoSD, for example. Stage 4 enemies can fire aimed shots at you, and then the next wave they will fire aimed away shots from you. This same kind of enemy will also come down to the screen on formations while firing spreadshots, so if you don't speedkill them (by standing below where they'll appear) isn't good. Stage 5 maid fairies have different attacks as well, you can safespot some of them, others may get you trapped at the upper half of the screen where fairies which fire spreading rings of bullets come down to the screen. Also, grazing implies memorization (for remembering which patterns will be used before the enemies even appear), but these two elements don't help, so the player has to repeat the same steps, whatever he/she chooses to be what's the best route he/she can do at the moment. But I'll agree if you say that DDP isn't much flexible (regarding chaining), even though intuitive regarding having a feel of the chain meter but not flexible in terms of having your runs feel the same on a lot of checkpoints (like some people have worded it, "be here" moments)

Also, looking at bullets after they've been fired (as a way of remembering stages) can lead to you being cornered/walled, until you internalize that pattern, and also yield less reaction and foresight time.

For the second bit, I grossly prefer his stages nowadays. PC98 is boring as shit. Different looking enemies doesn't make up for his poor at best stage design.

while it's true that there are a lot of times where certain enemies on one stage will use one type of attack repeatedly (example: IN stage 5, MoF stage 4, SA past stage 1, stage 5, UFO stage 3, etc..), the idea of dying because you mismemorized the stage rather than made a bad decision (which turned out to be handicapped by having less information to make a decision from) is upsetting, imho.

SoEW is boring, as it was the series' first shmup (and with no elaborate scoring system), but the mechanics of LLS and MS are worth a look, and are flexible. It's so much easier and not frustrating to memorize rules (for example, bombing on LLS to collect items at double value) than to memorize data (enemy placement, how to get the most graze from them, how to move so that the fairies won't wall you, when/where will enemy Y appear so you can speedkill it before it becomes a problem, etc).

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

And you guys who like me are put off by the games bland stages, could you begin to like Touhou if ZUN went back to making stages like his PC98 games or scrapped those faeries forever and used somthing like Rebrank, TWins and Exceed? I know I would

Yes. And since this is more of boss rush type game, he should use more mid-bosses if he wants to drag out the stages for his compositions to make the stages feel less empty.

[RNGmaster]

Yeah man, he just does absolutely everything involved with making a game, he's totally lazy.

Yeah, it must be an absolutely herculean effort to create 5 pallette-swapped bullet types, copypasted patterns, and 2 pallette-swapped enemy types, on top of all the work rendering the nearly-empty backgrounds that loop every 5 seconds.

Don't kid yourself.

[Naut]

Yeah man, he just does absolutely everything involved with making a game, he's totally lazy.

Yeah, it must be an absolutely herculean effort to create 5 pallette-swapped bullet types, copypasted patterns, and 2 pallette-swapped enemy types, on top of all the work rendering the nearly-empty backgrounds that loop every 5 seconds.

Don't kid yourself.

You're retarded mentally challenged

[RNGmaster]

You're retarded mentally challenged

Not saying he's totally lazy - some of the patterns are fun and he's a great composer.
I will say, though, that it's ridiculous to say that he isn't a lazy artist. He only uses a few sprites, character cut-ins are awful, and he recycles assets endlessly. I am aware there's more to games than graphic design, yes, but ZUN is a lazy artist.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

You're retarded mentally challenged

Nope, that's totally not like a Touhou fan to be getting all defensive about their relig- I mean favorite game series! not at all!

[Zengeku3]

The last 4 posts in this thread... are pure gold. Just sayin'

[RNGmaster]

The last 4 posts in this thread... are pure gold. Just sayin'

This is why I love shmups forum.

[Zengeku3]

The last 4 posts in this thread... are pure gold. Just sayin'

This is why I love shmups forum.

Yes and had this been MoTK (a Touhou forum i frequent in case you don't know) everyone here but Naut would've been banned.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

>Come to shmups forum to take a break from the Touhou craze
>Continue discussing nothing else but Touhou

This is why I love you Zengeku.

[Naut]

You're retarded

Nope, that's totally not like a Touhou fan to be getting all defensive about their relig- I mean favorite game series! not at all!

Has nothing to do with this. What he said was fucking stupid, regardless of whether or not you like ZUN's games. His "correction" on the art is much more logical and would've received no flak from me.

You're retarded mentally challenged

Nope, that's totally not like a Touhou fan to be getting all defensive about their relig- I mean favorite game series! not at all!

I wanted to blend in with the troll community here and I think I've finally done a good job at hiding my frilly dress and rediculous hat now

Yes and had this been MoTK (a Touhou forum i frequent in case you don't know) everyone here but Naut would've been banned.

You're retarded mentally challenged

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I dunno, wouldn't calling someone mentally challenged for disagreeing be a probatable offense there?

Oh wait, the mods/admins get to get away with that shit.


And let's not forget how bashing someone that is bashing a Touhou game is apparantly allowed too considering when Zengeku, Bananmatic, and I were bashing UFO all the ones that trolled us, the posters, when we were just talking about a game didn't even get punished for it.

[Naut]

I'm neither a mod nor admin on that site, don't start a stupid forum war over this silly shit here guys.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Aren't the Shrine Janitors pretty much moderators?

[Naut]

No, we have absolutely no power over any member in the community, all we do is move threads around to their right place, keep large opening posts updated (like score threads) and resize images.

[Bananamatic]

he's a great composer.

[RNGmaster]

Yes and had this been MoTK (a Touhou forum i frequent in case you don't know) everyone here but Naut would've been banned.

You are aware I used to post on MotK as "omgrandomnumbers", right? I think I sent you an email, but...

This isn't an anti-MotK thread. They're good people, some of them post regularly here (helloooo, Sapz and Jaimers) and the STG threads on Akyu's Arcade were good times (tm).

With that in mind, let's return to our usual schedule of blatant provocation, flame wars, and crazy logic.

Oh, and Banana, you can't say that MoF Stage 5 isn't good music. Some of his earlier stuff is ear rape, especially PCB, but he's a good musician.

[Bananamatic]

I don't even remember MoF st5 music
Sanae's theme has 10 pretty cool seconds though

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

ZUN should use the accordian in more of his songs. Seriously if it sounds this good in FM synth, imagine how good it would be now.

[Zengeku3]

You are aware I used to post on MotK as "omgrandomnumbers", right? I think I sent you an email, but...
This isn't an anti-MotK thread. They're good people, some of them post regularly here (helloooo, Sapz and Jaimers) and the STG threads on Akyu's Arcade were good times (tm).

I wasn't aware of that, sorry. And I have nothing against MoTK at all. Its a nice place and some cool people goes there. I just don't like how you get probated as a troll if you dare say something negative about one of the games.

he's a great composer.

Ah come on. ZUN makes a lot of good music.

Yes and had this been MoTK (a Touhou forum i frequent in case you don't know) everyone here but Naut would've been banned.

You're retarded mentally challenged

Mentally challenged huh? I wonder why you'd go around and call people such things.

[Naut]

Yes and had this been MoTK (a Touhou forum i frequent in case you don't know) everyone here but Naut would've been banned.

You're retarded mentally challenged

Mentally challenged huh? I wonder why you'd go around and call people such things.

Only when people say absurdly stupid things. Observe:

I just don't like how you get probated as a troll if you dare say something negative about one of the games.

You're retarded mentally challenged

anyways motk tangent stop, nobody here wants to read about the drama there

[Zengeku3]

Alright then. If I am so absurdly stupid then maybe you would enlighten me a bit about the reason we were probated in that period? I don't consider myself mentally challenged or anything like that and I don't want people calling me that without explaining exactly what they mean. Simply saying that I said something stupid won't suffice. You need to make clear what was stupid about it.

As far as I am concerned Bananamatic, I and Enigma was probated because we didn't like UFO and we didn't find people's arguments to be convincing enough. I was told that it was because we were unreasonable and ignored proven facts etc.

[Bananamatic]

facts

*opinions

[Sapz]

Dudes, PMing exists for a reason. I will happily discuss things with you through those rather than in some unrelated thread.