Cave's Ketsui(2002): Fair or just a coin-grave?

[cmonig]

I recently tried Ketsui and found it quite difficult.
Has someone of you managed to "master" it using one coin?
Or is it just designed as a coin grave?

[Plasmo]

Nice topic.

[Jockel]

Quite a few managed to 1cc it around here.

[Aconcit]

I'm by no means an expert at it but I know for sure that it and its loops are possible to 1cc. After each death in Ketsui there's never really a moment where I thought "There was nothing I could have done to avoid that." Also with each obstacle that you have trouble with you'll eventually overcome after playing for awhile and move on to the next one.

[dannnnn]

Plenty of people on here have 1CC'ed it, just check the score thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... lit=ketsui

I think it's just a game that demands to be practiced. If you don't really know what to expect, stages 4 and 5 can be brutal. I haven't put much time into it yet myself so I can feel your pain, it would probably cost me a week's wages to credit-feed in an arcade.

[Dave_K.]

Its only a coin-grave if you buy the PCB.

[RNGmaster]

Look, if the game was actually impossible and unfair it wouldn't have that many fans. You have to understand, shmuppers like difficulty, but we also hate games that just throw up impossible situations that can't be bypassed. (In Ketsui's case, you do much more damage if you're closer to the enemy, so try to stay on the top of the screen.)

Ketsui is beyond me (I can't get past 1-4), but judging by the preponderance of superplays and 1ccs of it I can tell it's possible. If you like the game, don't get discouraged, and use save-states to practice.

Do note, though, that if you're going to keep complaining about how these games are "impossible", you're on the wrong forum.

[Zengeku3]

You're just gonna have to practice it a bit more. Its a tough game but very fun once you get into it. Even if you suck at it like I do.

[crackfox]

This game takes a lot of patience to master....
I am nowhere near mastering it but i have had a lot of enjoyment from it!!!
Stage 4 sucks ass!!!!

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I've only gotten to stage 4 in it once and usually game over on Stage 3. The patterns in the game are just way too confusing, so I prefer Dai-Ou-Jou.

[emphatic]

The patterns in the game are just way too awesome

^^fixed.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

They are, but they're still confusing at times.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Do note, though, that if you're going to keep complaining about how these games are "impossible", you're on the wrong forum.

The guy hasnt made a complaint at all, he just asking us if we think the game is a coin eater or not (which some older arcade games really were).

I have no idea how skilled you are at arcade shmups but if your new to the genre ild recommend you try something abit easier if you plan on 1Credit Clearing the game.
Ild recomend you try to clear the 1st loop of Dodonpachi aka DDP on mame (usefull with save state praticing). DDP compared to many other Cave shmups is quite easy especially if you ignore scoring. Plus it has a simlar theme to ketsui so you should enjoy it.

[dinosaurjerk]

just believe in yourself man. don't give up, and use your "burning spirit" to find the power to overcome.

[shadowbringer]

just believe in yourself man. don't give up, and use your "burning spirit" to find the power to overcome.

I'm tempted to say "don't believe in yourself! Believe in me who believe in you!", but.. too late, done that already.

@OP: if "one coin" means by playing the first time, then no. If "one coin" means using only 1 credit, it's still very difficult to completely "master" the game, which is a good thing. (shows how much this game is interesting to play even for a prolonged time at a high level). I used to think shmups were "coin graves", unfortunately, though, I don't know how I exactly I transitioned from this thought to being able to appreciate shmups. Maybe at that time I learned about the importance of reading tutorials, FAQs and stuff which explained concepts such as bullet herding, not staying at the bottom of the screen, not dying with bombs, etc..

[Alec]

Its only a coin-grave if you buy the PCB.

[third_strike]

The patterns in the game are just way too confusing, so I prefer Dai-Ou-Jou.

True!
I used to think which DOJ the enemies ware stronger than player ship, but in ketsui the enemies are 3x stronger than player ship.
Example: in any stage when you are taking care of a enemy in left side a enemy in right side is filling the screen of bullets. The left side enemy never die and when you finally finish it the screen is already full of bullets and you lose control.
Resuming: The enemies never die in fist half of screen, they die only bottom of screen after spread lots of bullets.
To survive you will need memorize all!

[Obiwanshinobi]

Look, if the game was actually impossible and unfair it wouldn't have that many fans.

Dunno about that. Early Atari version of Montezuma's Revenge was impossible to complete (it came out unfinished), and yet quite a few folks fell for it (i.e. pirated it to hell and back).
More like "if it wasn't by Cave and already playable on MAME, it wouldn't have that many fans".

[Sumez]

Screw 1cc. One day, maybe I'll be able to complete stage 2

[BPzeBanshee]

Look, if the game was actually impossible and unfair it wouldn't have that many fans.

Dunno about that. Early Atari version of Montezuma's Revenge was impossible to complete (it came out unfinished), and yet quite a few folks fell for it (i.e. pirated it to hell and back).
More like "if it wasn't by Cave and already playable on MAME, it wouldn't have that many fans".

This.

Honestly, the Ketsui discussion has only really kicked up since it's been made playable on MAME, or rather the "Whatever happened to the Ketsui dump?" thread started racking up pages. In the time I've been browsing this place I only really heard of it when people started kicking the bucket on the matter and the Raiden II dev team + Haze decided to work on the driver for the PGM hardware.

[Zengeku3]

The patterns in the game are just way too confusing, so I prefer Dai-Ou-Jou.

True!
I used to think which DOJ the enemies ware stronger than player ship, but in ketsui the enemies are 3x stronger than player ship.

Funnily enough, I consider Ketsui to be a lot easier than DOJ.

[Subterranean Sun]

The patterns in the game are just way too confusing, so I prefer Dai-Ou-Jou.

True!
I used to think which DOJ the enemies ware stronger than player ship, but in ketsui the enemies are 3x stronger than player ship.
Example: in any stage when you are taking care of a enemy in left side a enemy in right side is filling the screen of bullets. The left side enemy never die and when you finally finish it the screen is already full of bullets and you lose control.
Resuming: The enemies never die in fist half of screen, they die only bottom of screen after spread lots of bullets.
To survive you will need memorize all!

The player ship in Ketsui isn't weak, just tricky to use. Point-blanking is essential; lock-shoot is pretty much useless unless you engage enemies at point-blank range. Killing stuffs while you are near the bottom of screen will take much, much longer than they will if you are standing right before your target's nose. Some peoples doesn't like this, but if you ask me, this is one of the reason why I like Ketsui so much -- it requires you to play in a much more aggresive way than you did in any other Cave games. Well, aside from maybe Dangun Feveron.

Its only a coin-grave if you buy the PCB.

Well, but you could just set it to free play.

The patterns in the game are just way too confusing, so I prefer Dai-Ou-Jou.

True!
I used to think which DOJ the enemies ware stronger than player ship, but in ketsui the enemies are 3x stronger than player ship.

Funnily enough, I consider Ketsui to be a lot easier than DOJ.

Just wait until you are trying to get to the loop

[Deca]

Ketsui is sort of a weird game for me. My first exposure to it was Death Label, which I actually loved. The bosses have some legitemately interesting and creative patterns, and I really enjoyed the aesthetic and overall visual design of everything. When I finally got to play the real game, however, my opinion started to change a bit. As much as I love the patterns, I've come to realize that I really dislike the scoring system. It forces me to play much more aggressively than I'd like to and I have a really hard time just ignoring it to focus on survival. I should mention, however, that I actually enjoy the arrange mode on the port quite a bit.

I can usually make it to the stage 4 boss, but I tend to find that my deaths are always really stupid easily avoidable things. I just seem to make more dumb mistakes playing Ketsui than other games.

So yeah, awesome design and patterns pretty much ruined for me by the scoring system. I'm sure one day I'll probably come back to it and everything will just click and be amazing, but right now I have too many other games I enjoy a lot more.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

After each death in Ketsui in Stage 2 on the last pattern of the Boss there's really a moment where I thought "There was nothing I could have done to avoid that." .

Fixed that for you, bro.

Seriously, even the last boss has not such a terrible bullet pattern.

[Drum]

Puzzle shooter/memoriser (I haven't tried getting past stage 2, please don't correct me as I really don't want to start playing this)

[MathU]

So yeah, awesome design and patterns pretty much ruined for me by the scoring system.

Pretty much this for me. I wish CAVE would design a game without a horrible scoring system for once.

[Deca]

After each death in Ketsui in Stage 2 on the last pattern of the Boss there's really a moment where I thought "There was nothing I could have done to avoid that." .

Fixed that for you, bro.

Seriously, even the last boss has not such a terrible bullet pattern.

That pattern isn't too bad if you man up and just go for it. That said, I do panic bomb it a lot.

Make a save state just for that pattern and practice it. I usually go to the opposite side from the first grenade, then go across as quickly as possible to put distance between my ship and the second grenade before it goes off.

Honestly I think the second boss of MMP is significantly harder.

Pretty much this for me. I wish CAVE would design a game without a horrible scoring system for once.

I love the scoring system in ESPgaluda 2 even though mastering it is pretty much beyond me. Mushi Futari Original scoring is...OK I guess, there isn't really a ton going so it isn't particularly intrusive in the game. Maniac scoring is actually pretty cool, I'm just no good at knowing when to cash in

But yeah...DDP chaining is just not for me. I can do it but it's just a little too much memorization and drilling of really tedious bits of the stages. Guwange chaining is actually pretty fun, unfortunately it doesn't restart your chain at the beginning of each stage :/

[burgerkingdiamond]

After each death in Ketsui in Stage 2 on the last pattern of the Boss there's really a moment where I thought "There was nothing I could have done to avoid that." .

Fixed that for you, bro.

Seriously, even the last boss has not such a terrible bullet pattern.

That pattern isn't too bad if you man up and just go for it. That said, I do panic bomb it a lot.

Make a save state just for that pattern and practice it. I usually go to the opposite side from the first grenade, then go across as quickly as possible to put distance between my ship and the second grenade before it goes off.

Honestly I think the second boss of MMP is significantly harder.

Pretty much this for me. I wish CAVE would design a game without a horrible scoring system for once.

I love the scoring system in ESPgaluda 2 even though mastering it is pretty much beyond me. Mushi Futari Original scoring is...OK I guess, there isn't really a ton going so it isn't particularly intrusive in the game. Maniac scoring is actually pretty cool, I'm just no good at knowing when to cash in

But yeah...DDP chaining is just not for me. I can do it but it's just a little too much memorization and drilling of really tedious bits of the stages. Guwange chaining is actually pretty fun, unfortunately it doesn't restart your chain at the beginning of each stage :/

I like Futari 1.5 Original the most of any CAVE scoring system because it's so simple and easy to understand. Some of these systems just boggle my mind when I'm reading FAQS. I remember ESPgII being particularly confusing.

[dunpeal2064]

So yeah, awesome design and patterns pretty much ruined for me by the scoring system.

Pretty much this for me. I wish CAVE would design a game without a horrible scoring system for once.

Pink sweets!

[emphatic]

Sure, it's kinda hard, but bad scoring system, are you fucking kidding me? Memorizer, gimme a break.