Which of the Touhou Games is the Best in the Series?

[Bananamatic]

mars matrix is trash because I have to use the bullet reflect gimmick to get any amount of points and raise my shot power

That's because you are playing teeball

[VgameT]

does hellsinker have gold cubes

e: jesus christ I wanna shoot a bullet not operate a fuckin nuclear reactor who would even PLAY this game

[Bananamatic]

several kinds of them

[Zengeku3]

It is pretty much luck-based garbage.

I get the impossible shit in EVERY run.

It's very possible to dodge everything in UFO with a good degree of consistency. Nothing as hard as, say, Scarlet Meister.

Sure. You're just gonna want some practice...

I don't think they consider it "real difficulty", they call that "memogarbage". Because if it's random it's complete bullshit, but if it's static it is memogarbage.

The memorization spellcards is just filler material there because ZUN ran out of ideas for good danmaku concepts. That includes pretty much all the stages. Random isn't bullshit in its own. Covering up all the random bullets with hands of the same color effectively blocking your line of vision however is a dirty trick that better shmups doesn't need to rely on to make things challenging.

Or how about Parasol Star Memories? Nice with something that's effectively an auto-bomb.

Finally there is LFO. One of those final attacks from hell that apparently becomes quite simple once you've played against it for about 80-100 times. I wouldn't mind that one if there was some effective way to practice it however. Unfortunately its at the end of a 2 minute long stage and an even longer boss who has three non-spells just there to waste your time and two spellcards that are completely incompetent. Never before would I complain about lack of spell practice as much as now. MoF and SA both demand much less practice because they are more about raw difficulty than a broad roster of spellcards with each their gimmick you need to master. Therefore I didn't mind it much.

To Chaos Phoenixma: If you can't react to unexpected circumstances, you are bad at shmups.
Christ, memorization isn't the only thing out there, reflexes and spatial awareness matter too. If this genre was solely about memorization, there wouldn't be as huge and vibrant of a fanbase as there is. Try to dodge on the fly sometimes instead of complaining about how some things "can't be memorized".

Iirc Chaos Phoenixma did a lot of complaining about memorization (together with Banana and me that is) back in the day at MoTK. I think his point is how you cannot expect things to behave similarly everytime. The bullets of course needs to be random but its no good if the attacks can vary from easy to ridiculously difficult just because of an RNG. In most shmups i've experienced, random stuff are always equally as difficult as any other time facing the attack. The attack will be different requiring you to read n' dodge everytime but they won't juggle between loleasy and walling.

Intriguing conversation gents, but back to why Touhou is the best shmup of all time.

Links

Yeah, those are fantastic examples of fail.

[Bananamatic]

does hellsinker have gold cubes

e: jesus christ I wanna shoot a bullet not operate a fuckin nuclear reactor who would even PLAY this game

use infernal sabbath

powerful straight shot with ADJUSTABLE SPREAD. FUCK, HOW COOL IS THAT

[Naut]

Intriguing conversation gents, but back to why Touhou is the best shmup of all time.

Several
wonderful
examples
also
this
seriously
Touhou
Also
the
fanbase

Oh look, stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Grand.

Try to dodge on the fly sometimes instead of complaining about how some things "can't be memorized".

Sightreading UFO in a nutshell

Get better

Or how about Parasol Star Memories? Nice with something that's effectively an auto-bomb.

Get better

Finally there is LFO. One of those final attacks from hell that apparently becomes quite simple once you've played against it for about 80-100 times. I wouldn't mind that one if there was some effective way to practice it however. Unfortunately its at the end of a 2 minute long stage and an even longer boss who has three non-spells just there to waste your time and two spellcards that are completely incompetent. Never before would I complain about lack of spell practice as much as now. MoF and SA both demand much less practice because they are more about raw difficulty than a broad roster of spellcards with each their gimmick you need to master. Therefore I didn't mind it much.

Get better

The bullets of course needs to be random but its no good if the attacks can vary from easy to ridiculously difficult just because of an RNG. In most shmups i've experienced, random stuff are always equally as difficult as any other time facing the attack. The attack will be different requiring you to read n' dodge everytime but they won't juggle between loleasy and walling.

Examples

[Bananamatic]

So what have we learned today:

The game is hard
But the game is actually pretty easy

What do

[Naut]

But the game is actually pretty easy

Have you 1cc'd lunatic yet, then?

[Zengeku3]

Or how about Parasol Star Memories? Nice with something that's effectively an auto-bomb.

Get better

Or maybe just use one of the two characters the spell was made for.

Finally there is LFO. One of those final attacks from hell that apparently becomes quite simple once you've played against it for about 80-100 times. I wouldn't mind that one if there was some effective way to practice it however. Unfortunately its at the end of a 2 minute long stage and an even longer boss who has three non-spells just there to waste your time and two spellcards that are completely incompetent. Never before would I complain about lack of spell practice as much as now. MoF and SA both demand much less practice because they are more about raw difficulty than a broad roster of spellcards with each their gimmick you need to master. Therefore I didn't mind it much.

Get better
[/quote]

Sure. Once someone makes an abridged version of the fight. Without all the time wasters.

The bullets of course needs to be random but its no good if the attacks can vary from easy to ridiculously difficult just because of an RNG. In most shmups i've experienced, random stuff are always equally as difficult as any other time facing the attack. The attack will be different requiring you to read n' dodge everytime but they won't juggle between loleasy and walling.

Examples[/quote]

Wasn't just talking about UFO here but Touhou in general. Orins final card can do it. Many cards in EoSD can do it. Murasa's third spell can do it (as sometimes bullets appear in the gaps you need to dodge through. very rare though and the card is easy otherwise).

If the attacks don't wall then they just have a too high variety of difficulty with Good Omen for example basically capturing itself at times while putting bullets in all the gaps at other times.

[Bananamatic]

But the game is actually pretty easy

Have you 1cc'd lunatic yet, then?

Enigma almost did yet he didn't 1cc DDP

That means that a single loop of DDP is just as hard as UFO lunatic

[Zengeku3]

But the game is actually pretty easy

Have you 1cc'd lunatic yet, then?

Enigma almost did yet he didn't 1cc DDP

That means that a single loop of DDP is just as hard as UFO lunatic

Nah, it just means that DDP is very cruel on Engima. However, DDP has quite some parts that are way harder than most stuff in UFO. In the first loop.

[Naut]

Or maybe just use one of the two characters the spell was made for.

Who would want to specifically use the two characters who make the card less fun, only to make it less fun? Marisa A has the only flaw that it has an easy time with this card.

Get better

Sure. Once someone makes an abridged version of the fight. Without all the time wasters.

Not at the spellcard. Spell practice is stupid. In general.

Wasn't just talking about UFO here but Touhou in general. Orins final card can do it. Many cards in EoSD can do it. Murasa's third spell can do it (as sometimes bullets appear in the gaps you need to dodge through. very rare though and the card is easy otherwise).

1. Misdirect more
2. EoSD is trash stop talking about it
3. Stop memorizing paths through stuff and dodge more

Enigma almost did yet he didn't 1cc DDP

That means that a single loop of DDP is just as hard as UFO lunatic

This is Enigma we're talking about here, you wanna rethink that statement?

Nah, it just means that DDP is very cruel on DDP. However, DDP has quite some parts that are way harder than most stuff in UFO. In the first loop.

Haven't you 1cc'd DDP? What about UFO?

[RNGmaster]

use infernal sabbath

powerful straight shot with ADJUSTABLE SPREAD. FUCK, HOW COOL IS THAT

That sounds cool, but when is it ever USEFUL? Hellsinker almost suffers from too much customization and open-endedness.
Christ, if yo want an adjustable spread just have one spread shot character and shotgun whenever you want to deal more damage.

And you haven't addressed his main problem with the game, which is that it's complex to the point of opacity. No amount of "Look at how cool this is!" or "THIS GAME IS SO AWESOME IT MAKES ME SPEAK IN ALLCAPS" will hide the fact that you have no effective counter-arguments.

[Bananamatic]

That sounds cool, but when is it ever USEFUL? Hellsinker almost suffers from too much customization and open-endedness.
Christ, if yo want an adjustable spread just have one spread shot character and shotgun whenever you want to deal more damage.

And you haven't addressed his main problem with the game, which is that it's complex to the point of opacity. No amount of "Look at how cool this is!" or "THIS GAME IS SO AWESOME IT MAKES ME SPEAK IN ALLCAPS" will hide the fact that you have no effective counter-arguments.

All the time. You don't have to point blank in order to shotgun.

The weapons are ALL USEFUL. And picking the proper one for the situation rewards you with a rain of items. And it feels good.

It's not a complicated game once you realize it. It just looks that way.

[Zengeku3]

Not at the spellcard. Spell practice is stupid. In general.
1. Misdirect more
2. EoSD is trash stop talking about it
3. Stop memorizing paths through stuff and dodge more

1. How do you misdirect an RNG?
2. EoSD is no more trash than UFO is. Except for shit graphics and lack of features.
3. I memorize stuff as a natural part of playing the game. UFO's stages are just easier memorized than those in Cave games. Therefore, the Cave stages are more fun. Personally, i'm all for dodging stuff. Don't get me wrong. I love UFO's stage 4 for example.

Nah, it just means that DDP is very cruel on DDP. However, DDP has quite some parts that are way harder than most stuff in UFO. In the first loop.

Haven't you 1cc'd DDP? What about UFO?[/quote]

I've 1cc'd DDP yes. I have spent time on it because i think the game is good. I didn't say 1cc'ing DDP was harder than UFO. I said that certain parts of the game is harder than most stuff in UFO. Those parts are then bombed for survival. Simple.

[Bananamatic]

UFO is reversed EoSD, each one is bullshit in a different way

also stop stalking drake

[RNGmaster]

The weapons are ALL USEFUL. And picking the proper one for the situation rewards you with a rain of items. And it feels good.

Also see Crimzon Clover, which though incomprehensible enough is a marvel of simplicity next to Hellsinker.

It's not a complicated game once you realize it. It just looks that way.

If it takes a paragraph to explain the basic functions of the items you pick up, and 10 further paragraphs to explain character selection - fucking CHARACTER SELECTION - I'd say that's fucking complicated.

How come you say IN's scoring is incomprehensible (your words: "like a chinese space shuttle manual") and you eat this shit up?

[Zengeku3]

UFO is reversed EoSD, each one is bullshit in a different way

also stop stalking drake

Although EoSD is rich on flaws, its also rich on quality stuff imo. Its got some great boss gameplay. Sakuya is a great example. Emerald Megalith and some other of Patchouli's spellcards are also pretty fun. The main issue i have with the game though is that bubbles and metal-fatigue bullets have different hitboxes than the rest of the series. That ruins a lot of the fun for me.

UFO is the same thing really. Even if there is stuff i don't like, there most certainly is much stuff I do like.
Radiant Treasure Gun, Sinking Vortex, Murasa's third non-spell and the third spellcard too (yes i said it had bs potential but its a fun card when it doesn't happen). Ichirin's second spell. Good Omen. Devil's Recitation (probably. Never quite understood how that card worked. Spell Practice would've been nice to help getting the strategy for it down)and Superhuman Hiziri.

Oh and Complete Clarification too.

Despite all that great stuff though, the stages just kill all the fun for me.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

@Zengeku: You complain about how boring the stages in UFO are, yet your favorite game is still MoF where the stages consist almost entirely of streaming. Do you just like, have selective tolerance or what?

[shadowbringer]

@TrevHead: you can check the non-Wikia wiki here

@thread
my problems with most Touhou games:
- my bad memory for stages
- my unreliable memory for bullet hitboxes (so I end using bombs when I shouldn't and run out of them)
- grazing (related with the line above; knowing the bullet and graze hitboxes would help, though there isn't so far any such information online or offline). I like my grazing optional or at least lenient enough (think Shuusou Gyoku's graze chain's timer)

EoSD:
- scoreplay requiring pixel-perfect positioning at times
- survival play having clip moments (Meiling's spiraling kunai nonspell for example). May be related with my bullet hitbox memory (or anything which involves the words "me" and "memory" together)

MoF:
- faith counter dropping too fast if you didn't memorize the stage beforehand (I like to freestyle and to think I still can have an acceptable score, but here I feel penalized ). Just watching the faith meter fall too much (think 3 seconds or 2) is demotivating for the current run.
- faith counter taking such a severe blow if you die (1/3 of the faith points which are over the base faith counter)

SA:
- having to hug the large fairies which shoot DNA-like patterns for grazing them. Before they shoot them so that you're trapped within the pattern and can be hit by other enemies/falling rocks while you're grazing (stand still). Keeping these fairies in mind as well as their timing, and forcing me to actually executing the hugging manages to make the game such a chore so early (refer to the above mentioned dislike for grazing and unreliable memory), it's way easier for me to learn how to trigger X-Medal modes in RFJ/RF2, or to hit 270 chain (with A-L) in DDP, than to stand SA's stage 1 (which is enough to kill my motivation to play the remainder of the game.. since I apparently can't ignore or accept missed scoring opportunities as well as many people can)
- trying to do well (haven't read about graze abusing Parsee not being optimal on any modes except Lunatic, though) on the rest of the game

UFO:
- feels clip-happier than EoSD (think PoFV vs Reimu with high EX-level attacks -- the fast-spreading rings). Though I really dunno (and want to believe) if playing on a 15" monitor is part of the problem. Maybe I also am too afraid of the bullet hitboxes and keep overestimating them.
- UFO routes, just for the memorization issue (a minor problem, which I've actively avoided by avoiding playing UFO since keeping said route in mind isn't easy and as distracting as when first trying to get gold bars from Strikers' 1945 II at max value -- I guess only I know how much I wanted that week to end, argh.. sorry for those who like the game more than I do, and I don't dislike it as much nowadays.)
- having to graze to raise point item value (like I mentioned at the top of this post, this involves memorization for optimal grazing, enough grasp of the graze and bullet hitboxes and it's easy to mess up. Maybe those who enjoy grazing are more tolerant to dying than I am (though I'm way more tolerant to dying in Garegga, since then I don't feel like I've wasted bombs in most cases, and in ESP Ra De, since then I don't feel that this death can't be compensated), so they don't mind it if/when this happens)

playing GFW without ice is arbitrary, like trying to play Giga Wing without the reflect barrier (or Ikaruga without changing polarity, or without shooting), or trying to do things like no-focus, no-vertical, no-moving, or even no-bomb/no-miss. Imho, part of the fun of playing GFW (though ignoring optimal scoreplay for now) is exactly using the bullet freeze mechanic (through the charges and bombs as you feel more appropriate -- this system feels freestyling-friendly, mind you) to cover large areas of the screen.
DDP first loop is easy (enough resources are given), actually, not easy to obtain at first if you're trying to survive and score, though. (though freestyling and scoring go well, to an extent. Then, they turn against you. Also, Max Bombs Bonus helps me -- or you, Phoenixma, dunno -- get back to our greedy selves, so this may be getting on your way..)

[Treasurance]

Also see Crimzon Clover, which though incomprehensible enough is a marvel of simplicity next to Hellsinker.

CC was actually TOO simple and got boring fast

If it takes a paragraph to explain the basic functions of the items you pick up, and 10 further paragraphs to explain character selection - fucking CHARACTER SELECTION - I'd say that's fucking complicated.

How come you say IN's scoring is incomprehensible (your words: "like a chinese space shuttle manual") and you eat this shit up?

SHUT THE FUCK UP AND 1CC TO SEGMENT 5

[Zengeku3]

@Zengeku: You complain about how boring the stages in UFO are, yet your favorite game is still MoF where the stages consist almost entirely of streaming. Do you just like, have selective tolerance or what?

For one thing. The stages are a lot prettier in MoF. And the music is a hell of a lot better in my opinion. Those things together help the experience a bit. In addition, the bosses doesn't require anywhere near the same level of practice. And MoF is my favorite game all the back from when I started out with shmups in 2008.

I've played UFO's stages a lot more than I have Mof's because UFO's bosses are more demanding but the stage is usually not the problem at all. And that's what's irritating me. I master the stage fast enough and which point it just becomes boring. The bosses however, will require a great deal more work for me to gain the same degree of mastery against as I have with pretty much any other Touhou boss.

I may make it sound like I just want things easy, however that is not the case. I want my danmaku difficult. But I want the difficulty in both the stage and the boss so neither becomes a drag.

[Barrakketh]

@TrevHead: you can check the non-Wikia wiki here

@thread
my problems with most Touhou games:
- my bad memory for stages

I find the music helps in most games...any troublesome parts I can easily recall by what part of the BGM is playing. I find it easier to do so than by memorizing the appearance of the stage in games like DDP (I focus more on the bullets than the background).

- my unreliable memory for bullet hitboxes (so I end using bombs when I shouldn't and run out of them)

The so-called Metal Fatigue bullets and the bubble bullets have different hitboxes than the games that were released afterward.

faith counter dropping too fast if you didn't memorize the stage beforehand

The faith counter drops at a slower rate when there's an enemy on the screen. About 600 points/sec instead of approximately 10,000 points/sec. Not collecting all the items immediately is obviously a good practice to keep the chain going.

Maybe I also am too afraid of the bullet hitboxes and keep overestimating them.

I frequently say this to people who complain about the games feeling clippy, but it's always appropriate: dodge the bullets, not their hitbox (exception: bubble bullets). If the bullet doesn't actually touch your hitbox, you won't die.

enough grasp of the graze and bullet hitboxes

It's pretty simple. Generally speaking, your graze hitbox is more or less as large as your sprite, rectangular in shape. If you can see a bullet pass through your sprite that will register as a graze.

[RNGmaster]

SHUT THE FUCK UP AND 1CC TO SEGMENT 5

"YOU JUST DON'T LIKE IT BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED LONG ENOUGH"

Again, seen that exact argument used for FFXIII. Wasted lots of time on that game hoping for it to get good.

Oh, and if you're going to keep calling scoring and survival in CC "simple" I want to see you beat KTR's 1.2 chou run.

[ncp]

Mountain of Faith, by far.

Scoring system is a lot simpler and more fun, the patterns are fantastic, the music and backgrounds are the best of the series.

Would be UFO, but the scoring system is ridiculous. (UFO being my favorite for non-scoring play)

[TrevHead (TVR)]

@TrevHead: you can check the non-Wikia wiki here

@thread
my problems with most Touhou games:
- my bad memory for stages

I find the music helps in most games...any troublesome parts I can easily recall by what part of the BGM is playing. I find it easier to do so than by memorizing the appearance of the stage in games like DDP (I focus more on the bullets than the background).

Yea thats my problem aswell, its so hard to memorise the stages when the only sprite ZUN uses are fucking fairies which to a touhou noob like me all look the same so it makes memorising the stages that much harder, it wouldnt be so bad if just one or two stages were like this but the whole game Now I understand why ZUN keeps his stages so short, because if they were any longer itll be a knightmare.

Its a shame ZUN is so addicted to fairies because if he used more intresting and easily recgnisable sprites his games would be so much more enjoyable as I quite like IN's scoring system especially the Human Yukia bar and the Point of Collection. It would be great if someone hacked the games and swopped the sprites.

[Barrakketh]

Now I understand why ZUN keeps his stages so short, because if they were any longer itll be a knightmare.

?

Its a shame ZUN is so addicted to fairies because if he used more intresting and easily recgnisable sprites his games would be so much more enjoyable as I quite like IN's scoring system especially the Human Yukia bar and the Point of Collection. It would be great if someone hacked the games and swopped the sprites.

What would you propose that he add as cannon fodder enemies that fits the setting?

[ptoing]

He could use Youkai kinda enemies? Monster type things. Better than goddamn faeries.

[Blackbird]

What would you propose that he add as cannon fodder enemies that fits the setting?

Any number of youkai or horror type enemies (cute-sified, of course) would work... his setting is actually a lot more flexible than you might think.

Check out Nurarihyon no Mago for various examples of interesting youkai characters.

Although, it could be that he has to keep the aesthetic of his game distinct from Cave's competitor, Death Smiles.

[Barrakketh]

What would you propose that he add as cannon fodder enemies that fits the setting?

Any number of youkai or horror type enemies (cute-sified, of course) would work... his setting is actually a lot more flexible than you might think.

There are tons of youkai in the games, and they take the form of almost all of the bosses. Exceptions include Cirno (fairy), Suwako and Kanako (gods), Sakuya/Reimu/Marisa/Sanae (humans).

Basically, any youkai that isn't involved with whatever incident the heroines are out to investigate are smart enough to stay the hell away from them. Those that are involved appear as the (mid-)bosses. The fairies "work" because they are simple-minded manifestations of nature who quickly regenerate and don't fear death (to be more accurate, their concept of death is different from mortals). They are also everywhere in Gensokyo.

So while ZUN has a great number of youkai to use as enemies, you'd have to come up with a good reason why they would more-or-less willingly become something the heroines are going to mow down after being attacked. They aren't really used as generic characters in the series.