Mactabilis released!

[Drum]

Nothing wrong with healthbars. Necessarily. I have not played this game so cannot comment on its application.

[TMR]

A fix that might actually work and is very easy to implement is to give the player a short time of invincibility after the energy bar is fully depleted. After that, anything is deadly.

i quite liked the variation that Soldner X uses, if the health bar drops below a certain level the Berzerker mode kicks in so the ship jitters like it's had too much caffeine and a more urgent soundtrack plays; power the health back up and everything calms down again. i'd much rather see a game that's been properly tuned so a health bar isn't necessary in the first place, but this does at least paper over the cracks quite well.

Nothing wrong with healthbars. Necessarily. I have not played this game so cannot comment on its application.

i've only had one very short go so far, i might find some free time later.

[Ebbo]

Finally gave the demo a try since all those comments made it just irresistable. And quite frankly every comment - no matter how cruel - speaks the truth.

Easily the most annoying "feature" (that hasn't been mentioned yet, I think) was the pixelated blur effect when the player ship took damage accompanied with a tender WWRRR sound effect. And since there is no hitstun after you take hit you can easily just sandwich yourself between asteroids and very-hard-to-see-explosions - all this while pixelated vision and sloppy hitboxes make accurate dodging nigh impossible. Also let's not forget WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

What baffles me most is obviously that infamous trailer of yours. You claim to be this small indie group who can't make triple A titles just like that (which I can understand perfectly), "please have mercy on us!"... And yet you state that shoot'em up genre is "all the same, shallow, frustrating and redundant" and how "it's time for the genre to evolve". That's insulting and shows some serious ignorance towards the genre.

Seriously, what's the last shmup you've played? This is an honest question, since anyone who has paid any attention to the genre for the past few years knows that shmups are anything but all the same. Sure, they're not mainstream but as Udder said, that's okay. I don't personally believe making shooter "mainstream" necessarily leads it into being poorly designed game but unfortunately Mactabilis is just that.
Shallow, frustrating and redundant.

Just one more thing:

Oh, and if you don't like the art, it's all easily moddable.

Seriously?

[Udderdude]

I don't personally believe making shooter "mainstream" necessarily leads it into being poorly designed game but unfortunately Mactabilis is just that.
Shallow, frustrating and redundant.

I should have clarified myself more there, and said that the types of game design which appear to your average mainstream gamer these days would ruin what makes shmups work in the first place.

Oh, and if you don't like the art, it's all easily moddable.

So replacing the crap art will somehow make all the rest of the game's visual problems (overuse of blur, pixelation effect, bloom) dissapear?

[ItBurn]

I'm just saying that the game art is moddable. Lots of people like to edit textures. Look at all the minecraft texture packs. It's easy to do and really makes a difference. In the future, we might also release a level editor if fans ask for it.

The blur is very important. Objects that can't be collided with are blurred, so that it's clear.

Pixelation clearly shows that you're taking damage and is required because few players are used to the plane switching mechanic and this really sinks it in.

Not sure what you mean by bloom, but the blending of colors is one of the awesome things about the game...

[doctorx0079]

@ ItBurn: This is how you do it.

@ Alec44: If you want to make good shmups, reading this board is a really good idea. But of course it's your choice. It is quite possible to make good shmups without reading this board.

I'm serious, go read that thread and then come back here. Fast Striker may not be perfect, but the guys who made it understand shmups and what makes them good. They also had serious shmuppers test their game. And is your company smaller than NG:DEV? Which is mostly just Timm and Rene Hellwig. Really?

[Udderdude]

I'm just saying that the game art is moddable. Lots of people like to edit textures. Look at all the minecraft texture packs. It's easy to do and really makes a difference. In the future, we might also release a level editor if fans ask for it.

Minecraft and shmups are nothing alike, it's not a sandbox game where you can do whatever you'd like. Do you really think someone's going to go through the effort of making new art for your game? If anyone does, I hope you're paying them. :P

The blur is very important. Objects that can't be collided with are blurred, so that it's clear.

Everything looks blurry, not just the background depth layer.

Pixelation clearly shows that you're taking damage and is required because few players are used to the plane switching mechanic and this really sinks it in.

The problem is that once you're getting hit, it's hard to stop getting hit since 1. There's no hit stun period, and 2. THE ENTIRE SCREEN HAS TURNED INTO A PIXELATED MESS AND YOU CAN'T FUCKING SEE ANYTHING ANYMORE.

Not sure what you mean by bloom, but the blending of colors is one of the awesome things about the game...

It makes everything into a runny mess, so no.

[doctorx0079]

ItBurn, please respond to mine too. kthxbai

[ItBurn]

Fast Striker looks like a fun game, after watching a few trailers tho, it was like I had seen this game a hundred times before. I do believe that Mactabilis looks more fun and that it'll appeal to a lot more people while still giving hardcore fans a challenge.

I'm not saying you guys have bad taste or anything

[Blackbird]

Also, this isn't a triple A title. This is a very small indie company and the game is just 10 bucks.

Yotsubane made Crimzon Clover pretty much by himself. The creator of Cave Story made that game by himself. I don't expect an indie game to be as refined as a AAA title, but being small is no excuse for poor execution.

Oh, and if you don't like the art, it's all easily moddable.

Did you -really- just concede that it was ok for your game to have poor graphics because the players can simply make better graphics for your game? Really?

[ItBurn]

@Blackbird ... NO

[mjclark]

Fast Striker looks like a fun game, after watching a few trailers tho, it was like I had seen this game a hundred times before.

Maybe that's because Fast Striker is well made, well executed, has good scoring mechanics and game play and has some design elements in common with older well crafted shmups but with enough innovation to make it worth taking seriously in it's own right.
Or did you just watch the same trailer 100 times?
You just don't understand lol

This is a lively and intelligent forum dedicated to the shmup genre and filled with people who love shmups. I'm sure a child of six could tell you that suggesting that genre is stale, boring and redundant is not a good starting point here and might prejudice the reception of your subsequent statements and the game you're promoting.
Mactabilis does look fun, colourful and refreshing but trying to present it as some kind of innovative breakthrough is a bad idea, especially to people who have played literally hundreds of other games of a similar kind. Let your game speak for itself!

[TMR]

Okay, i've had a proper couple of goes and Udderdude's right about the pixelation effect, it gets in the way royally without disabling the collisions whilst the display rights itself. i'd also go as far as saying the distinction between active and inactive layer isn't defined enough, certainly not in the asteroid stage. Also, the weapon power-ups cycling between types is a bugger when they're being concealed by pyrotechnics, especially since they get dragged in when close to the ship - i've ended up switching weapons without ever having seen the damned icon as it presumably snuck up behind me. i've also been blown to crap by large lasers i didn't see because they weren't distinct enough...

On the cosmetic front, a way to turn off the cutscenes (and preferably the in-game dialogue) is really needed - not having to load all that extra detail might make things more manageable on a slow machine like mine is one reason, it just getting in the way of kicking the crap out of enemies is another. Being able to configure joypad buttons would be a Good Thing as well, i'm using a Playstation Dual Shock pad with a converter and would much rather have the layer switch mapped to a left shoulder button for example but that's not going to work for everyone. i took one look at the shop screenshots and stuck to playing in arcade mode so can't comment about that.

i don't have much disposable income right now, so seven quid is painfully steep...

[ItBurn]

I totally understand mjclark, but I never thought it would have such a big impact on you guys :p

@TMR
It takes a little time to get used to the game, that's normal.

You can actually change the controls in the options menu.

You can also skip every "story" screen. If you have performance issues, just lower the resolution a bit in the options.

[drei :3]

Stats are displayed right on the character ship actually, but only appear when they're changing.

I see (that was also in the trailer, derp >_<). Anyway, it's better to have that permanently displayed. A bit of redundancy isn't bad either. For example, I've seen a very busy vertically-oriented shmup that displays boss energy at both top and bottom, and you are thankful for that when you play it.

I don't like gradient-heavy artwork in general, and the less gradient you use for enemies, the clearer it gets what is in focus and what is not. I'd rather use different colour palettes for each layer though. Again, this is not either/or, redundancy helps with visibility issues. You could also have a thick border around objects of the collision layer with 3 possible colours: marking same layer as player 1, same layer as player 2, same layer both players are in. These borders could be displayed all the time around everything, or they could flash when the layer is changed, or they could be restricted to projectiles.

If blur is used to show what can't collide with you, how does that work in 2-player mode?

[ItBurn]

No blur in two player. Enemies and bullets in the background are orange and the foreground ones are red.

[TMR]

@TMR
It takes a little time to get used to the game, that's normal.

No, we're talking about issues that won't go away with familiarity; the pixelation problems Udderdude mentioned will remain and it'll still be possible to get stuck in a loop where the next hit is concealed by the effect of the previous one. The visibility issues i mentioned similarly remain when players are used to what's going on; smoke or explosion effects shouldn't conceal other, more important elements.

You can also skip every "story" screen.

Yes i know, but i'd rather they weren't even loaded in the first place; they don't add any value to the game, take time to load and get in the way of the far more important business of blowing the crap out of stuff.

[ItBurn]

Well it's not like we shipped this without testing it :p

We came up with how the game is with lots of playtesting.

Loading a skipping the story parts takes like 500 milliseconds... I put a lot of effort into making sure that everything in the game loaded almost instantly

[drei :3]

No blur in two player. Enemies and bullets in the background are orange and the foreground ones are red.

That's an elegant adaptation of your innovative concept to co-op mode. Though I'd rather use white with blue outline and black with red outline.

[ItBurn]

We're actually thinking about letting players customize the colors because we got some feedback from colorblind people at PAX.

[TMR]

Well it's not like we shipped this without testing it :p

We came up with how the game is with lots of playtesting.

So how did these rather severe issues with visibility slip past during that testing process? Who was doing the playtesting, was there anyone with a reasonable grounding in shoot 'em ups in either your team or the external testing group? If so, did they not at least mention something that most of the folks here noticed straight out of the box?

The chances are that, if you were to fix the problems highlighted by various folks here, the health bar could be reduced to a three hits and you're dead system for all comers. i'm at best an average player compared to some of the folks here but because i play by instinct rather than learning patterns, the hardcore mode will be impossible since i simply won't be able to see some of the bullets to dodge them.

Loading a skipping the story parts takes like 500 milliseconds... I put a lot of effort into making sure that everything in the game loaded almost instantly

And on my machine, a battered 2GHz Athlon with half a gig of RAM and another half gig on the GeForce 6, the load times are long enough that i can KVM switch to a second machine and play half a level of another game whilst yours is loading.

[eebrozgi]

Seriously, what's the last shmup you've played?

I'm also quite interested to hear about this.

[Udderdude]

Loading a skipping the story parts takes like 500 milliseconds... I put a lot of effort into making sure that everything in the game loaded almost instantly :P

Yes, like having zillions of uncompressed TIF files in the 1 MB+ range, and not preloading any data ..

[ItBurn]

Last shmup I played, which isn't the most recent, was Ikaruga. Finally got a gamecube copy, bought a gamecube controller and played it on my wii.

Edit, actually, I tried Razor2 and Söldner-X. Which both weren't fun.

@Udderdude
Some data is preloaded, some data is loaded when a level needs it. It's pretty optimized to save ram and be fast. I haven't played a lot of games that start and switch levels as fast as Mactabilis on my computer.

You guys aren't exactly a significant portion of the population But I figured what I might do. I could add a "Classic" game mode and add/modify all the features you guys talked about. That way you could have your classic gameplay and I wouldn't have to change the finely tuned other modes. I'll look into it, but you know, for now, our future depends on the success of the game.

[ItBurn]

@TMR
Perhaps you need more RAM or something. I tested the game on worse machines and it never took more than like 5 seconds to load a level. The game runs great on a T60 thinkpad... Not exactly a finely tuned gaming machine.

[TMR]

You guys aren't exactly a significant portion of the population But I figured what I might do. I could add a "Classic" game mode and add/modify all the features you guys talked about. That way you could have your classic gameplay and I wouldn't have to change the finely tuned other modes. I'll look into it, but you know, for now, our future depends on the success of the game.

In other words your motivation isn't really to produce the best possible game, it's about money... fair enough i suppose, i'd say feel free to ignore me but you're already doing that and i'll leave you to it.

@TMR
Perhaps you need more RAM or something.

Upgrading a machine that usually doesn't struggle to run what i consider to be a flawed and fairly derivative game that, apparently, wasn't developed with shoot 'em up fans in mind in the first place... erm, no ta.

[ItBurn]

I did produce the best game possible, but it's just normal for some people to disagree.

This is about money in the way that I can't continue making games if I have no money! :p

It's always been the plan to develop what supplemental features fans actually want after release.

[drei :3]

How could the Blazing Bit guys quickly make a mode that addresses the biggest issues raised here?

Redrawing everything takes too long, so aside from HUD and the player's ship this would just be fiddling with contrast: Mute the contrast in the non-interactive background layer, drop the focus blur even in 1-player and put the stuff in the 2 interactive layers through 2 different filters (more different than red/orange).

Have a TRANSPARENT health system. One way to do it: You can take 3 hits, getting hit is not followed by disfiguring the playfield, but by a short period of invincibility during which the player can move through everything. Make it crystal clear to the player how much energy is left and how long the invincibility period is.

Another possible way to do a health system: You have a shield, a circle around the ship, that takes 1 hit and regenerates with time. Getting hit with shield is followed by a short period of invincibility during which the player can move through everything. After that, getting hit without fully regenerated shield kills you. You could still have enemy attacks with different strengths under that system, because you could make regeneration take different amounts of time. You must clearly show the player how long the invincibility period lasts (say the music stops and a counter goes 3-2-1), and how long it takes to regenerate the shield — eg. you could have a big segmented bar for that, with the number of segments depending on the attack that hit you, when it's full you hear a jingle and the circle around the ship reappears.

Drop shop, drop levels with different mechanics, replace the story with this: "Once upon a time, you had to blow shit up."

[eebrozgi]

You guys aren't exactly a significant portion of the population

Oh... Oh wow. There comes the trailer intro attitude again.

Well, that surely explains your complete ignoring of various points presented here. The shallow opinions of these insignificant shmup forum members surely shouldn't be taken to any deep consideration for your shmup.

[Udderdude]

We're out of the picture now, man. The genre has evolved and moved on without us. A bright, glorious future of bloom and HD sprites that look like "My first photoshop" in action.

I mean, hell, it's no Chacker: The Angry Mockingbird. But it's something, alright.