Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

[Hair]

My sarcastic comment only implies that someone who dislikes Touhou is not proof in and of itself that the people that like it are "wrong" (and the reverse is of course true as well). I did not *EVER* say that the people that dislike it are wrong either, whether the game is popular or not.

Can you at least keep your story straight? First you were letting people know that experienced players like the games (who suggested they didn't?), now somehow you've switched to telling everyone that those players aren't wrong for liking the game (where did this come from)? Why the hell did you bring up quality at the start of the sentence if you weren't even going to be talking about it? Was that post where you suggested that Touhou must be high quality because a lot of games have been influenced by it talking about something else too?

I gotta get out of here, you're killing my brain. Between this and those other gems of yours like claiming Touhou invented attacking with magic and that games cannot be objectively good or bad (well hey I guess Superman 64 is just as good as Doom then because IT'S ART), oh man, I can't take it.

No more quoting me out of context and failing at the English language? Damn.

Oh, and if you think any videogame can be objectively better than another, I think you should try learning the definitions of those crucial words. How "good" a game is cannot be measured by objective criteria. How fun a game is depends on the person playing it. Judging how good a game is requires a human measuring stick, and that is the opposite of objective. Google it.

[Zengeku3]

(but who actually plays Easy)

Quite a lot of people unfortunately if the recent survey was any indication. It was like 20-25% Easy clears and 50% Normal clears.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

True, most my fave STGs...

I think this pretty much nails it.

I made a fuck up of that first paragraph due to been half asleep, luckly I still get the point across.

I don't remember a "you must hate Touhou" box that I had to check in order to register.

You are very much welcome here, forums are a bore when everybody agrees with each other and im quite sure everyone in this thread is thankfull for you sticking to your guns

[Despatche]

but who actually plays Easy

Easy's a pretty popular scoring category, and great for when you're first starting a given game.

(I assume this was sarcastic anyway)

[tinotormed]

Easy's a pretty popular scoring category, and great for when you're first starting a given game.

Well, I already did finish 3 Touhou games on this difficulty (7, 8, and 10). Besides, I did finish th08 already for the first time on Normal, with 0 lives and bombs left.

[chempop]

I've never played a touhou game... So, are they any good?

[Zengeku3]

I've never played a touhou game... So, are they any good?

That is of course a question of opinions. I've played them for a long time and they are the reason i got into shmups in the first place. There is of course a reason i didn't just settle with Touhou instead of playing DDP, Ketsui and the like however. The shmups are mostly not very difficult so I started seeking new challenges and got into shmups.

Pros:

-Pretty bullet patterns that uses a broad variety of colors. Very unlike most other shmups and one of the elements that attracted me to them to in the first place.
- Lots of cute characters. Not really something that matters from a shmupping perspective but its worth mentioning.
- Pretty good music. - Well, not everyone will like this kind of music. Its all a matter of taste. Personally i don't like the OST of Daifukkatsu BL. Some people don't like Touhou music. There isn't much to be said here other than, go give it a listen.
- Fun bosses. The main attraction of these games are the bosses. They have pretty creative bullet patterns and sometimes that can get quite difficult. At least by my standards.

Cons:

- Lame scoring systems. Just my opinion but way too often, the scoring system is about milking boss patterns for graze and bombing should never have a place in a good score run imo. Way too often, bombs are a fundemental part of scoring in Touhou.
- Lame stages. The stages are usually just an easily memorized path that once memorized won't threaten you again. They are dragged out and slow paced. They are in fact, outright boring. There is none of that relentless onslaught of enemies going on like there is in a Cave game for example. Which is said because it makes practicing the bosses at the end of the stages very boring.

[BPzeBanshee]

I've never played a touhou game... So, are they any good?

Sure!

Well, Kiwami Shooting was anyway.

[gs68]

Way too often, bombs are a fundemental part of scoring in Touhou.

Tell Yagawa I said hi.

[Zengeku3]

Way too often, bombs are a fundemental part of scoring in Touhou.

Tell Yagawa I said hi.

Sure. What/Who is Yagawa?

Admittingly i do not know too much about shmups outside the realms of Touhou and Cave (and only select few by Cave). Iirc, Ketsui and DDP both punishes bombs with regards to score.

[Sapz]

Yagawa is the dude who made everyone's favourite Battle Garegga, among others like Batrider, Bakraid, Ibara, Pink Sweets and MMP.

[mjclark]

What/Who is Yagawa?

See here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 24&start=0
Iirc Yagawa discovered X-rays, invented manpowered flight, was the first to propose that the earth orbits the sun and instigated the European Industrial Revolution of the 18th century. He lives in Switzerland in a house made entirely of chocolate and sends coded messages to us all through the television or, more recently, electric kettles.

[gs68]

Yagawa is the dude who made everyone's favourite Battle Garegga, among others like Batrider, Bakraid, Ibara, Pink Sweets and MMP.

And for those who don't know: His games tend to encourage bombing for score. For example, in Garegga, Batrider, and Bakraid, bombing scenery (bombing, NOT using your main weapon) can uncover items such as medals (and at max medal value, that's a good thing, to put it modestly).

[Sumez]

Just saw some more of the games, and the art is really terrible. Well, the big characters are. Relatively, that is. He's a decent artist, but nothing above mediocre amateur level, so I don't get why he doesn't get a talented friend to fix them up. The ingame graphics work fine, but are also extremely boring. Repetition of the same uninspired tiny girl graphics much? Again, why not get someone talented to do it? With all the obvious fandom surrounding the series, there's sure to be lots of talent available for free.

It's not really valid criticism, since it has nothing to do with the games themselves, and they might still be good games, but XUN seems to always get praise for "making everything himself". And while he does a fine job at the music, I think the complete lack of interesting art in the games makes said praise pretty pointless. I think he would deserve more praise by expanding a bit and adding people to the team for a more wholesome and varied experience.

[CptRansom]

Yagawa is the dude who made everyone's favourite Battle Garegga, among others like Batrider, Bakraid, Ibara, Pink Sweets and MMP.

Touhou is better than all of those.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Boss rush games can be pretty sweet as Contra: Shattered Soldier proves. Of course the likes of Alien Soldier and Shattered Soldier have actual stage design and are cinematic rather than abstract in style, but if you don't have what it takes to pull it off, you can still try to do something awesome with what little you've got. Tetris doesn't have stage design and its graphics are extremely repetitive, so what? Among the very few games with small hitboxes I find entertaining, Warning Forever is the one I'm most likely to pick up and play, so it must be doing something games with more accomplished production values don't do for me. I don't think every shooter even needs traditional stage design. What I like about early Namco is the AI and subtle rank touches, not stage design in terms of furniture placement and pre-scripted events.
I can't tell if Touhou is anywhere near quality of Compile, early Namco or even Warning Forever since I only played EoSD briefly and walked away for the very same reasons I walk away from most bullet hell games, but I'm fine with boss rush as such.

It's not really valid criticism, since it has nothing to do with the games themselves, and they might still be good games, but XUN seems to always get praise for "making everything himself". And while he does a fine job at the music, I think the complete lack of interesting art in the games makes said praise pretty pointless. I think he would deserve more praise by expanding a bit and adding people to the team for a more wholesome and varied experience.

I haven't heard anybody PRAISING him for making everything himself. It's more of an explanation why the games have somewhat amateurish execution.
Some people just don't like teamworking. If your day job requires something you don't like from you, it's the last thing you want to do as a hobby. It doesn't necessarily make for better results (director's cuts of films are almost universally worse than producer's cuts), but I don't find it puzzling at all.

[Zengeku3]

Yagawa is the dude who made everyone's favourite Battle Garegga, among others like Batrider, Bakraid, Ibara, Pink Sweets and MMP.

No wonder i didn't know about him then.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

And only one of those has good gameplay.

[mjclark]

Yagawa is the dude who made everyone's favourite Battle Garegga, among others like Batrider, Bakraid, Ibara, Pink Sweets and MMP.

And Recca which is the godfather of them all- but that's worth another thread all together

[Zengeku3]

And only one of those has good gameplay.

Let me guess. MMP?

[Bananamatic]

- Lame scoring systems. Just my opinion but way too often, the scoring system is about milking boss patterns for graze and bombing should never have a place in a good score run imo. Way too often, bombs are a fundemental part of scoring in Touhou.

Touhou's scoring is about as useful as the pope's dick because it does NOTHING. You either play without scoring and the extends are given to you anyways or score by milking the living fuck out of everything

there is not a single reward for scoring well
hell, you could just erase any sort of scoring from the games and no one would notice

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Oh come on, EoSD and SA have awesome scoring systems. MoF to a slightly lesser extent. I just can't do well on any of those, and the scoring system in all the other games in the series outside of maybe Mystic Square also suck.

[Barrakketh]

I haven't heard anybody PRAISING him for making everything himself. It's more of an explanation why the games have somewhat amateurish execution.

It's a combination of the fact that he works alone (limited manpower) and the fact that he releases a game every year.

Touhou's scoring is about as useful as the pope's dick because it does NOTHING. You either play without scoring and the extends are given to you anyways or score by milking the living fuck out of everything

there is not a single reward for scoring well

Bragging rights/satisfaction.

I highly doubt your average player here who bothers submitting scores/replays thinks to their self, "You know what, I like to score and keep scoring higher for the extends. Even though I can easily surpass the score needed for the maximum extends allowed by the system, technically making what I'm doing completely pointless."

You either score for the e-peen, the sense of satisfaction you get when you improve upon your older hi-score (a sign that you're improving), or both. About the only exceptions are the players who just need the extends to 1-ALL or 2-ALL the game, at which point they'll stop playing the game because they got their 1cc.

[moozooh]

Actually EoSD's and PCB's scoring systems (especially the latter) would likely make Yagawa proud. They take the mechanics he introduced and add a lot of depth to them, allowing new strategies to be born all the time. Surely there is a reason GFA2-ISO has played these games for score for over 6 years each.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

SA would too, you know with all the bombing and suiciding for graze.

[moozooh]

Actually SA has a lot less depth compared to those. Only Lunatic comes close, since dying can be beneficial there, and it opens up some space for variation. On all other modes you have to no-miss the game for optimal scoring, which is nothing like Yagawa games already, and the only "strategy" there is finding what gives you more graze on the way.

UFO is not as rigid on lower difficulty levels (as new strategies keep coming up) but requires much more balls on the higher ones. It's a very demanding game, actually. Definitely not for newcomers or casual players.

[Sapz]

Touhou's scoring is about as useful as the pope's dick because it does NOTHING. You either play without scoring and the extends are given to you anyways or score by milking the living fuck out of everything

there is not a single reward for scoring well
hell, you could just erase any sort of scoring from the games and no one would notice

2/10 for effort, I suppose.

The point of scoring is to compete with other people. Extends are just extra motivation to score if you're not able to 1cc consistently yet (and/or for extra points in the endgame bonus, if you're playing for score). By your logic, everyone should give up chaining in DOJBL roundabout the second midboss, and stop scoring in Galuda II after... well, on the first goddamn stage, if the guy's really good.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Even on Hard?

Wouldn't suiciding on Parsee's nonspells, Orin's midbosses, ghost wheels, and maybe a few other spots still be profitable? plus you can die once, twice, maybe three times(not sure) and still finish with max lives.

[moozooh]

Even on Hard?

Even on Hard. Dying resets your base point item value to the default, and grazing alone can't make up for that. Check the world records.

On Lunatic the base point item value is twice higher, and there are more bullets to bombgraze as well.

[Zengeku3]

- Lame scoring systems. Just my opinion but way too often, the scoring system is about milking boss patterns for graze and bombing should never have a place in a good score run imo. Way too often, bombs are a fundemental part of scoring in Touhou.

Touhou's scoring is about as useful as the pope's dick because it does NOTHING. You either play without scoring and the extends are given to you anyways or score by milking the living fuck out of everything

there is not a single reward for scoring well
hell, you could just erase any sort of scoring from the games and no one would notice

I admit to Touhou scoring not being a very rewarding affair in many cases since I can only mention two games that centers exclusively around dodging stuff. MoF which heavily penalizes dying and MS which penalizes bombing.

SA is a very silly affair because of how its score system is 100% about bombing. UFO's system i probably wouldn't mind if the stages actually had some meat but it hasn't so that ain't too fantastic either... Ain't bothering with pre-IN stuff. Too old and easy.

Any DoDonPachi game i can understand. Ketsui i can understand. The ESP. games i can understand. Having to dodge stuff and score at the same time. Without spamming bombs or suiciding to control rank/gain more bombs whatever. What a concept...