RNGmaster wrote:
- 40% of stalls at Comiket (which BTW is a huge fucking event) are TH doujins or TH related. That's a monopoly.
- an entire board of 4chan (/jp/) is exclusively TH posts
-- TH has its own doujin convention, which is an accomplishment that no other huge fandom can claim.
- even in the West, anyone who regularly trolls Something Awful/4chan/etc. will inevitably be exposed.
5% of Comiket or so. (2.4k or so groups, of ~40k)
General weaboo board, touhou is just that well known amonst them.
No it not remotely unique. It is very big though.
True (i'd assume), ran accross it all over 4chan when I still went there.
Reaper gI wrote:
5% of Comiket or so. (2.4k or so groups, of ~40k)
General weaboo board, touhou is just that well known amonst them.
No it not remotely unique. It is very big though. (derp, of course I should have known)
True (i'd assume), ran accross it all over 4chan when I still went there.
Huh, don't know where I heard the 40% statistic. Maybe it's going by merchandise sold or some other metric, rather than # of groups. Thanks for the corrections!
Just realised that I find fantasy themes more becoming of bullet hell than usual military antics (the first DonPachi nailed it alright, but it wasn't fully fledged bullet hell). I mean, since it doesn't feel like a shmup anymore, why would it struggle to look like one? Unless it adds something goofy to the mix, like Dangun Feveron does, bullet hell and martial machinery don't mix with each other in my book. What helped me to put my finger on it was the feeling of discomfort I had watching this today. Pop tunes from the eighties coupled with artwork more typical of recent times seem odd in a wrong way to me, just like tanks, cannons and confetti where bullets should be (yes, Baraduke introduced such projectiles in 1985, but they weren't being spat out by firearms in that game). Granted, there's more wrong with presentation of DDP, its sequels and Ketsui than just the aforementioned disharmony of themes, but this has more to do with production values of arcade games generally going south around that time. Even Dragon Blaze, stunning as it looks, graphically isn't quite in the same league as Mahou Daisakusen.
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Eh, personally I don't have any beef with DDP's art direction. Giant lasers seem pretty appropriate in a sci-fi setting to me. One of the less offensive Cave projects in this regard, anyway =D.
Regarding the video you posted, I think the more fundamental problem there is that 90% of that video appeared to be a somewhat mundane dating sim, and then suddenly in the last 5 seconds of the trailer the audience went "wait, this is a trailer for a Front Mission game!?". Have I mentioned that it's a pet peeve of mine when a game is marketed like an anime, and little to no gameplay is shown in the trailer =P? The character art was just a little bit awkward, too. Regardless, the game could be decent if the gameplay is good!
Blackbird wrote:Eh, personally I don't have any beef with DDP's art direction. Giant lasers seem pretty appropriate in a sci-fi setting to me. One of the less offensive Cave projects in this regard, anyway =D.
I'm not sure what went wrong between DP and DDP, but in the latter the music, the sound effects (judging from MAME and PlayStation ports), the fire, explosions and shrapnel sprites are nowhere near as impressive as in DP if you ask me. In DP even the explosion of your own ship looks and sounds mesmerising and the lot is up there with early Raidens in terms of detailed destruction. Toaplan legacy clearly shows. I haven't seen anything quite like it in later Cave games (although I've seen only PS2 ports of Mushihime-sama and Ibara).
Blackbird wrote:Regarding the video you posted, I think the more fundamental problem there is that 90% of that video appeared to be a somewhat mundane dating sim, and then suddenly in the last 5 seconds of the trailer the audience went "wait, this is a trailer for a Front Mission game!?". Have I mentioned that it's a pet peeve of mine when a game is marketed like an anime, and little to no gameplay is shown in the trailer =P? The character art was just a little bit awkward, too. Regardless, the game could be decent if the gameplay is good!
I assume it's an eraly trailer, merely presenting what they had at that point: Megazone 23 licence (must've been cheap), songs from the OAV, some new artwork and 3D mecha models. Visual novel style presentation shouldn't be a turn-off in what most likely doesn't have very high budget (10,000 Bullets/Tsukiyo ni Saraba - hardly a bad game - was like that too).
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Obiwanshinobi wrote:
I'm not sure what went wrong between DP and DDP, but in the latter the music, the sound effects (judging from MAME and PlayStation ports), the fire, explosions and shrapnel sprites are nowhere near as impressive as in DP if you ask me. In DP even the explosion of your own ship looks and sounds mesmerising and the lot is up there with early Raidens in terms of detailed destruction. Toaplan legacy clearly shows. I haven't seen anything quite like it in later Cave games (although I've seen only PS2 ports of Mushihime-sama and Ibara).
I think I would agree about the music, but not the sound effects, those are rather fuzzy in DP. As far as the player explosion goes, I always found that REALLY annoying in DP. Sure it looks cool, but is way too long/interruptive to gameplay.
I also agree about that it is very cool to be able to blow up lots of shit in DP, that is a nice touch. And yeh, it does not really happen in later Cave games much, tho in Ibara you can blow up plenty of stuff.
But in the end the gameplay in DDP beats the crap out of DP imo, way more balanced and fleshed out. DP has somewhat of a prototype- not-quite-there-feel which was very typical for Toaplan games.
The thing that puts DP over DDP is the freaking awesome co-pilot/announcer and the kickass, serious business, music. It really makes the journey less alienating and badass! The guy also adds random commentary like "Look at the size of that battleship!", calling you rookie/kid, etc. Same deal with Dangun Feveron. Those two are really awesome and I'm glad my other favourite, the ALMIGHTY (c) Armed Police Batrider, also comes packed with cheesy one-liners and stuff. Compare it to the inane (sp?) announcers from DDP (boring as hell, completely lifeless) or Ketsui (the phrases are cool, but the announcer is just as boring), DDP-DFK (super loud watatatatata) or the indescribably annoying shrieks of Recco in Mushi.
Wait a minute, wasn't this thread about bashing Touhou?
I think what ZUN really achieves if to offer a beautiful show of lights and bullets in some of the craziest patterns around. The downside is that, sometimes, those patterns are just too boring or irritating to even navigate through. Suwako and Koishi come to my mind.
To each their own I say. I will not deny it that that one Imperishable Night review was the final nail that put me back to the STGs (I began to timidly go back in 2005-2006 with R-Type Delta, Panzer Dragoon, Omega Boost, Psyvariar 2 and others). You can blame bloodflowers for that. The review sold me the series pretty well and I couldn't believe how awesome it ran on my old PC.
Obviously, I was also completely oblivious about the whole loli fad or any crazy otaku shit as well, so the games stroke me as pretty unique.
NOW REACHES THE FATAL ATTRACTION BE DESCRIBED AS "HELLSINKER". DECIDE DESTINATION.
I'm not gonna defend DP's gameplay here as I can only take so much of two first levels, am not used to practicing with savestates and don't care about the chaining. Its atmosphere, however, reminds me of films like Wings and Partizanska eskadrila, which is pretty awesome. Don't know why DDP doesn't do it for me (inferior music and indifferent announcer aside); it's more of the same after all, but the sound and graphics alike seem less defined so to speak (more fuzzy if you like) and it just feels more pimpish and tacky all around, without epic air to it. The smoke and mirrors effect of bullet hell doesn't work for me either. I just don't find having minuscule hitbox all that awesome (would rather play as a smaller ship/character instead if the screen has to be this crowded).
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The way out is cut off
Obiwanshinobi wrote:I'm not gonna defend DP's gameplay here as I can only take so much of two first levels, am not used to practicing with savestates and don't care about the chaining. Its atmosphere, however, reminds me of films like Wings and Partizanska eskadrila, which is pretty awesome. Don't know why DDP doesn't do it for me (inferior music and indifferent announcer aside); it's more of the same after all, but the sound and graphics alike seem less defined so to speak (more fuzzy if you like) and it just feels more pimpish and tacky all around, without epic air to it. The smoke and mirrors effect of bullet hell doesn't work for me either. I just don't find having minuscule hitbox all that awesome (would rather play as a smaller ship/character instead if the screen has to be this crowded).
To tell the truth, I don't really use savestates. I just like to press start and fire away, no cutting the action in the middle. If I die, well, though luck, I got owned so I get what you mean. And I agree DonPachi feels more "grandiose" and exaggerated since you have that co-pilot talking at the right moments and the orchestral overtones make it feel "larger" in scope.
I think Crimzon Clover is one of the few that combines the small hitbox with the emotion of beating the shit out of so many big and MEAN things (even the popcorn enemies are pretty big!) and even allowing the use of lock-on guided laser missiles or plain missiles of glory and awesome. Obviously, it leans a lot towards the mental overload with all those numbers.
Anyway, yeah, back to Touhou. Stop making me go offtopic.
On the other hand, Touhou sometimes feels a bit like moving that small red-white hitbox across a labyrinth of bullets. TrevHead said it once (and several other people too), that the enemies are so small, including the bosses, that it kind of gets abstract. You don't have gigantic mechanical spiders, tuna sashimi, flying penises on fire or enormous battleships approaching fast so you either remember the characters or they all become nameless bullet emitters.
NOW REACHES THE FATAL ATTRACTION BE DESCRIBED AS "HELLSINKER". DECIDE DESTINATION.
Obiwanshinobi wrote:I'm not sure what went wrong between DP and DDP, but in the latter the music, the sound effects (judging from MAME and PlayStation ports), the fire, explosions and shrapnel sprites are nowhere near as impressive as in DP if you ask me. In DP even the explosion of your own ship looks and sounds mesmerising and the lot is up there with early Raidens in terms of detailed destruction. Toaplan legacy clearly shows. I haven't seen anything quite like it in later Cave games (although I've seen only PS2 ports of Mushihime-sama and Ibara).
Huh. I'll have to revisit the games with a more critical eye to see what you mean. I remember enjoying DDP's soundtrack. If I had a complaint, it would be that the individual tracks were too short, and there were too few of them, but the actual quality of music seemed good.
The DP announcer is pretty darned hilarious, though, I'll give you that =).
I guess I'm feeling a bit of a disconnect between what I appreciate about Cave games and what other players see in them. I hear a lot of people rave about Feveron, but then everyone picks the damn cat character and I can't even stand to listen to the game for more than a few seconds >_<. Ibara and MMP have some pretty darned intrusive sound effects, too.
Maybe that's the secret to Touhou's success... no infuriatingly repetitive voice samples =P.
but infuriatingly repetitive everything else as far as presentation goes. =b
HOW CAN YOU SAY IT'S REPETITIVE
FUCK LOOK AT ALL THESE COLORS
(please ignore all the aimed patterns, static patterns, and luck-based bullshit mixed and matched till it looks unique)
TH really bugs me because it's so regimented. Boss comes in, does non-spell, portrait, announces spell w/stock sound effect, repeat until dead. It's repetitive to the point that the one time ZUN broke out of this mold (Yuyuko's last attack) it was hailed as innovative and genius, when in reality it was just him doing one thing slightly different. Of course, the concept of bosses having one last attack when their life is depleted eventually became a part of the structure on its own, and blah blah blah I didn't play the earlier games but they look better because they aren't as samey as the Windows series.
Which is to say that I can't play TH because it is almost fractally repetitive.
Long post incoming. Also a little bit of a disjoined post incoming, because it wasn't written entirely chronologically. I usually want to stay out of this whole debate but I'm going to write my opinions on it down once and for all.
Everyone should know by now that I'm a Touhou fan. I have favourite characters, I partake in bits of fandom nonsense, and I have my own bits of fanon. And I'm not taking any sides in this argument because I hate both sides of it.
As much as I shake my head at people who deride Touhou as being shameful when put next to arcade shmups, I shake my head at everyone who considers Touhou to be the end-all be-all of the shmup genre. It's not. Personally, I don't consider anything to be. Yes, Cave and ZUN are equally my favourite bullet hell creators, I consider them to make the best shmups out there, but it's always possible for the next one they create to be even better. My current favourite shmup of all time is probably Mushihimesama - note that I haven't played Futari enough to really know if I consider it to be better ot not - and when people ask for shmup recommendations, my default answer tends to be "Anything by Cave" first.
So, anyway.
Bullet hell, to me, is about one thing - massive and awesome bullet patterns. Thus, that is to me what a poster child for bullet hell should be all about, what it should be showcasing - massive and awesome bullet patterns. Touhou DOES fulfill this criteria, and they're more colourful than what MOST other bullet hell games tend to be, making them also VISUALLY slightly more attractive. But, of course, bullet patterns are supposed to be MOVING, and still images don't always show what they're all about, thus really only giving off a vibe of "That's a lot of bullets". And multi-coloured clusterfucks are more enjoyable to directly look at in still images than, say, Mushihimesama's purple clusterfucks. But that's only looking at it from a visual standpoint, and that does a very, very poor job of reflecting what bullet hell games are all about. You really have to experience the patterns to really understand the beauty of them, and this is where the purple clusterfucks suddenly become as, if not even more awesome.
The problem is that this isn't the only aspect of it that's emphasized when it's shown as the "poster child".
It's not just a rainbow-coloured clusterfuck of bullets, it's an entire concept, that also include, primarily, music and characters. Yes, Cave games also have music and characters, but in the case of Touhou it's turned into a huge cast with a number of recurring characters, with a lot of fanworks around them, turning it into a whole franchise (to which I'd also apply the word "clusterfuck", with what it is these days). How many characters do Cave have that's appeared in more than two games? Hibachi, if she even counts as a character? Nothing negative about Cave's character design, I think it's also cool. It's only that they're far less developed as characters, where the Touhou characters are given entire fucking biographies in the game manuals, and thus there's a ton more to work with there.
And that's the problem.
Touhou is a long, ongoing series with a character cast of a size that rivals long-running shonen anime shows. Cave games are self-contained, and sometimes there's a sequel. Thus, Touhou gets INCREDIBLY more fanworks from people who like the characters, the music, the story, the setting, the everything. That part of it really is far more comparable to the latest fad animus than video games. And somewhere in there, people lose focus of what Touhou really is. A series of bullet hell games.
And that's how Touhou gets such a huge presence. Mainly the characters, but also a bunch of other stuff are very widespread, but taken out of its main context so that it's INCREDIBLY easy to mistake it for an anime series. People start liking the characters, and get into peripheral material without actually visiting the source. It's a downward spiral that leads to nothing but even more confusion, for lack of a better word.
And I hate these people, for whom I really have no more appropriate term than newfags.
I absolutely hate people calling themselves Touhou fans, and then they pirate the games while dropping a disproportionate amount of money on figurines, plushies, oppai mousepads, and god knows what. One of my good friends is like this and I inform him that he's doing it wrong at any chance I get. He does not seem to understand why I don't consider his reply of "But I already have the games" valid when I tell him to actually buy at least some of the game before he buys more figurines for far too much money.
But none of my hate in this argument is greater than the one I feel for people calling themselves Touhou fans without even playing the games. That's like calling yourself a Star Wars fan without having watched the original trilogy!
I say I don't really want to consider myself better than the people who only got into it recently, while I myself have been part of the fandom since before Imperishable Night was even released, but to be perfectly honest - I do. Your collection of figurines and other shit don't impress me nearly as much as your 1CCs and high scores would.
So where am I going with all this?
Basically, that I as a Touhou fan understand every reason why it's become a poster child, and also that I consider it to be for all of the wrong reasons. Asking me, I'd want Cave to be the poster child. The absurd amounts of Touhou peripheral material that has made it the poster child is exactly why it shouldn't be.
My 1CCs so I can find the list easier myself <Despatche> you've been a thorn in the shmups community since the beginning, you're largely responsible for the horrible face of modern speedrunning
Observer wrote:On the other hand, Touhou sometimes feels a bit like moving that small red-white hitbox across a labyrinth of bullets. TrevHead said it once (and several other people too), that the enemies are so small, including the bosses, that it kind of gets abstract. You don't have gigantic mechanical spiders, tuna sashimi, flying penises on fire or enormous battleships approaching fast so you either remember the characters or they all become nameless bullet emitters.
I see it as the act of giving up on something bullet hell shmups don't excel at. If graphics in Cave games tend to look a bit cheaper than in Toaplan games, it sort of makes sense as in Cave games you take in bullet patterns first and foremost (while you play, that is). No matter how detailed destruction is happening below, you must pay attention to the bullets and not much else. Makes even more sense in a game developed by one man (not putting too much effort in stuff you wouldn't even be able to see most of time). Of course theoretically you could have awesomely detailed set-pieces with less bullets AND moments of curtain fire in one game...
Blackbird wrote:I guess I'm feeling a bit of a disconnect between what I appreciate about Cave games and what other players see in them. I hear a lot of people rave about Feveron, but then everyone picks the damn cat character and I can't even stand to listen to the game for more than a few seconds >_<. Ibara and MMP have some pretty darned intrusive sound effects, too.
Maybe that's the secret to Touhou's success... no infuriatingly repetitive voice samples =P.
How annoying such effects are might depend on your speakers, headphones, emulator and amplifier settings... The shit is supposed to be played loud by the cab's speakers in the noisy arcade, mind you. I recall the "bzzzt" weapon of the Japanese female pop singer's plane grating in Sonic Wings Special on the PSX via speakers, but in Sonic Wings 2 on MAME via headphones it was quite bearable.
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No, it's a "Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?" thread. Those are the words you clicked on to get here.
i.e. Why in a world with so many great bullet hell games does Touhou tend to get mentioned the most and attract the most neophytes. Several people have given great examples as to why Touhou is a poster child for the genre. Comparing Touhou to other mainstays of the genre (such as Cave) is a perfect fit for this discussion. Bashing Touhou is not. It's not a "Why do some people think they are too cool for Touhou?" thread.
Touhou has great gameplay and design and has caused changes in the direction of the genre as a whole (whether you like it or not). If you don't like the games, fine, but implying they lack quality or have a poor design is just silly.
Hair wrote:Touhou has great gameplay and design and has caused changes in the direction of the genre as a whole (whether you like it or not). If you don't like the games, fine, but implying they lack quality or have a poor design is just silly.
I don't wanna sound elitist, but really, this couldn't be further from the truth.
Of course, that's just an opinion. Always seeking netplay fans to play emulated arcade games with.
You don't like something, so it must be bad, right? There are a lot of words for that mindset and none of them are nice. One day you might realize that if you don't dig something, it might be because it doesn't appeal to you. There is room for more than one opinion in the world. Especially about art, which is 100% subjective (and videogames are art).
Popularity doesn't equal quality, but there are many hardcore shmup fans that like Touhou (and have played every Cave, Toaplan, Irem etc... game so they don't lack experience). They all must be wrong... *MASSIVE FACEPALM*
Shmup hipsters anyone?
Touhou is the way that it is on purpose. And guess what, it works.
Every doujin shmup with loli/goth small enemies and small bosses? Or magic instead of missles.TH fan inspired shmups? There's quite a few of them. Almost the whole ****ing doujin scene (which is where most of the real action is at, IMO) other than Crimson Clover, Siter Skain, and ABA? x.x has Blue Wish... and Eden. Old school shmups like R-Type and Raiden aren't setting the standard aesthetic anymore.
I would say even Cave has noticed the success and has since used similar character designs (though with a twist). My favorite obviously TH inspired doujin is the eXceed series. No one is ripping ZUN off, but I am sure shmup devs are paying attention.
I didn't think examples were needed since this change in the industry is obvious, and has been talked about on this forum many times.
I never said Touhou was the most influential shmup, but to doubt the influence it does have is silly (you don't have to like it). It's the most successful doujin shmup in terms of proliferation (even across different forms of art and entertainment) and profit. I do wonder if some free shmups compete with it on number of downloads, but I doubt it.
I do think Shoot The Bullet was one of the most innovative "shmups" of it's time. It hasn't influenced other games, but it remains very unique.
ZUN is just a hack though and his games lack quality..... right....
I don't think the topic poster asked "Who hates TH? Please come give your opinions".
I feel that people only go out of their way to criticize when they need to in order to satisfy their ego. Does TH being popular and you not like it make you feel you need to bash it? This isn't aimed at MattU or Barrakketh, just a failing of the human race in general.
Barrakketh- Your post didn't give a hint of any bad attitude, so if mine does please don't take it as aimed at you.
Hair wrote:You don't like something, so it must be bad, right? There are a lot of words for that mindset and none of them are nice. One day you might realize that if you don't dig something, it might be because it doesn't appeal to you. There is room for more than one opinion in the world. Especially about art, which is 100% subjective (and videogames are art).
So negative opinions on the game don't matter, because everything is subjective.
Popularity doesn't equal quality, but there are many hardcore shmup fans that like Touhou (and have played every Cave, Toaplan, Irem etc... game so they don't lack experience). They all must be wrong... *MASSIVE FACEPALM*
Except now positive opinions do matter, because... they just do? Seemin' kinda inconsistent bro.
also stop making appeals to popularity they are dumb and they make you look dumb for using them
Hair wrote:Every doujin shmup with loli/goth small enemies and small bosses?
(Gothic) lolita fashion appeals to otaku, so that makes sense from a marketing perspective. Most of the ones I see are based off of Touhou, anyway.
Hell, take a look at the sales/viewership numbers of (relatively) recent anime. The Japanese love them some moe blobs and fanservice.
Or magic instead of missles.
Magic (or something similar) is perfect to use in a fantasy setting. After all, guns and planes of various sorts are highly unlikely to exist in one barring time travel shenanigans.
TH fan inspired shmups?
Of course those are going to be using things from the series.
Almost the whole ****ing doujin scene (which is where most of the real action is at, IMO)
I disagree. As far as Touhou doujin shmups go, IMO the only one worth playing is Concealed the Conclusion. The rest are either dull or have music bad enough to offend my ears.
As far as other doujin shmups go, Seihou Banshiryuu (note: two versions of the game exist. C67, and C74. It's easy to spot a C67 replay because of the large character portraits.) is pretty fun. Gameplay wise I think it'd be better accepted by the members here.
I would say even Cave has noticed the success and has since used similar character designs (though with a twist).
Lolita fashion originated in Japan before or around the time ZUN was born (the 70s). He hardly originated it, though he may have been one of the first to actually include them as characters in a shmup.
In any event, it is very reasonable to assume that Cave chose those character designs to give the games more appeal to those that aren't already fan of their games. The character designer (Junya Inoue) has a thing for characters like that, and it shows in other projects he has worked on. See Shotia from Dai Ou Jou for an example from a military-themed shmup.
Now maybe if they started giving everyone nice hats starting with the next DeathSmiles installment...
I do think Shoot The Bullet was one of the most innovative "shmups" of it's time. It hasn't influenced other games, but it remains very unique.
I can agree with that, though Double Spoiler has much better (read: more responsive) controls
I decided to upload a replay of the current UFO world record. I still stand by my earlier statement that ZUN needs to do something about the safespots, especially since it trivializes Parasol Star Memories.
