Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

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shadowbringer
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by shadowbringer »

my opinions:

- the series have a lot of potential for fanworks (though I myself have gotten to know the series by accidentally finding an IaMP video while searching for another video :D -- note, though, that the latter wasn't available on Youtube since YT didn't allow videos longer than 11 minutes back then), and the people who get to know the series through them will eventually get to know the games
- fighting games are imho more popular than shmups, also fighting games allow people of the same ability level play among themselves and they have netplay (while shmups have online highscore tables.. but most newcomers don't bother about it :p). Street Fighter, especially, can appeal to players of every level. (as long as there's not a large enough gap in the players' experience)
- learning how to get into shmups is (imho) a bit less obvious than learning how to get into fighting games, as (in the beginner's stage) the latter give the player at least some hope that he/she can improve (should I say, the progress is more noticeable?), while, maybe, the shmups' learning curve regarding how to properly move yourself (for people who like to say that arcade games are designed to eat your money), etc., is less obvious or doesn't give as much hints about what you could've done to avoid dying?

- some reactions from people who get to play shmups after being introduced by Touhou vary from (of course, not limited to)
-- not caring about scoring systems (in Touhou or other shmups, should he/she ever try them)
-- being disappointed by the less visually-impressive patterns (color included) in non Touhou games, but not thinking of how fun would it be to try to play and dodge them (perhaps because he/she watched videos "passively")
-- not getting interested by gameplay features (I guess most new players in general wouldn't be familiar with trying to know said features and exercising yourself by making lots of thoughtful choices which consider said features)
-- at least learning (in my case, personally) that shmups are beatable (and that doing so was a very interesting exercise), and a lot of effort on creating the stages and bosses (on arcade shmups, mostly) were previously ignored (by me) due to the idea that "it was too easy to die in shmups" or that they were "too random".
-- people not wanting to play shmups for score, because their only reference for scoring mechanics is Touhou :( (would be similar to the second case, fortunately I'm not speaking of anyone in this forum or another, but on certain people only I know)
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MEDIEVAL_MIKU
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by MEDIEVAL_MIKU »

It's probably that Toho is the first introduction to bullet hell shmups for many people plus that it has real pretty bullet patterns and hot babes to ogle over in them doujs.
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gs68
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by gs68 »

I know some people who buy the Touhou games, but I know others who think buying the games is worse than pirating them. =_=
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Sumez
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Sumez »

Judging by everything I have seen so far on videos people posted etc., seems to me that Touhou is a pretty obvious poster child for bullet hell. Looks like it's pretty much the core idea of bullet hell, being based entirely on navigating through huge slowmoving patterns. Even more so than Cave games.
Barrakketh
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Barrakketh »

Videos, eh? Here's an older world record for PCB. The same player actually beat it by a sizable amount amount, but a) I forgot to check Royalflare before I encoded/uploaded, and b) he beat that world record but hasn't yet submitted the replay, presumably because he thinks there's some room for improvement.

Stages 1 and 2.
Stage 3.
Stage 4.
Stage 5.
Stage 6.

It's still pretty damned impressive. Once he submits that run (3,098,708,520) or better I'll probably encode/upload it as well.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Bananamatic »

ALL THAT BOSS MILKING
gs68 wrote:I know some people who buy the Touhou games, but I know others who think buying the games is worse than pirating them. =_=
Every time you buy a Touhou game, ZUN gets more beer and his liver dies again
Barrakketh
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Barrakketh »

Bananamatic wrote:
gs68 wrote:I know some people who buy the Touhou games, but I know others who think buying the games is worse than pirating them. =_=
Every time you buy a Touhou game, ZUN gets more beer and his liver dies again
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Snake
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Snake »

Touhou is the only shmup developer with fans that get excited when a new game comes out. Cave fans hate every new game and complain constantly, whereas Touhou fans are just pleased as punch whenever they get a new release. So not only do they have a large fanbase, but they are more or less in lockstep that every title is great.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Barrakketh »

Snake wrote:Cave fans hate every new game and complain constantly
You could say that about almost everything. I'd question whether the people who constantly complain/hate on Cave's new games are actually fans or not, unless they live on nostalgia and only like the older releases.
they are more or less in lockstep that every title is great.
Not true, though the people who bitch tend to wait until they actually play the game before deciding they hate it. The scoring gimmick for any given release can be divisive, and TH12 received a fair amount of flak for the UFO system (which was used for bombs, extends, and score). Shoot the Bullet (9.5) and Double Spoiler (12.5) are love it or hate it games.

GFW (12.8) is mostly based on freezing bullets, and those bullets shattering deal much more damage to enemies than your shot does. It also gets some hate because it isn't a "normal" shmup (the freezing mechanic). It's shorter than the main games in the series with only three stages, but there are six routes in the game that decides which mid-boss and boss you'll fight in each stage and they'll use different attacks depending on the route.

Boss danmaku can be considerably more intense than the games in the main series (freeze the bullets to make them manageable), but if you're up for a challenge you can get a gold medal (bragging rights, wheee!) from the boss spell cards for not freezing, dying, or bombing. You get a silver for not dying or bombing, and bronze for dying or bombing. The game is more liberal with resources, particularly if you're milking attacks for score. Freezing bullets rewards you with bombs, extends, and points, and the reward are proportional to the area of the screen frozen (note: you can't freeze the bullets that are on fire except with your bomb). It's a pretty fun game.



Personally, I'd like ZUN to put more effort into removing safe spots (specifically the ones that pop up when the boss won't collide with the player, letting the player milk graze points from the boss) and lessen the reliance on graze points for your score. Milking graze to the extent that's required for serious scoring isn't something I find fun, but thankfully I get enough enjoyment from just playing the games.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by gs68 »

I will say this: With Touhou being so popular, technically this means that the few dozen Touhou cosplayers you see at anime cons are shmup cosplayers ;)

(I wanna start a shmups-that-aren't-Touhou cosplay group dammit. Team Ura Loop: Coming to a San Francissco Bay Area near you this never-ever.)
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Snake
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Snake »

Barrakketh wrote:
Snake wrote:Cave fans hate every new game and complain constantly
You could say that about almost everything.
Sure, except Touhou.


they are more or less in lockstep that every title is great.
Not true, though the people who bitch tend to wait until they actually play the game before deciding they hate it.
What can I say? I see a lot more rage about new Cave releases, and Touhou fans are pretty pleased with their diet. I saw some "12 is a bit disappointing," but nothing like some of the reactions to the last two Cave releases, and lets not even talk about the ports.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Bananamatic »

dude downloads touhou game, finds it bad, uninstalls

dude BUYS a cave game, finds it bad and feels ripped off
:lol:
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Chaos Phoenixma »

But how many bad Touhou games are there? Outside of PCB, UFO, GFW, and the photography ones, I can't think of any. Well, at least of ones I've played.


Now how many bad Cave games are there, or at least Cave games where there's a high chance of people disliking it? I don't like Donpachi, DodonPachi, I don't like Guwange, I don't like Pink Sweets(only reason I got that double pack was MMP), and I probably would hate Ibara. And there's others I haven't tried that I would probably hate too. But it's not like any of them are actually bad games.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Blackbird »

I think the difference here is that Cave is trying to transition away from it's hardcore arcade demographic into a more mainstream appeal, and of course the diehard fans aren't too happy about that. Personally, I'll wait and see what Cave comes up with. Cave's a great company, and I'm interested to see how they apply their shooter logic to other ideas.

On the other hand, we have Zun, who is more or less giving his fans exactly what they want at the moment.

Step 1, Bullet Hell.
Step 2, Lolis.
Step 3, ???
Step 4, Profit!

Who is to say if they will eventually get bored =P.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by maxlords »

gs68 wrote:I will say this: With Touhou being so popular, technically this means that the few dozen Touhou cosplayers you see at anime cons are shmup cosplayers ;)

(I wanna start a shmups-that-aren't-Touhou cosplay group dammit. Team Ura Loop: Coming to a San Francissco Bay Area near you this never-ever.)

And here I was thinking how good I'd look as a shrine maiden..... no one else here dresses up like one??
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Danza »

maxlords wrote:
gs68 wrote:I will say this: With Touhou being so popular, technically this means that the few dozen Touhou cosplayers you see at anime cons are shmup cosplayers ;)

(I wanna start a shmups-that-aren't-Touhou cosplay group dammit. Team Ura Loop: Coming to a San Francissco Bay Area near you this never-ever.)

And here I was thinking how good I'd look as a shrine maiden..... no one else here dresses up like one??
I would hazard a guess and say there are a few people here who wish to be the little shrine maiden.

I think the majority of people into Touhou don't play so much and are more into doujins and whatnot.
Since the fanbase is so big for this type of thing, you get all the YouTube comments and whatnot comparing all bullet hell to Touhou.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by the.borg »

I find such threads kind of lame seriously. First of all you are debating on whether Touhou games are poster child of such a NICHE GENRE that one can only be thankful to have such a great series of game to spread the love of shooting games. I really don't see what's the problem.

It's really stupid to look down on a game just because it has manga-styled characters and lolis (yeah by the way, manga precedes anime...), even more so when Touhou is a SOLID franchise and later games have a very good artistic style.

Then there's the funniest argument... the one implying that Touhou games are easy, that all patterns are pure memorization (thus easy !!??) and also... bullets are slow. Yeah some bullets are indeed slow, but if you play the non-carebear difficulty modes that are Hard and Lunatic you'll find near-Raizing speedy bullets ! Also later games have faster patterns than say Perfect Cherry Blossom...

All in all I find that most Touhou games end up being on par with overly hyped arcade STG titles.
And don't forget that zun pretty much invented a music subgenre with his games.

In the end it's about what gives you the most fun when playing. While most TH games have so-so scoring mechanisms I for one prefer doing a Touhou run than a DDP DOJ one !
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Sumez »

gs68 wrote:(I wanna start a shmups-that-aren't-Touhou cosplay group dammit. Team Ura Loop: Coming to a San Francissco Bay Area near you this never-ever.)
I'm sure Vic Viper would make a great cosplay costume.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Sumez wrote:
gs68 wrote:(I wanna start a shmups-that-aren't-Touhou cosplay group dammit. Team Ura Loop: Coming to a San Francissco Bay Area near you this never-ever.)
I'm sure Vic Viper would make a great cosplay costume.
I vote for the hot chicks to wear a Triggerheart Exelica costume - or does that not count either? :P
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Danza »

the.borg wrote:I find such threads kind of lame seriously. First of all you are debating on whether Touhou games are poster child of such a NICHE GENRE that one can only be thankful to have such a great series of game to spread the love of shooting games. I really don't see what's the problem.

It's really stupid to look down on a game just because it has manga-styled characters and lolis (yeah by the way, manga precedes anime...), even more so when Touhou is a SOLID franchise and later games have a very good artistic style.

Then there's the funniest argument... the one implying that Touhou games are easy, that all patterns are pure memorization (thus easy !!??) and also... bullets are slow. Yeah some bullets are indeed slow, but if you play the non-carebear difficulty modes that are Hard and Lunatic you'll find near-Raizing speedy bullets ! Also later games have faster patterns than say Perfect Cherry Blossom...

All in all I find that most Touhou games end up being on par with overly hyped arcade STG titles.
And don't forget that zun pretty much invented a music subgenre with his games.

In the end it's about what gives you the most fun when playing. While most TH games have so-so scoring mechanisms I for one prefer doing a Touhou run than a DDP DOJ one !
If you are having fun, that is great!

It just annoys me when it gets referenced to every other STG. It could be any video of a shmup on youtube and there will be some comment "this reminds me of Touhou but easier" or some other thing. It is also annoying that other companies such as G.Rev get ignored when this has such a large and vocal fanbase, a lot of whom are in it for doujins, porn and remixes of the soundtracks. Also, how many threads on Touhou popular boards do you see actually about the games, compared to "Is killing myself the only way to get to Gensokyo?" or "Which Touhou do you not want to fuck?" or whatever.

I spend most of my time not playing shmups, playing VNs, watching anime, reading manga and I have something ~$2500 of figurines pre-ordered. I hardly care that Touhou has anime styled art, really. I just find it boring and over-rated. Anyways, I'll leave it at that, it comes down to different strokes but at some point I think the fanbase is somewhat grating to fans of other STGs. If it brings people into the fold, cool beans.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Bananamatic »

the.borg wrote:And don't forget that zun pretty much invented a music subgenre with his games.
Annoying repetitive beeping isn't a subgenre
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Sapz »

You're an annoying, repetitive subgenre. :V

In all seriousness, the music is often pretty awesome.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Sumez »

But what's "new" about it? It's pretty generic.
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Bananamatic »

Sapz wrote:You're an annoying, repetitive subgenre. :V

In all seriousness, the music is often pretty awesome.
*sometimes moderately awesome(unlike the game itself)

even my mom hates zun's music, especially Border of Life

she seems to approve of HELLSINKER though
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by LtC »

I think the stage 6 theme from UFO is pretty cool. Zuntata isn't all that bad
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by CptRansom »

That's because Hellsinker's music rocks tits.

I actually like some Touhou music as long as it has minimal annoying electronic trumpet and maximum piano.

This post in no way contributes to the discussion and I'm okay with that. :lol:
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Despatche »

deathsmiles is what touhou wants to be
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Barrakketh »

LtC wrote:I think the stage 6 theme from UFO is pretty cool.
Then the doujin circles will turn around and put out something like this, which is pretty cool.
CaptainRansom wrote:I actually like some Touhou music as long as it has minimal annoying electronic trumpet and maximum piano.
This is probably the perfect arrangement of Lunatic Princess for you. Because IN definitely has some obnoxious e-trumps.
Danza wrote:It just annoys me when it gets referenced to every other STG. It could be any video of a shmup on youtube and there will be some comment "this reminds me of Touhou but easier" or some other thing.
Vocal fans of other shmups either do the same thing, or skip the comparison and go straight to calling it easy.

Personally, I'd like to see the people making either claim go do a Lunatic 1cc of one of the games and upload the replay. They don't even have to worry about scoring, just clear the game and do well enough that they wouldn't be embarrassed by other people watching. The games are fairly generous with resources so the players who are good at the genre shouldn't have problems getting a 1cc, but it wouldn't be very impressive if they were bomb-spamming like they were going up against Cave's TLBs :)
It is also annoying that other companies such as G.Rev get ignored when this has such a large and vocal fanbase, a lot of whom are in it for doujins, porn and remixes of the soundtracks.
I don't see why you should care about the people who are into the series exclusively for things that don't involve playing the games. It's not like they'd suddenly be all over G.Rev's games (or any other companies offerings) if Touhou didn't exist...they aren't STG fans in the first place. The "worst" they do is give the series more mind share among people who have some idea of what a shmup is.
Also, how many threads on Touhou popular boards do you see actually about the games
The main Touhou forum I read has a subforum (HME) dedicated to Touhou games...so a lot. Pooshlmer (an imageboard) is considerably more varied in its content, and the game threads there are primarily about doujin games.

Speaking of doujin games, Touhou no Meikyuu has several Cave bosses. Bloody Jitterbug, DOOM, Hibachi, the Dual Hibachis, and whatever this thing's name is from Pink Sweets. The Hibachis even got to keep their washing machine.
Despatche wrote:deathsmiles is what touhou wants to be
Touhou is exactly what ZUN wants it to be. He makes the games he wants to play, and started the series because he couldn't find any games that he liked. He has stated in an interview that even if the series lost all its fans he would continue making the games for himself to enjoy.

I don't think we're likely to see any drastic changes to the main series, though if he wants to play around with something he can make another gaiden game (like GFW or DS).
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by CptRansom »

Barrakketh wrote:
CaptainRansom wrote:I actually like some Touhou music as long as it has minimal annoying electronic trumpet and maximum piano.
This is probably the perfect arrangement of Lunatic Princess for you. Because IN definitely has some obnoxious e-trumps.
I will never, EVER be as good at ANYTHING as that person is on piano. Fucking hell, my pride hurts.

Beautiful. Thanks for the link!
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Re: Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

Post by Bananamatic »

Barrakketh wrote:and whatever this thing's name is from Pink Sweets.
It still has BOMBAAAAAAAAA and HADOU GUN
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