Why is Touhou such a poster child for bullet hell?

[psy]

It seems that Touhou is pretty much the face of bullet hell, it's generally the first bullet hell shooter that your average Joe will have heard of and a very common gateway into the world of bullet hell, there are fans that think it's the only bullet hell shooter out there, there are fans that think it's the best and most innovative bullet hell shooter out there, there are fans that think all other bullet hell shooters are just Touhou clones and there are 'fans' (although I prefer a less polite term beginning with 'f') that haven't so much as heard of the Touhou games, much less bullet hell shmups, yet they're totally clued up on all this stuff about the surrounding characters and backstory.

What's the deal?

[MathU]

Why is CAVE such a poster child for bullet hell?

[RNGmaster]

Because they look impressive (lots of non-linear, non-radial patterns, pretty colors, cool music) and have very dedicated and loyal fans (unlike CAVE fans, who are willing to send death threats if scanlines are rendered wrong ). The people who think TH is a more challenging bullet hell are idiots, since the patterns they consider so tough (Mokou's "trap" laser in IN, anyone?) are actually quite simple due to their pixel-aimed nature and the slow bullet speed.

The fans are what make TH so popular. If it was an arcade series made by a company, there would obviously be more divisiveness within the community. But as it is, people really can't hate ZUN - he doesn't seem to be in it for profit, he has a funny personality, and he did the entire series on his own. It's like the Cave Story guy or Notch - small dev teams inspire loyal fans.

So they have a flashy look, unlike Dodonpachi and Battle Garegga's drabness and the overwhelming (to most people who have never seen the game on any mode but Ultra) purple of Futari, and they have a posse of fanatical fans ready to spread the gospel of ZUN.

They're also pretty much everywhere, due to TH's dominance on the meme scene. Many people were bound to get introduced via viral videos - stupid as it is, that's what sticks. Touhou has frilly tentacles with hats on every corner of the internet, ready to drag you in to worshipping the messiah ZUN. CAVE, G.rev, Yotsubane, Takumi, Raizing, Psikyo, and the lot only have angry nerds on obscure forums.

[Lance Boyle]

4chan and weeaboos are the primary suspects.

[Blackbird]

Yeah, to be honest, I'm somewhat baffled as well. My best guess is that people enjoy the storyline and characters... particularly the point that it has a sense of humor and doesn't take itself too seriously. The series has been around for a long time, so that probably has something to do with it. A series survives long enough, and the name/brand starts to get around just by word of mouth (Final Fantasy, anyone?).

People might also like it precisely because it appears impossibly difficult, but is still surprisingly accessible to the average person. In other words, it looks harder than it is, so it makes you feel more impressive when you're playing it. Isn't that part of the core appeal of bullet hell, anyway?

Ah, I'm just rambling at this point.

[RNGmaster]

4chan and weeaboos are the primary suspects.

+1

[Treasurance]

it's mainstream

[Aisha]

I think it's because Touhou has a broader range of appeal. People who aren't initially interested in shmups, but are interested in things like anime and manga or videogame music are inevitably going to stumble across it, and they will find out that what they discovered is based on a series of bullet hell games. More likely than not these days, it's going to be their first real exposure to the shmup genre, and they'll likely want to give the games a try. Overall, it's a good thing that Touhou gets shmups into the hands of people, because exposure is the one thing this genre needs more of. Granted, most of these people are going to settle into the more retarded aspects of Touhou, but some will definitely stick around and look for other shmups to play after getting tired of it.

[Naut]

I think it's because Touhou has a broader range of appeal. People who aren't initially interested in shmups, but are interested in things like anime and manga or videogame music are inevitably going to stumble across it, and they will find out that what they discovered is based on a series of bullet hell games. More likely than not these days, it's going to be their first real exposure to the shmup genre, and they'll likely want to give the games a try. Overall, it's a good thing that Touhou gets shmups into the hands of people, because exposure is the one thing this genre needs more of. Granted, most of these people are going to settle into the more retarded aspects of Touhou, but some will definitely stick around and look for other shmups to play after getting tired of it.

This, most definitely. I gotta thank Touhou, if it wasn't for the silly fanbase that spread shit like wildfire and easy to get into games, I wouldn't be into bullet hell shmups at all, really.

[Sumez]

I never played a Touhou game, did I miss out on much?
I didn't even realise they were bullethell, but screenshots prove them to be pretty much that - always considered Cave the poster child for bullet hell, pretty much ever since I played Guwange the first time (I don't really find Donpachi or Batsugun that "hellish")

[Despatche]

Real Touhou games are still made. You are missing out.

[Hair]

Hate the player not the game...

A lot of good points in this thread. Touhou has a lot of crossover appeal, attracting people who aren't shmup players but dig the style of the characters and/or anime.

ZUN nailed the "beginner" bullet hell game. Lots of eye candy and "fun" patterns that change direction and do interesting things (that aren't actually very hard to dodge or get surprised by), and the bullets are very slow and easy to see. Even a new shmuper can enjoy the game (while Ketsui may prevent them from having fun as a first bullet hell game).

But on the highest diffilculty level, even a shooter vet can have a lot of fun with Touhou. It may not be the hardest game ever (so what?), and yeah it annoys me when Touhou fans say/think it is, but it is fun and well made. The spam patterns are often unique, if more about flash than anything else.

The little girl characters are annoying, IMO, but the visuals tend to be very good. If you are a bullet hell fan, you should at least check out a Touhou demo. It is a standard of the genre and it has influenced (for good or bad) many later doujin games, and even professional shmups. Zun didn't invent bullet hell (Toaplan, Raizing, Cave did), but Touhou did popularize the style it represents (again, for good or bad), and is a leader in the doujin scene.

Don't let the narrowminded fans prevent you from trying out a solid game. Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler are especially fresh takes on curtain fire shooters.

Touhou is the perfect "poster child" for bullet hell. It has enough substance, but also a very pretty face with flashy bullet patterns, characters that appeal to a lot of people (far more than are on this forum), an anime series, and long-running characters.

The "poster child" of a genre isn't always the series that a hardcore player will enjoy the most (not that Touhou fans are automatically less hardcore). To put it another way, Crimson Clover appeals to hardcore shmupers, while Touhou appeals to hardcore shmupers and non-hardcore shmupers, and even non-gamers. So of course Touhou is a poster child and I think it shouldn't be held against it.

[JoJo]

I'm willing to say, accessibility is also a factor.

[gs68]

> Attempt to show non-character CAVE shooters among other ship-based shmups to a Touhou fan slash elitist
> "Man, that shit looks boring."
> ACTIVATE AUXILARY SYSTEMS? [YES / NO]

[Bananamatic]

Real Touhou games are still made. You are missing out.

kiwami shooting

[Sumez]

Real Touhou games are still made.

I know they are. I'm not that much out of touch. Playing shoot'em ups on a PC just feels wrong to me.

[BPzeBanshee]

Real Touhou games are still made. You are missing out.

kiwami shooting

FUTAE NO KIWAMI AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Best game ever.

LOLs aside everyone's beaten me to it as what I had to say. Personally the style didn't appeal to me but that's just me, and I can see why others would like it for the PRETTY COLOURS and weeaboo stuff and all that jazz.

[Bananamatic]

LOLs aside everyone's beaten me to it as what I had to say. Personally the style didn't appeal to me but that's just me, and I can see why others would like it for the PRETTY COLOURS and weeaboo stuff and all that jazz.

Every man loves aircrafts, preferably those who can blow shit up
Every man loves explosions
Every man loves kickass music to back these two up

Touhou doesn't have any of these

[Ixmucane2]

ZUN nailed the "beginner" bullet hell game. Lots of eye candy and "fun" patterns that change direction and do interesting things (that aren't actually very hard to dodge or get surprised by), and the bullets are very slow and easy to see. Even a new shmuper can enjoy the game (while Ketsui may prevent them from having fun as a first bullet hell game).

Touhou games are the prominent example of a specific subtype of bullet hell shooter that isn't necessarily meant for beginners: good-looking but ineffective bullet patterns, slow pace not only to allow precision dodging and puzzle-like planning but also to appreciate the beauty of bullet patterns, an empty arena without distractions, a boss that plausibly shoots all those beautiful bullets, no pickups because bullets are going to be in the way, no fancy shooting and weapons because the player is going to just look at incoming bullets.
Touhou games are representative because they came early and they are more pure and iconic of later hybrid or more complex games.

Ketsui is representative of CAVE taste, which is a quite different, almost antithetical, sort of bullet hell shooter: a traditional vertical scroller revolving around bombs and powerups and big weapons and strange gimmicks and other traditional features, with the only difference of having more bullets than usual (at the expense of other standard sources of difficulty like fast-moving and ramming enemies or enemy guided weapons). Many other CAVE (and earlier) games are equally representative of this style.

[Despatche]

Touhou games have tons of gimmicks. Otherwise, something else seems wrong with that description.

Playing shoot'em ups on a PC just feels wrong to me.

Playing arcade genres on a PC feels wrong to a lot of people, and that feels more strange than they feel.

[Hair]

Edit: Ok, my post didn't disappear, my cache just didn't update the first time.

Anyways, it takes a *REAL MAN* to play as a little girl.

Edit 2: Some dialog I like from TH:

Boss says: Move and I'll shoot.

You say: ...

Boss says: Wait I got that wrong. I mean, shoot and I'll move... in a flash

Almost Bangai-O level of awesome.

[Sumez]

[njiska]

it's mainstream

That is kind of a sad truth, at least in the west.

[gray117]

Why are moths attracted to lights?

... As mentioned, I'm sure accessibility is a strong standpoint. I'm sure it will change over time.

[Vyxx]

Why is CAVE such a poster child for bullet hell?

They see me hatin'

[Ebbo]

> Attempt to show non-character CAVE shooters among other ship-based shmups to a Touhou fan slash elitist
> "Man, that shit looks boring."
> ACTIVATE AUXILARY SYSTEMS? [YES / NO]

THE HARDEST VIDEO GAME BOSS EVER!

"Touhou is way harder...

(in Lunatic mode)"

[Annoyboy]

Isn't that a fair comment though, since the "hardest video game boss ever" video shows Futari in its own highest difficulty level?

[Obiwanshinobi]

I doubt Touhou is particulary popular even with people who give a shit about doujin games. If you throw a stone at the crowd pirating PC games from Japan, how high chances are it'll hit somebody who even knows bullet hell shmups exist?
Touhou may be popular with those who play doujin games AND shmups, but those very conditions make it more like "popular". Some buzz here and there on the internet will only reach those who keep hanging around on a handful of forums. If anything, Touhou franchise (not necessarily the games) is relatively popular for a brand that has yet to spawn an anime adaptation (I know, it nearly happened once).
At this point Cave is more of a poster child for bullet hell thanks to their iPhone games, appealing to more loaded demographics, which usually evokes more hype.

[Barrakketh]

I doubt Touhou is particulary popular even with people who give a shit about doujin games. If you throw a stone at the crowd pirating PC games from Japan, how high chances are it'll hit somebody who even knows bullet hell shmups exist?

Pretty high. Really fucking high if you include "people pirating other doujin material from Japan".

The main thing to keep in mind is that there is a big difference between the relative popularity of the official Touhou shmups and the doujin material based off it, which I believe is a big reason why it has so many detractors in the western shmup community (also: if it ain't a military themed shmup, they'll probably bitch a lot). Yes, a doujin series (Touhou) has a metric fuckton of doujin material based on its characters and music.

And the sad fact is that the vast majority of people who are fans of Touhou aren't people who play the shmups (or shmups in general). Most of them [should] know they exist, but aren't interested in playing them for whatever reason. The other doujin material, whether they be comics, artwork, music, or video games based on the series far outstrips the popularity of the main series.

Which isn't to say that the derivative games are bad. Koumajou Densetsu II (commonly called Touhouvania II) is pretty fucking awesome, and puts a little bit of danmaku into your Castlevania experience (particularly the bosses). MegaMari is MegaMan (some elements from MM2 and MM4) with a lot more bullets from enemies (pretty hard IMO), and New Super Marisa Land is a fun and rather well polished take on Mario games.

Or the music, as there are plenty of awesome arrangements of all of the Touhou games themes.

Touhou may be popular with those who play doujin games AND shmups, but those very conditions make it more like "popular". Some buzz here and there on the internet will only reach those who keep hanging around on a handful of forums. If anything, Touhou franchise (not necessarily the games) is relatively popular for a brand that has yet to spawn an anime adaptation (I know, it nearly happened once).

There is an unofficial anime (A Summer Day's Dream, by the circle MAIKAZE), with a sequel in the works. ufotable is working on one as well. Just don't expect a proper series or anything.

"Touhou is way harder...

(in Lunatic mode)"

I'm not sure why someone would compare one of CAVE's shooters with a Touhou game on anything but Lunatic. Obligatory.

Touhou games have tons of gimmicks.

Yep. Basically every game since EoSD.

Otherwise, something else seems wrong with that description.

"No pickups" is definitely wrong. There are copious amounts of point items, though they aren't quite delivered in the same manner/volume as the point items you get from cancelled bullets in CAVE's recent games or the stars in CrimzonClover.

I also disagree with "Ketsui being representative of CAVE taste", since that seems to be the Dodonpachi series. Personally, I hate DDP's scoring system (chains resetting the counter instead of decrementing it like DFK) and consider it as fun as grinding in any sort of RPG.

Ketsui, on the other hand, is fucking awesome.

Playing shoot'em ups on a PC just feels wrong to me.

Playing arcade genres on a PC feels wrong to a lot of people, and that feels more strange than they feel.

I find it strange since I'd imagine most people here use MAME. Or MAME in a cabinet. Or play newer games on the 360, since I don't see much difference between that and playing games on a PC.

I could understand "playing arcade genres with a keyboard just feels wrong", but you can use a gamepad or an arcade stick.

[oli_lar]

I do think there is an element of truth in that Touhou fans discuss/watch/draw more than they do play the games. Charlie Brooker's Gameswipe is probably evidence for this, where he shows an example of Touhou as modern shmup - he or a runner probably typed in shmup into youtube and soon came across much debated videos of such (probably like Macs in that marmite kind of way). Also Touhouwiki.

It depends on where you go in the gaming community - on forums where people who play consoles mainly or don't play homebrew won't have heard of them, for example retrogamer forum has plenty of discussion of 360 shmups (and thus Cave) but no Touhou (or doujin shmups).

Question, do modern touhou fans play/discuss the PC-98 games? They're the only ones I enjoyed, Highly responsive being my fav. IMO, the more modern ones feel too serene in atmosphere.