Deathsmiles PAL release (DATED: Feb 18th)

[Skykid]

I never got to play Deathsmiles in the arcades , so I can't comment on the quality of the port, but the graphics are up there with Metal Slug 3

Ha ha, what? No they're not.

[Sumez]

I'm also impressed by the screen position adjustments, and the zoom and stretch, but for the life of me I can't understand the complete lack of any scan-line options, a low definition game like this is screaming out for them. The Smooth option is no compensation, it appears to be just a soft blur, rather than actual anti-aliasing, can't imagine anyone actually using it. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Play the X360 version?
To me, redone HD graphics is a MUCH better solution than any kind of scanlines or anti aliasing.

[hoopy]

I never got to play Deathsmiles in the arcades , so I can't comment on the quality of the port, but the graphics are up there with Metal Slug 3

Ha ha, what? No they're not.

Agreed Skykid, I got a bit carried away with the Metal Slug 3 comparison, which definitely has the best 2D hand drawn sprites and animation I've ever seen in a game. Think I'm probably just a bit over excited about finally getting my hands on a Cave shooter for me PAL 360.

I noticed a lot of the background graphics in Deathsmiles seem like they've been pieced together using bits of digital photographs, clever idea but isn't that kinda cheating.

[ptoing]

I noticed a lot of the background graphics in Deathsmiles seem like they've been pieced together using bits of digital photographs, clever idea but isn't that kinda cheating.

When you are on a schedule to get a game finished "whatever works" is fair enough. I think Cave use quite a but of photo sources for the backgrounds, but they usually integrate it very nicely so that it does not stick out in a bad way at all.

[Skykid]

I never got to play Deathsmiles in the arcades , so I can't comment on the quality of the port, but the graphics are up there with Metal Slug 3

Ha ha, what? No they're not.

Agreed, I probably got a bit carried away with the Metal Slug 3 comparison, which definitely has the best 2D hand drawn sprites and animation I've ever seen in a game.

I noticed a lot of the background graphics in Deathsmiles seem like they've been pieced together using bits of digital photographs, clever idea but isn't that kinda cheating.

Cave games were graphically more impressive in their pixel art days with the likes of esprade, Progear and Dodonpachi (they were closer to Slug 3 than any of their new stuff.)

Their output has sped up considerably since they turned to pre-renders and cut and paste imagery - not a bad concession when you consider slightly less accomplished visuals has meant more games. Some of their modelling leaves a bit to be desired on certain projects, and both Deathsmiles and Futari have their fair share of ugliness - but they proved with Espgaluda II that given the right amount of time they can produce visually cohesive and stunning packages on the SH3 board.

Akai Katana isn't bad either.

[psy]

So I've read the first few pages and the last couple of pages of this thread (I'm not reading through 20 pages, sorry), try not to tear my head off if this has been answered in one of the many pages I skipped or if I should have done my research a bit more:

Has the slowdown thing in the EU / US release that everyone was bitching about been patched? I don't really care either way, I have various reasons to be for (something about it makes me 'click' into my flow and really play my all) and against (makes things easier, and I like things to be horribly hard when it comes to shmups) the addition of slowdown, I'm just curious as to which one I'll end up getting when I finally buy it.

[StarCreator]

DS PAL shipped with most, if not all, of its modes patched to include slowdown that is very close to that of the Japanese release. At around the same time, DS NA received a patch making the same changes. The only point that hasn't quite been tested yet is if DS MBL 1.1 (a 360 exclusive mode, and paid DLC in the JP version) is consistent across the three versions, but no one seems to really care enough to test.

Just get the version for your home region, they're all pretty much exactly the same now aside from the JP versions not having as much content on-disc.

[Tyjet]

The only point that hasn't quite been tested yet is if DS MBL 1.1 (a 360 exclusive mode, and paid DLC in the JP version) is consistent across the three versions, but no one seems to really care enough to test.

I don't have the JP or the EU, but I can make a comparison video of MBL 1.1 if someone is able to upload a video from the pal version (it would have to be on a scoring run though). I'm still confused with the slowdown issues with the EU vs. US and like to know. I'm sure it's there. People may have reports no slowdown in MBL1.1 because they didn't play it correctly. I mean, most of the slowdown occurs in power up mode and when the screen is filled up with items.

[StarCreator]

What we really need is each of them running side by side by side, with one stick wired to provide the exact same input to all three. Then we'll know exactly what's different.

[IseeThings]

I'm also impressed by the screen position adjustments, and the zoom and stretch, but for the life of me I can't understand the complete lack of any scan-line options, a low definition game like this is screaming out for them. The Smooth option is no compensation, it appears to be just a soft blur, rather than actual anti-aliasing, can't imagine anyone actually using it. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Play the X360 version?
To me, redone HD graphics is a MUCH better solution than any kind of scanlines or anti aliasing.

Maybe there were legal issues with having scanline effects?

I'm not joking.

I can't use such effects in emulators because they screw up my eyes and give me migraines.

Publishers are generally weary of things like that, and there are pretty strong rules against anything that could trigger an epileptic fit etc. so it wouldn't surprise me if somebody had put their foot down and said 'NO' over them.

As for visuals, the 360 mode looks really good, and I'm not usually a fan of the mix+match hi-res/lo-res combo games, SNK / Capcom being the worst offenders. The difference here is that things were done correctly. The original SH3 board graphics are pretty ugly, not helped by them choosing such a low resolution in the first place. Lower resolutions tend not to work as well with fancy effects, yet Cave chose the very 'late 80s / early 90s' resolution of 320x224 for their new hardware when even dated 'modern' systems such as Naomi had been running at twice that for a while. I guess it allows them more content (4x less pixels = 4x more possible graphics without increasing capacity) but it does look rough in places.

The Hyper NeoGeo 64 suffers from the opposite issue, they bumped the resolution, but not the capacity. The hardware could do some killer 2d visuals that blew the original NeoGeo aawy, but didn't have the rom space to store as many graphics overall because of it which is probably why you never saw a Metal Slug 64, but instead just some shoddy 3d fighters. It's almost as if SNK forgot the only strength of their original system was the ROM capacity.

[bcass]

The Futari port has scanlines options, so I very much doubt it's a legal issue.

[hoopy]

Play the X360 version?
To me, redone HD graphics is a MUCH better solution than any kind of scanlines or anti aliasing.

Yeah I totally agree Sumez. I applaud Cave for going to all the trouble of enhancing the graphics for the 360 mode. It looks a lot better, and the quality of the game definitely warrants the extra effort. I sincerely hope they do the same on all their SH3 ports. I should have clarified I'm thinking more about the Arcade modes. Just seems a bit strange to leave out a scanline mode, considering the Futari port has one, as pointed out by bcass. Who knows maybe IseeThings is correct about the legal issues.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine the original arcade game uses a 4:3 CRT interlaced scanline monitor. In which case some sort of scanline emulation would of made the arcade mode more visually accurate on modern LCD displays, if nothing else.

[BPzeBanshee]

Play the X360 version?
To me, redone HD graphics is a MUCH better solution than any kind of scanlines or anti aliasing.

Yeah I totally agree Sumez. I applaud Cave for going to all the trouble of enhancing the graphics for the 360 mode. It looks a lot better, and the quality of the game definitely warrants the extra effort. I sincerely hope they do the same on all their SH3 ports. I should have clarified I'm thinking more about the Arcade modes. Just seems a bit strange to leave out a scanline mode, considering the Futari port has one, as pointed out by bcass. Who knows maybe IseeThings is correct about the legal issues.

Lack of scanlines sounds a little bit odd to me as well, but then it's not like I actually ever use scanlines myself. As for the HD business, I'm a bit of a gameplay > (more than) graphics guy. The HD stuff may be nice but at the end of the day if you care about the graphics more than gameplay you're nuts. And when graphics actually hamper gameplay (see original Killzone) it's not worth it at all, though I'm sure that isn't the case here for Deathsmiles. Well done Cave and Rising Star Games.

[Sumez]

Actually I find it a lot easier to dodge bullets in the HD version DeathSmiles.

I think the arcade low-res version of DeathSmiles looks like it was actually meant to be a higher resolution, but was downscaled to fit the hardware it was released on (and for all I know, that's probably the case). Better visual feedback = better controls.

[BPzeBanshee]

Actually I find it a lot easier to dodge bullets in the HD version DeathSmiles.

I think the arcade low-res version of DeathSmiles looks like it was actually meant to be a higher resolution, but was downscaled to fit the hardware it was released on (and for all I know, that's probably the case). Better visual feedback = better controls.

I suppose that's more along the lines of Battle Garegga's Type 2 with changed bullets for improved visual feedback, so HD is quite the plus in this case. I should have this game arrive on my doorstep within the next few days hopefully and then I'll be able to enjoy the original + HD version all weekend if it arrives on time.

I won't accept that as an excuse for when people bitch about games lacking HD function though, it's not a 'standard' demand as much as it's a 'bonus' nitpick, know what I mean?

[hoopy]

Actually I find it a lot easier to dodge bullets in the HD version DeathSmiles.

I think the arcade low-res version of DeathSmiles looks like it was actually meant to be a higher resolution, but was downscaled to fit the hardware it was released on (and for all I know, that's probably the case). Better visual feedback = better controls.

Think you may be onto something there. If I remember correctly, I read that Cave intended to release Deathsmiles on the 360 from the beginning, so making the game at a higher resolution makes perfect sense. Who knows maybe Cave has done the same thing with it's other new games, let's hope so.

[Skykid]

Actually I find it a lot easier to dodge bullets in the HD version DeathSmiles.

Makes no difference. HD is superior visually, inferior as a game. Arcade mode offers the most accurate arcade experience when playing for score.

[Sumez]

Care to explain why you consider HD inferior gameplay wise?

The fact that the low-res arcade mode is closer to the arcade original does not automatically make it a better game, I'm sorry.
I still stand by my original claim that the HD graphics make it easier to dodge the bullets (as in better controls - opposed to lower difficulty), making the game more enjoyable to me. Being able to compare my score with someone playing the original arcade game does not make the game more enjoyable to me, there are enough people on the X360 leaderboards to play for scores in X360 mode.
And as already stated, I'm sure Cave had a HD port planned from the beginning.

I love the fact that they included a mode that's roughly identical to the arcade original, but I prefer to play the HD update.

[dan76]

In Deathsmiles the slowdown in Arcade mode is virtually identical to the original PCB - in 360 mode it's not.

In MBL, Arcade mode has more slowdown in the first 6 stages (like the PCB) but less in the EX and Castle stages - 360 mode has less slowdown in the first 6 stages, but more (like the PCB) in the EX and Castle stages.

I'm not sure Cave did plan an HD port so early, as the backgrounds are still low res. Who cares anyhow, it's out - enjoy.

[Skykid]

In Deathsmiles the slowdown in Arcade mode is virtually identical to the original PCB - in 360 mode it's not.

In MBL, Arcade mode has more slowdown in the first 6 stages (like the PCB) but less in the EX and Castle stages - 360 mode has less slowdown in the first 6 stages, but more (like the PCB) in the EX and Castle stages.

I'm not sure Cave did plan an HD port so early, as the backgrounds are still low res. Who cares anyhow, it's out - enjoy.

^
There be your answer.

[Sumez]

I'm not sure what you consider it an answer to? HD graphics make a worse game because the slowdown in that version in the game in question is not 100% identical to whatever it was in the arcade version?

You aren't making a lot of sense, so I'll repeat my previous response:
The fact that the low-res arcade mode is closer to the arcade original does not automatically make it a better game, I'm sorry.
It's fine that you think so, but it's not very objective.

The arcade mode and X360 mode are two different versions, the X360 mode doesn't try to be an exact arcade port, so don't treat it as one.

[Skykid]

I'm not sure what you consider it an answer to? HD graphics make a worse game because the slowdown in that version in the game in question is not 100% identical to whatever it was in the arcade version?

You aren't making a lot of sense, so I'll repeat my previous response:
The fact that the low-res arcade mode is closer to the arcade original does not automatically make it a better game, I'm sorry.
It's fine that you think so, but it's not very objective.

The arcade mode and X360 mode are two different versions, the X360 mode doesn't try to be an exact arcade port, so don't treat it as one.

This is not really any kind of argument, please don't misunderstand me. The benefits and drawbacks of all modes have been debated since we were playing the Japanese release a long time ago.

The arcade mode is considered one of the most accurate ports Cave has ever released. In a game where scoring and survival is based around risk and very sensitive timing (to land crown reload points) the arcade mode is more conducive to getting a good competitive score than the X360 mode.
Personally I prefer the HD mode visually without a shadow of a doubt, and that's the mode I'd rather be playing. But because I'm playing for score and want the scoring benefits of the original game, I have to play on arcade mode if I'm doing a serious run. It's kind of a no-brainer in that respect.

[Sumez]

Listen, SkyKid. I was talking about the gameplay benefits of the HD mode as a response to BPzeBanshee's claim that he cares about gameplay above graphics.
Even bringing slowdown and arcade accuracy into that discussion doesn't make any sense to begin with, so if you'd care to read my posts before answering we wouldn't even be discussing this.

I'm not disagreeing with most of the stuff you're saying (except from your blatant arcade perfect = superior gameplay statements), but the stuff you're saying doesn't have anything to do with what I was talking about, and that's the fact I'm trying to get through to you.

[Skykid]

I know what you were talking about, I read it. You asked me this:

Care to explain why you consider HD inferior gameplay wise?

I gave you an answer.

[Sumez]

HD referring to HD graphics in general, not the 360 version of DS specifically.

Apparently I'm still having a real hard time explaining to you what I mean, but everyone else seems to get it, so it's ok I guess. I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive in my previous post, I have a habit of doing that when I'm being forced to repeat myself several times. >_>

[StarCreator]

HD referring to HD graphics in general, not the 360 version of DS specifically.

I don't think anyone but yourself took his comments to mean that HD graphics universally equals worse gameplay. It's a simple fact that DS 360 in particular plays better in Arcade than 360 mode.

[Sumez]

I know what he was talking about, but that doesn't change the fact that what he's talking about has nothing to do with what I asked. As I have now said for about the fourth or fifth time.

But people should really stop using "plays better" as a synonym for "plays more similar to the arcade version".

[Skykid]

But people should really stop using "plays better" as a synonym for "plays more similar to the arcade version".

I'm not sure who's confused about what here.

[DocHauser]

But people should really stop using "plays better" as a synonym for "plays more similar to the arcade version".

This sounds more like a topic for discussion on the Pink Sweets thread, regarding the infinite lives feature/glitch (delete as appropriate).

[hoopy]

I'm not sure Cave did plan an HD port so early, as the backgrounds are still low res. Who cares anyhow, it's out - enjoy.

Are you sure the backgrounds are low res? I thought they looked improved along with the sprites. As you say though, main thing is it's finally out, and we can actually have these discussions, waited long enough - Certainly am enjoying it.