Armchair dev: Make the next entry in your fave series.

[Drum]

Dude, why don't you try teaming up with BPzeBanshee or somebody from the Development forums and make a Salamander type game using your ideas? Speculation and wishlist threads are fun and all, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And we don't get no eating if we don't have no pudding.

Yay, I feel popular.
I can't say I'm much of an expert in Gradius-style horis/hybrids but once GMOSSE is finished and I have time to twiddle my thumbs (and this pain in my right hand stops before it ends up like RSI) I could certainly have a crack at such a project providing some proper design templates could be made to give me an idea as to what to code.

O RLY? Actually, making a Gradius fangame is way down my list of things to do, but I sure could use a GM programmer for my current project (which has more in common with verts than horis, even if it plays out sort of like Bangaio/Baraduke) as I am a programming fool. If you're interested at all, I can PM you some details!

[gameoverDude]

Giga Wing 4

Concept: Follow up to Giga Wing Generations. Do it as a 16:9 "vertizontal" game on Taito's Type X2. Takumi is most probably dead, but someone can pick this franchise up- preferably Cave.

New features:
* Add a 3rd button for Cave style Auto-fire
* Three more Reflect types
- Reflector Laser (like Giga Wing 2)
- Reflector Beam (a straight frontal beam that gets stronger and slightly wider based on your reflected bullet count)
- Reflector Boost (your weapon power is temporarily increased for an amount of time based on the RBC, with your bullets producing medals as they strike the enemy)
* Get rid of weapon powerups, like Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu did.
* Mars Matrix ships as time release players. These would not have the regular bomber, since you would use the fully charged meter for GHB attacks.
* Tension bonus system (let bullets come fairly close before activating the Reflect system for some sort of bonus)
* A "Heavy" mode with more bullets than GWG. Something midway between a Maniac and an Ultra mode.
* More of a futuristic setting than the existing GW series, for something a little different.
* 2 True Final Bosses (defeat the first TFB with your multiplier over a certain minimum to fight the 2nd TFB)
* Bring back GW2's Volcanons,
* Character art by Joker Jun.
* Soundtrack by Takeshi Miura (Razing Storm BGM composer)

[BPzeBanshee]

Dude, why don't you try teaming up with BPzeBanshee or somebody from the Development forums and make a Salamander type game using your ideas? Speculation and wishlist threads are fun and all, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And we don't get no eating if we don't have no pudding.

Yay, I feel popular.
I can't say I'm much of an expert in Gradius-style horis/hybrids but once GMOSSE is finished and I have time to twiddle my thumbs (and this pain in my right hand stops before it ends up like RSI) I could certainly have a crack at such a project providing some proper design templates could be made to give me an idea as to what to code.

O RLY? Actually, making a Gradius fangame is way down my list of things to do, but I sure could use a GM programmer for my current project (which has more in common with verts than horis, even if it plays out sort of like Bangaio/Baraduke) as I am a programming fool. If you're interested at all, I can PM you some details!

I probably couldn't do much hands-on help but I can certainly try and point you in the right direction to some programs that have helped me (because I dont consider myself a terribly-good expert in GM either).

If I had a clue as to how I'd go about it, I'd implement dynamic rank in GMOSSE.

Should not be too hard I think. All you need is a some values which increase rank. Such as survival time for example or if you score a lot. And then some things that make that value go down, like bombing or dying.

And then you can just add a variable to things like speed of the bullets or amount of bullets in the patterns and such.

It should really not be a huge deal if you sit down and plan it out a bit.

Planning it out on a programming level to integrate into GMOSSE (which gameplay wise isnt a hell of a lot at the moment), as well as on a gameplay level is currently a bit of a headache at the moment but putting it that way planning is the only major obstacle. Probably wont look at it for a while though due to other areas I want to work on when I get time and less pain in my hands.

[Drum]

I probably couldn't do much hands-on help but I can certainly try and point you in the right direction to some programs that have helped me (because I dont consider myself a terribly-good expert in GM either).

Guidance is really all I could expect or hope for, really - as I am discovering, making a game is a massssssssive undertaking and as this is my first game ever I wouldn't want to drag anybody down with me or force anybody to deal with my bullshit.
When I have some properly completed assets and the engine has a bit more to it, I may start a topic on the dev board so you could poke your nose in there if you ever get curious.
I'd have to check with a mod first, as even though it will be quite possible to play the game as a shmup, or borderline shmup, and even though a lot of the mechanics are inspired by purebred shmups, there is a pretty strong action-platformer streak running through it (game is kinda sorta Thexder/Alisia Dragoon meets Bangaio).

All the best with your hands - I had almost-but-not-quite-RSI for a year and it made me want to murder.

[BPzeBanshee]

I probably couldn't do much hands-on help but I can certainly try and point you in the right direction to some programs that have helped me (because I dont consider myself a terribly-good expert in GM either).

Guidance is really all I could expect or hope for, really - as I am discovering, making a game is a massssssssive undertaking and as this is my first game ever I wouldn't want to drag anybody down with me or force anybody to deal with my bullshit.
When I have some properly completed assets and the engine has a bit more to it, I may start a topic on the dev board so you could poke your nose in there if you ever get curious.
I'd have to check with a mod first, as even though it will be quite possible to play the game as a shmup, or borderline shmup, and even though a lot of the mechanics are inspired by purebred shmups, there is a pretty strong action-platformer streak running through it (game is kinda sorta Thexder/Alisia Dragoon meets Bangaio).

All the best with your hands - I had almost-but-not-quite-RSI for a year and it made me want to murder.

Thanks man, I'll definitely keep an eye out around the Development forum for your topics. In fact I have my eye across all topics there, none are marked as new on my page.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Some sort of more interesting scoring/rank system I guess, but no bullshit that encourages you to play like a retard (see: Ketsui, Battle Garegga etc. - basically all the games this board likes)

Your firepower might be a reward for good performance. Some shmups did that in a way (point blanking stuff with Force charges your special attack in R-Type Delta, grazing the bullets makes your weapons stronger in Psyvariar and Shikigami no Shiro), but I'd like to play a shmup with chaining along the lines of Shinobi for the PS2 and GunValkyrie for the Xbox (where fast killing not only earns you high score, but also gives you abilities necessary to get the most out of the game). I didn't play GunValkyrie, but seems to me that some of its features wouldn't be out of place in the likes of Chelnov. As for Shinobi (PS2), well, now that's what I call chaining.
Devouring your enemies is also a feature I've yet to see in a shmup outside of Digital Devil Saga 2 (where the presentation of it is merely symbolical).

Sorry, truly I am, but this is exactly the sort of stuff I was talking about when I said 'bullshit that encourages to play like a retard'. No grazing, no point blanking, no quick shots, no chaining (unless you are clever about it). Gradius is all about tactical play when it's at its best, and about memorisation when it's at its worst - those things encourage memorisation. A bit of randomness could fix that, but then people would bitch about how high-scoring is too luck-dependant (and I could not argue very forcefully that they are wrong). Poorly-designed scoring systems that actually make the game shallower when played at higher levels (once you've solved the puzzle and/or memorised the entire game) are a cancer in modern shmups. A chain system that I'd be ok with would be losing a bonus for letting enemies fly off-screen or something, but that's hardly interesting.

Again, I'm not talking about doing risky things "for the score". Did you play any of the games I referred to? I'm talking about playing the game technically. Chaining is THE way to play Shinobi to the point where I doubt the game would be beatable without it. Your sword gets more powerful with each kill for a few seconds, therefore killing weakest enemies first (as quickly as possible) allows you to twat bothersome damage soakers with one strike, provided you are FAST (if you are being slow, your own sword kills you anyway). It's a game about fast killing, just the way a shmup should be. Psyvariar and Shikigami no Shiro were just examples of shmups TRYING to do something along those lines, but not quite to the extreme. R-Type Delta is the closest to what I'm talking about because charging delta attack is the way to end things quickly. Another example is the charged flamethrower from Contra: Shattered Soldier (I'm afraid YouTube vids of Shinobi and Shattered Soldier expert runs won't give you the idea what's best about those features; you just need to get the hang of it). Here's a vid of somebody taking down a boss with literally one strike. The game makes it look like some kind of exploit (it's not very good at pimping itself), but this very kill is Shinobi in a nutshell. Here is a fine example of masterful charged flamethrower usage (the fight would be much longer without it, and yet it's still old Konami quality).
Gradius being full of damage soakers, it'd make sense to allow you to earn little time frames of firepower vastly exceeding your standard fare (as a reward for good performance, such as fast killing) to finish them bosses faster (with a score bonus for doing so, and score PENALTY for not being fast enough, so no amount of milking would make up for it).

[Drum]

Gradius being full of damage soakers

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm. No? Not at all really.

I am afraid I am gonna just have to totally disagree in every way here. In games where you can actually create your own situations to take advantage of it, chaining is AOK by me - running away like a girl so enemies chase you in single file then turning around and sweeping thru them? Cool.
In Gradius, you can't realllllly do that - there are very few enemies that actually follow you, so it's about dealing with whatever the game throws at you ... tactically! I just want it more tactical - that means less memorisation, which means possibly more variables, which means no dedicated chaining/quick kill mechanics ever ever ever. Maybe in Gradius: Bangaio edition?
Besides which, your firepower is already reward for good performance in Gradius - murder the orange aliens, wear their skins, get some murder tools. That is kind of the big deal with Gradius.
I am ok with some risky techniques for fast kills when you are in a bad spot though - like, the jet flare when you activate a speed up could be made into a realllly effective weapon for taking out particularly tough enemies when you are in a pinch. You can already do that in a few Gradius' I think, I can't remember which though. And of course the Limit shield and the Salamander 2 Option missiles would work. (EDIT: Also, every Gradius has the ol' bullet-limit-on-screen trick, so you can hammer enemies if you get in their face and there's the natural risk v reward thing of hanging at the business end of the screen). If you mean something like, say, missiles having a mild stun capability so you can set up tougher enemies for a real clubbing? Yeah, I could get onboard with that. If the player can choose his setups, that's fine.

[Drum]

Saw some Shinobi PS2 footage and I think I should play this game.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Maybe a missile exploding shortly after getting launched - short range weapon, that is - could reach further and power up on its own if it destroys a popcorn enemy before exploding? This would render shooting through swarms of popcorn deadly efficient. Such a missile, having destroyed more than, say, six small fry drones along the way, could even gain homing capabilities. People who like flashy numbers on screen would enjoy their "missile chains", but it would be also tactics necessary to destroy bigger enemies faster. It could also make the game temporarily angrier (rank).

Saw some Shinobi PS2 footage and I think I should play this game.

It's quite rough around the edges, but developers should play it indeed. Easier to explain how it works than why it works so well.

[BIL]

point blanking stuff with Force charges your special attack in R-Type Delta

Killing / blocking stuff with the Force, period, charges the bomb in Delta. Proximity is irrelevant.

Which makes the ensuing response funny and sad:

no point blanking, no quick shots, no chaining (unless you are clever about it). Gradius is all about tactical play when it's at its best

since "tactically" leaving the Force in a spot where it'll soak up lots of enemies / shots while the ship is elsewhere is often a good idea, for survival and/or score (use bomb to survive/store bomb for x2 multiplier on Force kills).

[Drum]

Why is that funny and sad? Maybe I am misunderstanding you?

I should play Delta, it actually sounds pretty fun - this is coming from an R-Type hata (not really, but I have numerous issues with the series that it sounds liked it fixed).

[BIL]

Well, it's funny because the exchange is a textbook forum trainwreck of partial information and false assumption. It's sad because you then apparently dismiss Delta, a highly tactical game, as featuring "retarded bullshit" while praising the relatively bland Gradius.

I have no idea whether Delta fixes the issues you've got with the series, but if a lack of flexibility is one of them, yeah, it does. You're a lot freer to move around and improvise. It even discourages checkpoint milking for score (no extends) without bludgeoning the player over the head as Gradius tends to, and you can actually play it for a personal best score without leaving the console on while you're at work (no loops)!

[Drum]

I didn't dismiss Delta, I said mechanics that encourage point-blanking are bad (as an addendum: if it's so effective it makes competing strategies redundant) - he was just using Delta as an example of point-blanking. Also, he wasn't even saying that point-blanking was the only way to charge your force pod - he simply said you could point-blank. False assumptions!!
Now:
If Delta isn't, in fact, all about point-blanking, how could I be dismissing it? I've made it clear that I haven't even played Delta.
If Delta is actually about tactical play, as you say, then surely I must be all about Delta?
Stop being so precious about this one game that nobody was even criticising. Compose yourself.
Summary: you read too much into the talk about Delta, made the only actual false assumptions in this current exchange, and tripped over your misplaced moral outrage. I hope you are ok though!

[Drum]

Also, while am dicking around trying to play R-Type Delta, I would be very interested in a breakdown of how Gradius Gaiden is tactically bland compared to it so I know what I have to look forward to!

[Rob]

I said mechanics that encourage point-blanking are bad

Clearly said by someone who hasn't scored a tech bonus in either Strikers 1999 or Dragon Blaze. Tsk.

[Drum]

Woah, I didn't even know there was a third button in Dragon Blaze.

EDIT: Hey cool, when you play it like that it's sort of like Captain Tomaday! Dragon Blaze is a game of many layers.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Woah, I didn't even know there was a third button in Dragon Blaze.

EDIT: Hey cool, when you play it like that it's sort of like Captain Tomaday! Dragon Blaze is a game of many layers.

You said it.

[BIL]

I didn't dismiss Delta, I

Mentioning Delta's pointblanking in the context of "retarded bullshit" = retarded. You're welcome for the advice. And I was clarifying his post so you'd realise the wrong assumption you'd made, not refuting what he'd said.

I actually think your attitude to stuff like point-blanking, quick shots etc is "retarded," ie the stance on shooters I'd expect from someone who has difficulty clapping their hands.

If Delta is actually about tactical play, as you say, then surely I must be all about Delta?

Yes, that's the sad part about dumb assumptions. You might see not all pointblanking is the same if you'd even watched a Youtube video of someone playing Delta competently.

Also, while am dicking around trying to play R-Type Delta, I would be very interested in a breakdown of how Gradius Gaiden is tactically bland compared to it so I know what I have to look forward to!

It's Gradius Gaiden. Do I need to say more? I'm going to assume you've actually cleared the first loop, preferably on Hardest (ie about normal for Gradius) difficulty. I think a much better question is, what exactly is so "tactical" about an easier-than-average vanilla Gradius? Can you use the ship or its powerups against the level designs in particularly unique or technical ways, like you can in Delta thanks to the Force and its associated mechanics? I'm drawing a total blank here. Are you sure it's not the pretty colours and rad soundtrack impressing you? I was the same, like five years ago.

Woah, I didn't even know there was a third button in Dragon Blaze.

I believe you.

[drei :3]

I suppose what Drum was about with point-blanking is something like this: When point-blanking plays a big role for scoring, it usually makes it banal to figure out the best scoring strategies. You figure out the path of an enemy and you know you should shoot it when close, so this doesn't sound like there's much left to figure out.

Sensible expectation (not for a particular game, I mean as a rule of thumb)?

[BIL]

I would qualify that by saying it's easy to make the mechanic sound bland on paper. Ketsui, Raiden Fighters Jet and Dragon Blaze are all games where point-blanking is important for survival and scoring (edit: maybe not so much the former in Ketsui's case), and they're certainly not mediocre experiences for it.

But admittedly in all three there are several other mechanics involved. Either additional scoring systems (RFJ) or unique ship features (Ketsui / DB). In Delta it's just one way of connecting the Force with enemies and bullets.

[RNGmaster]

I didn't dismiss Delta, I said mechanics that encourage point-blanking are bad

Just because you dislike bullet hell doesn't mean you have to dismiss a potentially fun mechanic. There is nothing more stylish than scoring a TB in Dragon Blaze, and milking every second of point-blanking in Crimzon Clover ain't bad either.

[Drum]

I didn't dismiss Delta, I

Mentioning Delta's pointblanking in the context of "retarded bullshit" = retarded. You're welcome for the advice. And I was clarifying his post so you'd realise the wrong assumption you'd made, not refuting what he'd said.

q: Does R-Type Triangle actually encourage point-blanking for high-level, score-based play or is steam shooting out of your ears for no reason? If point-blanking is just one of many valid stratagems, with no special advantages for score, why would I have a problem with it, given that that was my problem with point-blanking? Isn't this more just you misunderstanding the nature of the misunderstanding between me and Obiwanshinobi, and not my understanding of the game whose honour you are so bravely defending?
The joke is that I wasn't making any assumptions about the game - I took him at what I thought was face value, but I was actually ignoring his specific examples (not having played the games) and simply rejecting the concepts he brought up as they relate to scoring - which wasn't his angle anyway. For some reason he quoted a part of my post about scoring and decided to talk about chaining/point-blanking/grazing as it related to firepower. It wasn't very clear, but it was a perfectly innocent communication error. When I understood that he was using the quote as a springboard to talk about firepower, there was no serious disagreement and I even tossed out a few examples of ways in which Gradius actually does incorporate point-blank mechanics already.
Relax already, SHEESH.

Woah, I didn't even know there was a third button in Dragon Blaze.

I believe you.

I just found out about the third button in Captain Tomaday too.

[Drum]

I didn't dismiss Delta, I said mechanics that encourage point-blanking are bad

Just because you dislike bullet hell doesn't mean you have to dismiss a potentially fun mechanic. There is nothing more stylish than scoring a TB in Dragon Blaze, and milking every second of point-blanking in Crimzon Clover ain't bad either.

I didn't say it wasn't fun - I like Omega Fighter as much as anybody - I just said it was retarded. Virtually all my favourite shmups are retarded, with a few exceptions - one of which I thought was Gradius Gaiden. Now that I have been reliably informed by BIL here that it is, in fact, retarded ... my opinion of the game has not changed at all.

BIL: I looked up R-Type Triangle on yt, and that actually looks pretty cool. One thing I really appreciate about its approach to point-blanking is that you still get to see all the pretty lasers.

drei :3: I don't want to look too much like I am riding your banana, but thank you - that is an excellent summary of my exact position. Seems like there is typically more to games like that when you don't understand how they work and there are still actually interesting decisions to be made instead of just 'doing it right'. Not that I have ever come close to getting real good at this stuff. Is there an Omega Fighter Special hi score thread?

[BIL]

I'd assumed you were doing the "you mad" thing for laughs, but seriously - I'm not mad at you. I'm just a bit of an elitist prick.

I honestly thought it was a shame to see a sophisticated but entirely conventional shooter like Delta filed in (however superficially) with deliberately blasphemous stuff like Garegga, Border Down, Shikigami III, etc. I love both kinds of game, but I understand why an Ibara superplay will disgust some players.

edit: Gradius and its sequels don't qualify as "retarded" at all in my book, for better or worse. They're just the baseline standard, at least for horis.

If point-blanking is just one of many valid stratagems, with no special advantages for score, why would I have a problem with it, given that that was my problem with point-blanking?

I dunno.

It wasn't very clear, but it was a perfectly innocent communication error.

Yeah, I see that now. Sorry!

[Obiwanshinobi]

For some reason he quoted a part of my post about scoring and decided to talk about chaining/point-blanking/grazing as it related to firepower. It wasn't very clear, but it was a perfectly innocent communication error. When I understood that he was using the quote as a springboard to talk about firepower, there was no serious disagreement and I even tossed out a few examples of ways in which Gradius actually does incorporate point-blank mechanics already.

Well, yeah, but the bottom line is: if instead of powering up and down like in venerable Gradius (where you are supposed to power up fully as soon as possible and stay like that until the end), some bold (and/or cunning) behaviour (not necessarily pointblanking) earned you "bursts of superpower" so to speak, it would make sense to attach the score and rank to the amount of stuff you destroy (provided there's always more on screen than you can possibly destroy) and dealing with the bosses fast. In such a game you would ALWAYS (no matter how underpowered) stand a chance to do something awesome shortly after losing a life. Granted, I had more of a Compile shmup in mind, but can't see why wouldn't it work in a horizontal one such as Gradius. Those bursts - if timed properly - could be opening secret passageways, demolishing the obstacles and so on, thus strenghtening the spirit of adventure horizontals excel in.
As for Delta, the cool thing about it is how you leech off your enemies. It's not as game-defining as in Psyvariar or Ikaruga, but it feels unique, unlike waiting for power-ups and bombs to appear.

[ED-057]

Is there an Omega Fighter Special hi score thread?

there is one for stgt 2007

No grazing, no point blanking, no quick shots, no chaining

New scoring system brainstorm time. What if the player dodges an aimed bullet which then goes on to strike an enemy, resulting in a bonus? What if the player could fly out of the screen or teleport a short distance and receive a bonus for skipping over bullets/enemies? What if the point value of an enemy depended on the direction that it was facing when it went boom? What if explosions from shooting enemies or scenary created shrapnel that could damage other enemies for points? What if the player could place and remotely detonate an option?

[Drum]

If point-blanking is just one of many valid stratagems, with no special advantages for score, why would I have a problem with it, given that that was my problem with point-blanking?

I dunno.

It wasn't very clear, but it was a perfectly innocent communication error.

Yeah, I see that now. Sorry!

We cool. Respectable: it is the easiest thing in the world to walk away from an internet dance battle without apologising for your part in it, knowing that nobody is gonna remember except for the guy on the other end of it, and you totally didn't do that. Megaprops 2u!
I respectfully disagree about Gradius being the baseline standard for horis, but I'm not gonna sit here and talk about why I think it is so great when if there was a point to this thread at all it was to fix what is wrong with it while still preserving what is good about it, and I'm not gonna make a list of horis I think are more baseline because that would just be lol.

Well, yeah, but the bottom line is: if instead of powering up and down like in venerable Gradius (where you are supposed to power up fully as soon as possible and stay like that until the end), some bold (and/or cunning) behaviour (not necessarily pointblanking) earned you "bursts of superpower" so to speak, it would make sense to attach the score and rank to the amount of stuff you destroy (provided there's always more on screen than you can possibly destroy) and dealing with the bosses fast.

Yeah, this works for me. I guess maybe: Like when you get a powerup in Compile shmups, there could be a tiny moment of invincibility when you activate a powerup (but better, because you can choose when you power up in Gradius). Crash into an enemy while so protected and the moment of invincibility could be extended each time you crash, so you can take out a whole bunch at a time. Something like that. And maybe you could double the amount of power-up pods enemies drop if you kill them this way? idk

New scoring system brainstorm time. What if the player dodges an aimed bullet which then goes on to strike an enemy, resulting in a bonus? What if the player could fly out of the screen or teleport a short distance and receive a bonus for skipping over bullets/enemies? What if the point value of an enemy depended on the direction that it was facing when it went boom? What if explosions from shooting enemies or scenary created shrapnel that could damage other enemies for points? What if the player could place and remotely detonate an option?

The teleport/flying out of the screen idea reminded me that I thought it would be cool to reintroduce the screen-wrap bell power from the OG Parodius, but as a shield (or mapped to the Option manipulator button) for one of the ships. Would be good times. I very much like the remotely-detonating-Option idea and that is totally going in my imaginary Gradius VI. Gave me an idea for a laser type too: One selectable ship can lay options everywhere like mines. Shoot the options with the laser and it bounces between all the options you laid really fast, like a laser spiderweb of death.