Vertical or Horizontal shmups?

[dunpeal2064]

Most verts that people love are played for score, so you keep coming back for more

Take a look at the high score boards, there are plenty of horizontal shmups there. Gradius V being one of the biggest ones.

People still play Horis for score, but there is still no score mechanic (In most, of corse there are excpetions)

Unless I am mistaken, the only scoring mechanic you could implement in Gradius V would be not dying, killing everything, and milking bosses.

Not to talk trash about Gradius V. Its great, and great 2p. I just don't play it for score. Too long

[Drum]

You could do a lot with scoring in Gradius that they haven't really done. More involved rank, bonuses for clocking the power-up meter, discovering secrets etc. But you'd have to be careful not to let it mess up the core Gradius gameplay because playing for survival in Gradius is about as interesting as playing for score in most verts - it operates at a high level even at the low level.

[rocketassistedkea]

I like both; but prefer Horis...because of the walls;0)
My IDEAL...is a slow, methodical, hori bullet-hell.....partly why GV impressed the pants off me. Weapons use and gameplay tend to be more tactical too...as the added geometry of the walls, just adds another dimension to survival.
RS is really an honourary hori...

That said, one problem with just about every hori game I've played; is at least one final level [sometimes 2], which is a rubbish; 'dodge the blocks/stay in THIS corner'...type thing. At least with the verts...you get no wastage; none of the levels you want to skip.

Of course, it then depends on my mood. Horis tend to be more intellectual, verts more action-packed. All good hard shmups, give a nice adrenaline rush, regardless...why I'm a fan of rank;0)
I also couldn't give a toss about score...something that never changes. I don't play pinball machines for survival, and I don't play shmups for points.
But hey;0)

Z

[neon guide]

I used to love horis way, way more than verts - thunderforce, gradius, r-type, etc. were what got me playing shmups, and i really hated playing verts for a long time. Always liked a nice parallax background, but Layer Section / Galactic Attack / whatever opened my eyes to verts
That said, Darius Gaiden, Metal Black, Hyper Duel and Gradius Gaiden are fab games.

What made cave go back to making horis after deciding not to make another one after Progear?

[whoozwah]

I'll play either one if it's fun but I have more vert games than hori games.

[A_Civilian]

...Can't we just rotate the screen to make it whatever we want?
Barring that, tilt your head?

[Deca]

I definitely prefer verts. My favorite horzi is Border Down (probably because it feels to me more like a vert, style wise) and it IS actually among my favorite games, but most just don't do it for me. I always go into a horzi expecting it to be some plodding, drawn out, frustrating experience. They usually don't have any sort of dynamic scoring system and I really hate having to dodge the environment.

I can still enjoy horzies from time to time. I like Lightening Force quite a bit, and I've always had good feelings about Metal Black, but these aren't games I'm ever going to beat myself up practicing or really take particularly seriously.

[harrihaffi]

I've allways liked vert more because I didn't like the profile-view as much as I like the overhead one. And when I tried playing 1945 strickers with a rotated screen, it felt harder to see where the enemy bullets where heading. Lately I have found myself to be a bit tierd of the bullethell(that most verts seem to have) and felt a greater atraction towards R-type games. Also I do prefer when games do let you continue from the last checkpoint instead of where you died.(this to is something I think is more commen in horis than verts even thou there are exeptions) So I'm not sure anymore...Are there any R-type like verts?


MVHH

[Ghegs]

Are there any R-type like verts?

Prime example would be Image Fight from the creators of R-Type.

[Frederik]

The Progear that should have been...

thats awesome..

Being head over heels in love with Progear right now, I have to say I´m really, really glad they made it a hori. The whole setting with the mountains in the background of the first stage, the hills, bridges and all that... these scenic elements would have looked really odd in the top-down vertical view. Looks like they hadn´t implemented the scoring system yet, since the ship lacks the gunner options.

It definitely took me a while to get used to handling hori bullet dodging, but after playing verts almost exclusively for the past four or five years I´m really loving the change. It helps that this is the first game where I really enjoy scoring, much more than any other CAVE shooter.

I also really like the "verizontal" type like Mars Matrix or Radiant Silvergun, even though that format doesn´t really make much sense... I just do

[MR_Soren]

Deathsmiles makes me want to say horizontal, but it's only one game. Overall, vertical is better.

[GrimoreLibrarian]

I'd play both if the game is good, it makes no difference to me. I can easily see why verts seem to be more popular due to it being more common. I maybe wrong, but it seems like vertical shmups out number horizontal shmups. I think it would be nice to see more horizontal shooters coming out. The only recent one I can think off the top of my head is Hydorah.

[rocketassistedkea]

Border Down looks a lot like Thunder Force IV/V...basically, all honorary Verts, with the aesthetics [i.e; 13-20+! layers of background parallax in TFIV] of a hori. Radiant Silvergun's basically a hori, where you fly up the screen. PG's basically a vert, but looks nicer...b

I LOVE the added challenge of the walls...even if a game like R-Type isn't [quite] a bullet-hell....the walls are like immobile, predictable walls of flak.....you play these games more with careful 'taps' of the controller to squeaze between everything that can kill you, rather than zooming round trying to dodge whole groups. You basically pick a position, and try to hold it for as long as possible...not being forced away by concentrations of magic flying diamonds....you squeeze inside, even advancing upon little pockets of flak, that might force you away. TF/RS style tactical weapons that can fire all around you, are clearly useful. Otherwise...you just have to advance into clouds of flak; to make little attack runs. It's pretty much the opposite. You have to be as aggressive as possible, giving up ground slowly...once you're near the back of the screen and have nowhere to go...you're toast. But that's the same as a vert, I guess.

I don't know if it's been emulated properly yet [saw a version on MAME that I tried downloading a while back...looked nothing like the beautifull arcade game I remember]; but Xexex is a really stunning hori, that plays in the style of R-Type...but has some pretty awesome rank, that more-or-less turns it into a bullet-hell. You have a shield, and can can recharge it [slowly]...but it's a VERY hard game, with the scenery only being a small part of the challenge. The aesthetics [and gameplay] are so good; it even inspired my whole 6th form art folio. Stage's three and four are especially memorable. I recommend it.

Verts are more of an instant adrenaline rush...possibly giving them a longer life [I'm not thinking about score here, just shooting stuff and surviving], but hori's fire my imagination much more, when I'm into them. They're both good;0) But I'm certainly craving more horis, I think the aesthetics and gameplay have much more potential/room to evolve the shmup...and I'm glad to see others are craving them too;0) The solution, or 'a' solution, to improving gameplay overnight; is to make them bullet-hell, like GV on the hardest settings. More flak wouldn't work in R-Type as it is...'cause it's simply TOO fast. Gradius seems to have the speed about right...I've lost my memory hard, but once you finish it on the hardest setting; it unlocks a second loop/setting-which is truely bullet-hell. In fact, I think the best bits in GV...are the most underutilized [the very short, 2nd and 3rd levels...which are even shorter, as when/if you die...you come back with an explosion that clears the screen]; where you infiltrate a base with lots of tunnels. The worst bits...are the boss fights which drag on far too long..they wouldn't in a vert.
If someone made a game with long GV 2nd level type...levels [doh], a TF/RD style weapons system-not black-hole powered, with the ability to clear the screen...like most verts, instead you began with at least some/didn't lose them all, plus the option to at least turn it into a bullethell=instant an instant classic;0)
But that's just me...b

Stop pandering to the player, by handing them screen-clearing megarays...like an ego rush, and an injection of raw suger....I'm talking to you Cave! Heh heh. Every game plays the same, in that sense. Seriously...I'd like to see them attempt a slow methodical bullet-hell, and toning down those weapons-with a wider, more imaginative, more varied and tactical assortment of weak[ish], zappy things. Maybe you'd have to just accept you won't be able to wipe out everything...and will have to just clear a path, instead. That would be a little diferent...a worthy challenge for them.

Z

[Frederik]

I LOVE the added challenge of the walls...even if a game like R-Type isn't [quite] a bullet-hell....the walls are like immobile, predictable walls of flak.....you play these games more with careful 'taps' of the controller to squeaze between everything that can kill you, rather than zooming round trying to dodge whole groups. You basically pick a position, and try to hold it for as long as possible...not being forced away by concentrations of magic flying diamonds....you squeeze inside, even advancing upon little pockets of flak, that might force you away.

This is what I really liked about Radiant Silvergun when I finally got to play it. The crammed corridors with enemies inside, having to quickly figure out what weapon to use feels very different from the pink clouds of spinning bullets modern CAVE titles offer.

I´m not really into the R-Type style that tends to involve a lot of memorization, but the assault of bullets, laser, rockets added to the walls and boxes in RSG feels in a way more real and dangerous these fluffly little candy bullets. It definitely has a much more of the "horizontal spirit". I really love the parts where you get trapped somewhere and have to dodge in a enclosed space - like that boss that traps you inside a cross shape, starts rotating while attacking you with lasers and bullets. The battle with that giant caterpillar was brilliant as well. To me, it doesn´t really matter how fast a game actually is but how busy it makes me - meaning if it keeps me on my toes or not.

Sure, RSG has a lot of weaknesses, but the somewhat reduced speed mixed with a more claustrophobic level and boss design worked really well. To me it really is the perfect blend between the more epic, bombastic feeling of hori shooters and the dense bullet patterns of modern manic titles. I don´t care for the scoring system at all, but I often caught myself creditfeeding through it just enjoying what the game threw at me.

A lot of modern bullet hell games feel a lot more abstract - and that´s still one of the things that keeps me from enjoying Touhou: I will never get over the fact that a enemy the size of a desktop icon can throw ten thousand bullets at me at once. It feels a lot more weightless than fighting inside a giant boss that rotates while shooting out rockets that fill half of the screen.

[Wonderbanana]

[
Sure, RSG has a lot of weaknesses, but the somewhat reduced speed mixed with a more claustrophobic level and boss design worked really well. To me it really is the perfect blend between the more epic, bombastic feeling of hori shooters and the dense bullet patterns of modern manic titles. I don´t care for the scoring system at all, but I often caught myself creditfeeding through it just enjoying what the game threw at me.

RSG's only 'weakness' is that it became known and sought after by the masses.

It's an exceptional game and I love the 3 button weapon system; it's like playing a piano with one hand!

[Hair]

I think the biggest difference between the two genres is based on their divergent evolution, not one direction being better than the other. Horis took after Gradius and R-Type while verts evolved along a different path. Games like Progear, DS, End Effector etc... show that a danmaku hori plays much like a danmaku vert. And of course games like RSG show that a vert can play a bit like an old-school hori. I do find it easier to see where my ship needs to be in a vert though. I love bullet hell games so I tend to play verts more often, but variety is good too. Parodius, Progear, and Border Down are my favorite horis.

What made cave go back to making horis after deciding not to make another one after Progear?

I would guess it is that they wanted to appeal more to people with widescreen TVs since they started porting their games to consoles more often. The arcade market was in decline, and a hori makes a little more sense to *most* console gamers. I don't think it is selling-out either, their horis are great and so are their verts. I'm glad they're making both. Vertizontals work on widescreens too, but I think they might want to keep their verts traditional when in the arcade setting since they still do make arcade games.

...Can't we just rotate the screen to make it whatever we want?
Barring that, tilt your head?

Only if the controls rotate too. Of course if you have an arcade stick, you can just rotate it is well, it just makes the button placement funky.

I also really like the "verizontal" type like Mars Matrix or Radiant Silvergun, even though that format doesn´t really make much sense... I just do

I think it makes perfect sense in games with slower bullets. A lot of classic verts have a lot of side-to-side scrolling (when your ship moves from all-the-way on one side to the other). Instead of scrolling, they could just show it all on screen and you end up with a square instead of a standing rectangle. Vertizontals just go a little wider and a little shorter; It doesn't change things as much as it appears, although a tate'd screen does provide a lot more vertical travel for bullets than a short widescreen of the same surface area. I love how a vert looks with a real "tate" screen, but verizontals look awesome too and very cinematic.

Sure, RSG has a lot of weaknesses.

I've only put about 50 hours into RSG, but I haven't found a single weakness or flaw yet. They must be very hidden.

Okay, the color chaining system is not everyone's cup of tea, but it adds a lot of life to the game once you get survival down. The color you are trying to chain at a given moment can totally change the way you complete a certain section (to a higher degree than most vertical scoring systems). The Saturn mode also allows you to play for survival with saved weapon levels and totally ignore the colors.

Not being liked by everyone doesn't make it a weakness or flaw. RSG is about as perfect as they come.

[Kobayashi]

I have no preference. I like both equally.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

It's really hard to say. On one hand, you get more interesting bullet patterns to dodge. On the other, you get actual level design to mix things up. Going to have to vote both, for now.

[RNGmaster]

It's really hard to say. On one hand, you get more interesting bullet patterns to dodge. On the other, you get actual level design to mix things up. Going to have to vote both, for now.

So pretty much, "Level design = obstacles and walls =/= enemy placement"
By that logic, Crimzon Clover and Dodonpachi do not have actual level design.
I can't claim to understand what you're trying to say.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Well, yeah. You can't really say enemy placement is a part of level design if there's nothing else between you and them.

[FunHazard]

100% love for horizontal shmups, they return to me higher immersion.

[KidQuaalude]

Well, yeah. You can't really say enemy placement is a part of level design if there's nothing else between you and them.

Lol. Nonsense.

[Kollision]

You can't really say enemy placement is a part of level design if there's nothing else between you and them.

I was about to agree, but.....

By that logic, Crimzon Clover and Dodonpachi do not have actual level design.

They do have level design, but not one to directly influence gameplay.
But... what about stronger ground enemies placed between you and incoming cannon fodder?

Level design and gameplay are interconnected.
However, it does play a more important role in horis than verts.

[Deca]

Well, yeah. You can't really say enemy placement is a part of level design if there's nothing else between you and them.

Wow. Like, seriously wow, damn.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Level design and gameplay are interconnected.
However, it does play a more important role in horis than verts.

For horizontal shmups, you can't really have level design because it's unnecessary to have to learn what's background and what's not. Also, I love how people who disagree with me give absolutely no reason as to why I'm wrong. Classy.

[NzzpNzzp]

Terrain placement isn't the only aspect of level design, dude. Enemy placement is just as important, even if you don't think it is.
I mean, it's a lot more fun to play a level with enemies but no walls than one with walls but no enemies.

[DragonInstall]

Vertical for me. It just feel it's more natural and it offers more interesting / intense bullet patterns in the games I've played.

[tinotormed]

Even though 95% of the shmups I play are verts I do like horizontals. While verts are great for scoreplay and playing in an OCD fashion, A good hori are more fun any ways that most verts arnt and thats the fantastical journey through unique stages that makes for more immersive and fun in a more casual sense. I suppose thats why most western retro gamers prefer their old horis to verts.

For me who tends to spend a long time on a single vert, horis make a great choice as a standby shmup when I get abit sick of my main shmup and just want a relaxing fun game

I could agree with you more, because even though I like verts, horis are much more of a liking to me. Most PCE horis ( Coryoon, Magical Chase, Dead Moon) are too easy but the challenges it only involves is scoring and survival. If you would see my channel, you would see that clearing Dead Moon in 1-life or with a higher score can be a bit of a challenge, since destroying the asteroids can be tough, though. And for Magical Chase, getting a no cherry/remedy superplay can be tough either because of the fact that most enemies will just keep throwing stuff at you, so is the stage 5 boss, but if you memorized the stage layout and design, just like I do, it would be easier. I would also vote for Gradius II since even though it's very easy (destroying Shadow Dancer gives you excessive extends), clearing every loop on 1-life can be a small challenge, even for speedkilling bosses ( this requires option positioning and stage layout memorization).

[MR_Soren]

By that logic, Crimzon Clover and Dodonpachi do not have actual level design.

They do have level design, but not one to directly influence gameplay.

Are you saying the placement of enemies doesn't directly influence gameplay?

[Kollision]

By that logic, Crimzon Clover and Dodonpachi do not have actual level design.

They do have level design, but not one to directly influence gameplay.

Are you saying the placement of enemies doesn't directly influence gameplay?

Well, the rest of my post addressed that.

But let me elaborate. What I meant to say is that directly influencing gameplay is the same as confining the screen area where you're allowed to move.

I see gameplay as being comprised by (1) enemy placement, (2) obstacles and (3) enemy bullets. The influence from enemy placement is different from the influence posed by walls and such, which appear more frequently in horis. The kind of challenge in DDP is a lot different from, let's say, Ikaruga. DDP allows for more freedom, even if it demands more herding, fast kills, etc. Ikaruga is just balls claustrophonic in parts, and exactly due to physical, indestructible obstacles, which are totally absent from DDP.