Could Shin'en make a classic?

[sethsez]

These guys frustrate me. They obviously have the talent to make a fantastic game, and they seem to care about the people who play their games (the scoreboards for Iridion II and Nanostray are a great touch), but for some reason they keep screwing up simple things.

Iridion II: Could have been great, but was obviously hindered by the lack of a save feature (which admittedly wasn't their fault). However, even considering that, the feeling of progression through the game just sucked. It felt like a collection of levels more than a cohesive game, even though the story mode tried to tie everything together. And it was far too easy, especially for a game that was attempting to be a new Viewpoint. The weapons were also a bit of a joke... I routinely forget that I even have the option of other weapons since the standard foward fire works so well.

Still, it had fantastic graphics and even better music (I can still hum some of the themes), and some of the levels were pretty good, and if the good levels were kept, the bad ones dumped, and the game laid out in a more traditional fashion, it could have been a far better game.

Nanostray: This one is more frustrating, because since it's so much better than Iridion II, the faults stick out even more. First, there's no plot. Nothing in the manual, nothing in the game. This doesn't seem like a huge deal, but since the game has the same structure as Iridion II, with an emphasis on individual levels rather than overall flow, it feels even more like a collection of stages. Now, this is an interesting approach, but it would still be nice to just play through all the stages like a standard shmup. Without that option, it feels incomplete.

The walls are another complaint people have. Now, Iridion II had the same walls, so functionally this is no different, but in that game you could actually see the walls. Here, there's just an invisible barrier you can't pass. It's easy to get used to, but I shouldn't have to get used to it at all, because it shouldn't be there.

However, with all of that said, what works in Nanostray really works. Many of the levels are great, the pacing is just about perfect in most of them, the graphics are gorgeous, the art design is miles ahead of the Iridion games, and all of the weapons have their uses without any of them dominating. I don't think the music is quite as catchy as Iridion II, but that's a matter of preference more than anything, and what's here is still extremely good. The scoring system also shows incredible maturation from Iridion II's simplistic style.

So... am I the only on who thinks that, if they work out some of the kinks in their design, these guys could eventually make a classic? They've shown huge improvements, and all that's holding them back now are some stupid things that probably sounded like good ideas at the time.

[iatneH]

I hate the perspective viewpoint, it makes hit detection weird all over the screen, and it makes it hard to aim at things, and bullets move differently at the bottom of the screen than they do at the top.

[sethsez]

I hated it in Iridion II, but it doesn't bother me in Nanostray for some reason. I do think they could make the tilt a little less blatant, though.

[pixelcorps]

as with pretty much ALL european made, wannabe shooters, it's always a case of "nearly, but not quite"..

if they're not copying another shooter pretty much pixel for pixel, they always miss the mark..

[Vexorg]

Of their games I've only seen Nanostray, but I would be really interested to see what they could accomplish if they did a straight-up Japanese style shooter. I doubt they ever would though, the whole health-bar bit seems to be far too entrenched in Euroshmup design for anyone there to make one without it. I couldn't see a Japanese style manic selling all that well in the West anyway, owing to all the "Waah, it's impossibly hard!" reviews and automatic bargain basement status.

The major flaw I see in Nanostray is the weapon switching, which seems to have been done for no reason but to have some excuse to use the touchscreen. They could have just as easily used the Y button to switch weapons and it would have been far easier, and you wouldn't need to take fingers off the buttons to do it either.

[sethsez]

Yeah, the weapon switching really is stupid. I'm used to it now, though, but it really should have been done differently.

And on the hardest difficulty in Nanostray, one hit kills. The health bar is still there, but a collision with anything lowers it to zero. I find the game much more enjoyable this way.

[dave4shmups]

as with pretty much ALL european made, wannabe shooters, it's always a case of "nearly, but not quite"..

if they're not copying another shooter pretty much pixel for pixel, they always miss the mark..

That's a pretty broad generalization. There are plenty of awesome Euroshmups available for the Amiga; in fact, some of the most highly-praised shmups for that computer were/are Euroshmups.

And even for home consoles, Project X2 for the PS1 is one of the best home console shmups I've ever played.

I don't think they reach the quality of Japanese shmup developers, however, European shmup developers have more then proven that they can hold their own, IMO. I agree that they tend to be more stage-centric i, but that's just a different design approach, and to me, at least, is no better or worse then the more flowing Japanese shmup design approach.

[sven666]

And even for home consoles, Project X2 for the PS1 is one of the best home console shmups I've ever played.

.

you sir, are MAD!!!
that is by far one of the WORST shmups i ever played, console and arcade...

even tiger heli on the NES beats its shitty ass..

ed: youre right about the amiga tho...

[dave4shmups]

Whatever, I don't care, I LOVE Project X2 And, once I get a CD32, I can finally experience Project X!

[pixelcorps]

yipes, some people on here are easily offended... laugh it off.. I think he was trying to be funny...

[dave4shmups]

yipes, some people on here are easily offended... laugh it off.. I think he was trying to be funny...

I don't care anymore if he was or wasn't, and in any case I just changed that post to avoid de-railing this thread. At any rate, though, as I've said, I don't think that the stage-centric design approach of Euroshmups is any better or worse then the stage design approach taken by Japanese shmup developers. Both, IMO, are equally enjoyable.

[drohne]

nanostray really disappointed me, and it makes me think they're happy to continue in their own problematic style rather than improve.

[jp]

Shin'en has a ways to go before they make a classic. First, they need to get the BASICS of making a shmup down... then add all the "cool factor" stuff that they've been doing.


I loved Nanostray, but the lack of a TRUE Arcade Mode, level by level high scores, and a main high score that only gets affected by 3 levels = lame as shit. I don't mind the camera, but the invisible walls suck, and they just dropped the ball on a lot of other tiny basic things.