THE greatest run n' guns of all time?

[Rob]

I think the running part is probably key in this run n gun business. Might as well start calling Gradius a run n gun at this rate.

[louisg]

My favorite run n gun is Mr. Driller

[DocHauser]

I'm gonna do arcade up to '87 and include Thexder because I want to.

Wot, no Baraduke?

I don't think Xain'd Sleena has aged all that well either. The shooting/platform bits are decent, but the inbetween space shmup bits are pretty rubbish and the jerky scrolling could give you a headache.

Meanwhile, I don't think anyone's mentioned Biomechanical Toy yet. It's pretty cool, and it doesn't seem to be that well known:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyh2it_FANQ

[Drum]

You can just fly in Baraduke!

When compiling my definitive list I wisely decided to ignore the 'run' and 'gun' components of 'run and gun' and boil it down to its mechanics, so: 'platform shooter with more shooting, less platforming' and all those games totally qualify. Like, Jump Bug is an odd duck but you can see the origins of the scrolling platfomer genre there and it's a good game that gets no love. Would be like having a timeline of shmups and not including Space Invaders, or a timeline of platformers and not including Donkey Kong.

Also, Xain'D SleenA's space sections are a lot better than Contra's 3D sections!

[TransatlanticFoe]

Any love for Judge Dredd for SNES? This is one of the best movie tie-ins ever in my opinion

I rented it way back in the day and spent ages trying to beat Rico only to finally do so and find a shitload of levels after it. I took it out again but could never get out of the final level.

I recall the early levels being rather cool but the whole thing was upset a bit by the massive rewards you got for arresting people rather than killing them

[Rob]

I wisely decided to ignore the 'run' and 'gun' components of 'run and gun' and boil it down to its mechanics,

This is not wise, no. Run and gun obviously refers to more than just mechanics. Important elements of a run n gun/help:

-You will not be a car.
-You can shoot and run simultaneously.
-You can shoot in more than one direction while running.
-Stages are linear.

What remains of the timeline?

[Drum]

Legend of Kage (1984)
Thexder (1985)
Contra (1987)

[Rob]

And now you see why Contra is loved.

[DocHauser]

You can just fly in Baraduke!

Or you can run along platforms if you want, so it's not much different to Thexder in that respect (where you spend a fair amount of time flying). I wouldn't count either game as a run n' gun, for the record.

[Drum]

And now you see why Contra is loved.

First: I accept your definition for run n guns but, in a shocking twist, based on the mechanical distinctions (moving and shooting, linearity). I apologise for polluting the thread with straight platform shooters though - it was an honest (albeit stupid) mistake and now I know better.
I think it's sorta the other way around tho - Contra is loved (because it's a good game, mostly), so the standards were set around Contra, to the exclusion of many games that are very similar and more abundant, with the result that there are actually a vanishingly small number of contenders that Contra can be loved more than within its actually very narrow sphere. Like, fully half of the genre is apparently composed of Contra/Metal Slug sequels according to your (reasonable) definition.

DocHauser: You don't really spend that much time in the air in Thexder in standard play. I mean, you can - you can play through a big chunk of the game in jet mode if you want - but mostly the jet just acts like a crawl function or turrican's razor ball mode thingy because the robot mode is sooo much better in combat. Kissy running on the ground is just a cosmetic touch (mostly - you do run very slightly faster than you hover), sorta like Opa Opa's legs in Fantasy Zone.

[DocHauser]

Fair enough, I've never really played the original Thexder that much, to be honest. I did download the demo of Thexder Neo for the PSP but it didn't really grab me enough to make me buy the full version.

[Rob]

Like, fully half of the genre is apparently composed of Contra/Metal Slug sequels according to your (reasonable) definition.

It is a small genre, but the things I listed don't exclude something new and different like Left 4 Dead 2. That's the game I've been wanting to mention since I saw this thread.

[louisg]

I wisely decided to ignore the 'run' and 'gun' components of 'run and gun' and boil it down to its mechanics,

This is not wise, no. Run and gun obviously refers to more than just mechanics. Important elements of a run n gun/help:

-You will not be a car.
-You can shoot and run simultaneously.
-You can shoot in more than one direction while running.
-Stages are linear.

The linear part is important because it means the games are *not* exploration games like Metroid or Turrican. It's basically a shmup, with a focus on dodging bullets, but you're on foot. Yet, even though the character is on foot, platforming is kept minimal-- it's peripheral to the main focus of the game, which is shooting stuff. This differentiates them from games like Mega Man where the focus is smart item collecting/usage and platforming. Bosses tend to be similar to shmup bosses. Finally, the analogy between horizontal shmups and vertical shmups is similar for run n guns, too: the formula is tweaked, but the distinguishing characteristics are kept intact.

[Drum]

Fair enough, I've never really played the original Thexder that much, to be honest. I did download the demo of Thexder Neo for the PSP but it didn't really grab me enough to make me buy the full version.

Maybe give Thexder:Firehawk a go? Runs good in DOSBox, expands on the Thexder concept well, feels like an 8-bit Alisia Dragoon or a streamlined Super Metroid or something. Is good.

Was just playing Baraduke again and I really don't know what you were trying to pull with that 'run n gun' non-sense. Number of purple gobstopper bullets in that game says it has to be shump.

It is a small genre, but the things I listed don't exclude something new and different like Left 4 Dead 2. That's the game I've been wanting to mention since I saw this thread.

D:< If we are going down this dark path, Night Stocker (arcade, 1986) would be the best Contra game ever if it passed the 'are you a car?' test.

[DocHauser]

Was just playing Baraduke again and I really don't know what you were trying to pull with that 'run n gun' non-sense. Number of purple gobstopper bullets in that game says it has to be shump.

Heh. Actually, I said it wasn't a run n' gun, just like some of the games you listed weren't run n' guns either.

Anyway, what about Ninja Spirit? I played that one a lot. Almost 1CC'd it, in fact, but kept getting killed off in the cavern-plunge just before the final boss. Seriously, that wasn't funny. I reckon it just about scrapes into the run n' gun list, due to the fast pace, linear levels and emphasis on shooting/slashing rather than platforming. The Turbografx/PC Engine conversion was really good, though it played slightly slower and gave you the option of wimping out and choosing a health bar rather than one-hit-kills.

[MadScientist]

Sticking with the ninja theme, Mystic Warriors is a pretty cool effort by the developers who made Sunset Riders. Personally I think it's better than Sunset Riders, but it doesn't seem to have the same kind of following (probably because it was sadly never ported anywhere).

[1up]

Sticking with the ninja theme, Mystic Warriors is a pretty cool effort by the developers who made Sunset Riders. Personally I think it's better than Sunset Riders, but it doesn't seem to have the same kind of following (probably because it was sadly never ported anywhere).

Mystic Warriors? Is that an arcade release?

so going by Rob's definition, which I agree upon:
-You will not be a car.
-You can shoot and run simultaneously.
-You can shoot in more than one direction while running.
-Stages are linear.

games like Commando is also a run n gun even though its top down and vertical? You're NOT a car can run and shoot simultaneously, shoot in all directions and the stages are linear and not autoscrolling like gunsmoke.

My faves:
Contra
Metal Slug 1,3,X
Wild West C.O.W.

is shinobi a run n gun or what will you define that as? only thing missing is shooting in all direction?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Important elements of a run n gun/help:

-You will not be a car.
-You can shoot and run simultaneously.
-You can shoot in more than one direction while running.
-Stages are linear.

What about Raf World, where you can only shoot forward (i.e. you can run left or right, but shoot only in the direction you are facing)? Also, if stages are linear, then what about branching paths? Isn't "you can't go back" more like it if you want to exclude games focused on exploration rather than shooting? But then you can go back in Ninja Spirit, which can be played exactly like a run 'n' gun with 8-directional shooting and has got extremely linear levels. Also, if you choose fixed shot in Gunstar Heroes, you can't shoot and run simultaneously.
I'd say an important aspect of run 'n' gun is that at least some of your weapons should have range limited only by the screen's size (but still require aiming). Otherwise the difference between melee and projectile weapons would be as cosmetical as between shooting and spellcasting (or vehicle and character for that matter).

[drauch]

Yeah, what? Since when is a Run 'n Gun a sidescrolling action game? Is any sidescroller where you shoot a projectile a run n' gun? I thought we were talking about Contra, Alien Soldier, Gunstar Heroes, Sunset Riders, Metal Slug, etc instead of slow stuff like Assault Suit Leynos, Son Son, Alisia Dragoon, etc. I think a lot of people are getting mixed up here. I cannot compare something like Shinobi to the frantic gameplay of Metal Slug.

[evil_ash_xero]

Yeah, i'm a little lost at some of the games people are listing as Run N' Guns...but I didn't want to be rude.

When I think of Run N' Gun, I don't think "Karnov" or "Mega Man". Sorry guys.

You do have a gun in Mega Man, and you do run, but it's just...not. It's more of an "action platformer", I would say.

[DocHauser]

I wouldn't include Shinobi, as it plays more like 2D beat-em-ups like Ninja Warriors or Dragon Ninja.

Mystic Warriors (same gameplay to Sunset Riders) and Ninja Spirit still qualify, I reckon. In Ninja Spirit you can switch between 4 weapons (like in Contra: Hard Corps) and your grappling hook weapon is a bit like Browny's yo-yo (only not as powerful).

This genre stuff gets a bit nit-picky, though. It's like metal fans arguing whether a band is doom metal, sludge metal, or stoner metal.

[Obiwanshinobi]

In Ninja Spirit you can switch between 4 weapons (like in Contra: Hard Corps) and your grappling hook weapon is a bit like Browny's yo-yo (only not as powerful).

It's a kusarigama, not grappling hook. Fully powered up with full set of shadow clones it clears the sceen with half circle and deflects most projectiles. The reason why I don't think about that game as a run 'n' gun is that it's all about kusarigama for me, which doesn't feel like a shooty weapon at all.

[DocHauser]

In Ninja Spirit you can switch between 4 weapons (like in Contra: Hard Corps) and your grappling hook weapon is a bit like Browny's yo-yo (only not as powerful).

It's a kusarigama, not grappling hook. Fully powered up with full set of shadow clones it clears the sceen with half circle and deflects most projectiles. The reason why I don't think about that game as a run 'n' gun is that it's all about kusarigama for me, which doesn't feel like a shooty weapon at all.

Ah, I bow to your superior Ninja-knowledge.

Browny's yo-yo weapon isn't very shooty either, and it's also more powerful than the other weapons, which is why I guess some people feel like it's almost cheating to pick Browny

[MadScientist]

Mystic Warriors? Is that an arcade release?

so going by Rob's definition, which I agree upon:
-You will not be a car.
-You can shoot and run simultaneously.
-You can shoot in more than one direction while running.
-Stages are linear.

Yes, it's an arcade release. And it fits with all those criteria, so I don't see why you couldn't call it a run 'n gun. OK, so you start with shuriken rather than with a 'gun', but one of the power ups is an auto-firing laser.

[wiNteR]

To be fair, I personally don't find the run and gun distinction to be useful enough. In other words, it feels too restrictive. I understand why people use this term - just like the term hack and slash platformer is used sometimes. But, when it comes to playing, I wouldn't want to restrict myself when there are so many quality arcade and console platform games out there.

[JoshF]

Rooster from Wonder 3 is a Run Gun Jump & Fun because there are pixels around Lou's hand pixels that look like a gun. Daimakaimura, a game with essentially the same mechanics and stage structure is NOT a Run Gun Jump & Fun because there are no such pixels, and it looks like Arthur throws things with his hands pixels.

Call them Action Shooters. The cool thing about this term is that it tells you the two genres it mixes instead of trying to be cute.

As for the best games? Well, Metal Slug 4 is better than the best Action Shooter that isn't a Metal Slug game so you could picture my top ten list. Maybe Dolphin Blue, Demon Front or Hard Corps Uprising are in there but I haven't had enough/any time with them.

[Drum]

Yeah, what? Since when is a Run 'n Gun a sidescrolling action game? Is any sidescroller where you shoot a projectile a run n' gun? I thought we were talking about Contra, Alien Soldier, Gunstar Heroes, Sunset Riders, Metal Slug, etc instead of slow stuff like Assault Suit Leynos, Son Son, Alisia Dragoon, etc. I think a lot of people are getting mixed up here. I cannot compare something like Shinobi to the frantic gameplay of Metal Slug.

Alisia Dragoon has really, really fast gameplay - especially compared to Metal Slug, which is the slowest and most deliberate game you listed. I guess AD can feel slower than it is because the pause-to-select-subweapons thing interrupts the flow (something they should've left behind with Thexder 2), but Alisia really pumps her thighs. As an international Thexder champ, it was tough to adjust to the fact that Alisia won't turn into a jet no matter how hard you try, so the mobility seemed off at first, but that's a personal thing.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Metal Slug has got more sprites and sound effects than Shinobi, therefore may seem busier according to your senses, but is kill rate and moving forward in Metal Slug particulary fast? Pacing in such games is usually as fast as your skills allow it to be, but Metal Slug games tend to slow things down every now and then for the heck of spectacle. This and the controls that cannot be too tight at 30 fps Metal Slug runs at turn me down these days. Even Ex-Ranza (also running at 30 fps) felt more responsive last time I played it.
P.S. Just realised that bug-like mecha design of Ex-Ranza and Einhänder was probably inspired by Act-Fancer.

[JoshF]

The scrolling locks so you have to shoot things instead of just avoiding or easily bulldozing popcorn enemies. This is unlike Ex-Ranza where you can beat the desert, jungle, and skyscraper stages in less than a minute with a simple strategy and barely any dodging.

[Paradigm]

I can't believe so many of you don't actually understand what a run 'n gun is. Hint: Super Metroid isn't one.

Alisia Dragoon has really, really fast gameplay - especially compared to Metal Slug, which is the slowest and most deliberate game you listed.

You just don't get it.