Ramblings from Shmup stinkers thread

[rocketassistedkea]

(split the whole art/games discussion from Shmup stinkers at Skykid's request to keep things "clean and on point" /mod)

Have you played Under Defeat? It's like an updated TEII...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6oOaHdSmzc[/quote]


Saw a youtube of that [had actually seen it before, a review by the always amusing Xoxac];...that has to feature THE most smashing explosions I've yet seen....but it's lacking what makes TE2 stand out. These being, for me;
a)The way nature gets in your way of your guns...so tear it all down! Even more fun than causing irresponsible forest fires, and carpet-bombing cattle in Raiden 2...b
Which conspires with;

b)...the way your fire only travels part-way up the screen, forcing you in close-esp if blocked by i.e hedgerows/poor villagers.

c) just the whole sensation of being down-in-the-mud, with a claustrophobic feel. UD's wide-open, like 99.8% of vertical scrollers. That that there's anything WRONG with that...but there's still room for some kind of remake. Im guessing, if it were to be a home-job...that designing the engine, would be the hard part; as all the interactive scenery would probably require something quite special.

Taking that; and just doing something better/more contemporary/more imaginative with your hitbox and flak patterns/style/quantity.

Hey, just to cause trouble here...but saw a video of an absolutely GORGEOUS shmup; 'Border Down', on Dreamcast. Such a subtle and beautiful use of colour...looks like it plays a bit like TFIV/V.
Anyways...this drummed home to me; how garish Cave games look in comparison. Even the 'realistic' ones like; DOJ. I mean, if I were to paint landscapes using the same kind of colour key Cave use...I'd be accused [rightly]; of painting kitsch. I know they don't have high/low art distinctions in Japan [or much of Asia]...but that could be hurting them in the West. Treasure have a much more sophisticated understanding of colour. It's like the artists at Cave don't understand how colour works, or just don't care...or perhaps it's a desperate plea to get noticed by teenage girls? I partly suspect that's why they often/usually substitute fighterjetships, for purple transvestite fairys, slaying hobgoblins, jack-o-lanterns, and fruit. In that case...they should'nt be half-arsed about it; and should include a soundtrack by Snow Patrol, and Bieber.
What do I mean about colour? Well...Border Down's one example....colour's one of these thing's that's relative, i.e; even a panzer/German/battleship/slug grey, can be colourful if; a) it's in relation to something even more 'colourless', b) you break the grey up into the delicate tertiary colours that compose it, i.e stare at a grey leaden sky for long enough, and you'll start to see the greens/mauves/lilacs e.t.c that compose the grey, and c)you use your strongest colour sparingly-as that's your 'key'. I.e, red laser fire looks more vibrant against a grey background, than over bright purple. The colour of an English forest is strongest after rain, compared to a Morroccan sunset...where everythings bleached out, to the point of being near monochrome.
The best example in game-form I can think, that I've seen; is Pilotwings 64 [Nintendo have some truely masterfull artists]...that's the game that proved to me that resolution doesn't really matter, except for making things out at distance. Get close to the ground...and it resembles an impressionist painting; EVERYTHING is composed of little blocks of colour...which then spin/scale/rotate/some kind of trippy anti-aliasing effect, which makes the edges shimmer...like the semi-blended edges of a Corot painting [I reckon he's the best landscape painter who's ever lived, for what it's worth....the way his edges shimmer, as well as using these blocks of colour, also conveys heat rising from the earth.]
Of course, we all know that Cave games are great...

Anyway, I've probably made some of you cry....so I'll leave it there;0)

"But Cave are the BESTEST [sob]."

Z

[CptRansom]

What the fuck did I just read? O.o

[DocHauser]

I know they don't have high/low art distinctions in Japan [or much of Asia]...but that could be hurting them in the West. Treasure have a much more sophisticated understanding of colour. It's like the artists at Cave don't understand how colour works, or just don't care...or perhaps it's a desperate plea to get noticed by teenage girls? What do I mean about colour? Well...Border Down's one example....colour's one of these thing's that's relative, i.e; even a panzer/German/battleship/slug grey, can be colourful if; a) it's in relation to something even more 'colourless', b) you break the grey up into the delicate tertiary colours that compose it, i.e stare at a grey leaden sky for long enough, and you'll start to see the greens/mauves/lilacs e.t.c that compose the grey, and c)you use your strongest colour sparingly-as that's your 'key'. I.e, red laser fire looks more vibrant against a grey background, than over bright purple.
Z

Not a great argument there, rock. Treasure are Japanese as well. The makers of Border Down, G.rev, are also Japanese. For that matter, Twin Eagle II is Japanese too. Along with pretty much every other good shmup ever made.

[Drum]

Border Down looks like an abandoned car park building in some eastern bloc country. I can't think of a Cave game that doesn't look better than that.

[BuckoA51]

I nominate most games made by the Shoot Em Up Construction Kit, on either Amiga or C64.

[Skykid]

He has a point actually. I always thought Cave could have done better with some of their visual design, they proved they could turn out wonderful looking stuff with Esprade, DDP etc. it's just their pre-rendering sometimes leaves something to be desired. I would blame the hardware, but then I saw Espgaluda II, so it's really just down to the art production team.

[Drum]

Not saying their stuff is good, just saying it's better than BD. DDP looks great and Guwange is too (with the qualifier 'for a pre-rendered game'). They probably just can't afford to make polygonal stuff so their lighting will look forever bad, and pixel art is just too painstaking nowadays.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Border Down looks like an abandoned car park building in some eastern bloc country. I can't think of a Cave game that doesn't look better than that.

[rocketassistedkea]

Not a great argument there, rock. Treasure are Japanese as well. The makers of Border Down, G.rev, are also Japanese. For that matter, Twin Eagle II is Japanese too. Along with pretty much every other good shmup ever made.

Actually Doc; it's a pretty solid argument. Just about everything I've seen from Cave, aesthetically IS kitcsh. Now I know everyone has an opinion about art...and that's great, really. I'd never deny someone their opinion, and I always enjoy hearing it. But we also don't live in a socialist utopia/hell...where everyone and everything's equal [even though they're patently not.] I have a major in Art-Theory, and am 18 years self-taught in a Naturalist style...there's no one in the country who can do what I can do [and that was planned, by the way-I always intended to have a niche of my own, by choosing an art-style that was so difficult...other artists would simply give-up....and to simply not give up myself]. Guess what? It worked.

I'm sorry if I upset some people's sensibilities here....but I DO know what kitsch is.....and that's pretty much everything I've seen from Cave, aesthetically. I mean, one of the hallmarks of kitsch is; the use of colour purely because it's pretty [tee hee, giggle]...hello??? This is what Cave do ALL the time...they use the most lurid pinks, lay it next to the brightest purple...like it was straight from the tube. There's no subtlety, no attempt at delicate tertiarys or greys. If Sony/Microsoft have turned their nose up at Cave products...that's not entirely without some merit, you know? I mean, I don't believe either have turned their noses up at anything by Treasure...Microsoft even REQUESTED Treasure, after turning down Cave [that pissed me off too; as I'd rather have gameplay over graphics...but I COULD see where they were coming from, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't just about HD.] Their [Treasure's] use of colour [and tone]; makes what Cave do look like the work of a high-school student. The difference is high/low art. Fine art [almost], vs Hello Kitty. A first-rate, vs a second-rate artist. And yes Doc, I know they're all Japanese companys;0)
Treasure e.t.c have a much better handle on colour, simply because they have better colourists, I reckon. Art isn't a democracy...some people have the ability, some don't. Some people have taste, some don't [THAT comment, may make some people foam at the mouth...but it's true].

There are first, and second-rate artists, just as there are first, and second-rate intellects; [i.e, to quote Immanuel Kant the: "sign of the second-rate intellect, is he [or she]; who only accepts that which doesn't upset their personal sensibilities." That's verbatim. In other words; to only study/agree with that which agrees with you, and doesn't upset you. There's more second-rate intellects in the world, than first-rate, much as there are only a handfull of geniuses [example, I've only met ONE person who I'm convinced, beyond a shadow-of-a-doubt; is a genius...and now he's dead;0[ That's; Dennis Dutton by the way, founder of: Arts and Letters Daily....THE best website in the world, and also my Art-Theory lecturer. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself;0)

The best thing I say, in Cave's defence; is perhaps they've been over-influenced by their own indigenous art [Japanese prints], without looking overseas for inspiration too [i.e; European painting...which Treasure, Nintendo, and G. Rev clearly have]. But even then...there's a subtlety to Japanese prints, in spite of the high colour-key; that Cave simply don't have. So I don't think that argument holds much water.

P.s; maybe Border Down wasn't the best example...they could have done MUCH better; if they had simply broken their greys down into blocks of colour....thus keeping colour and interest in the greys [that's when you use your tertiary colours, by the way].....so they don't really understand tertiary colour, but when colour [primary/secondary] happens in that game; it's MUCH more vibrant than anything I've seen by Cave. And that's down to artistry/artistic choices, more than the flashy 3d lighting engine. A first-rate artist will do a much better job with a palette of 5 colours, than a second-rate one will do with 14...that's like a direct comparison between G.Rev, and Cave. Even better, take that first-rate artist, and give them a palette of 14 colours...there you have Nintendo, and Treasure. But then...why the surprise? The difference between high/low art is intellectual...Treasure tend to make the more intellectual shmups.

Regards

Z

[RNGmaster]

tl;dr

[Skykid]

Keep in mind Hiroshi Iuchi was a graphic designer prior to joining Treasure. He had a head start.

[DocHauser]

Their [Treasure's] use of colour [and tone]; makes what Cave do look like the work of a high-school student. The difference is high/low art. Z

Some other Treasure games: Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, Bangai-O, Wario World, Mischief Makers, Dynamite Headdy, McDonald's Treasure Land, Silhouette Mirage, Stretch Panic, Tiny Toon Adventures, Astro Boy: Omega Factor.

They're all pretty bright and colourful, aren't they? Some of them are just (or more) garish than anything Cave have done. Plus, they seem to outnumber Treasure's more subdued-coloured games by some margin. So, it seems that they don't have a problem with making either kind of game. The issue mainly seems to be your own personal preference for the type of style you like to see.

"I haven't seen this much brown and grey since I played a first-person shooter."

[Drum]

Art is all about not giving a fuck, if it's about anything at all (and it probably isn't). Start getting into fine art/popular art non-sense and codifying what things should or should not look like, as if it doesn't come down to the smallest decisions and judgements per piece is the worst thing. Some of the most unimpeachably excellent-looking shooters (or paintings for that matter) look like somebody puked a box of crayons all over.

We need a new thread to talk about the best-looking shooters. I vote mr. rocket starts it, and we can all take turns telling each other how wrong we are.

[DocHauser]

We need a new thread to talk about the best-looking shooters.

I vote for Explosive Breaker. Oh yeah.

[ED-057]

I haven`t seen Border Down, or any Treasure shmup aside from RSG (which was pretty colorful as I recall) so I`m not sure what this comparison is about. But I think the "what is art?" thread has already been done... (check the worst threads ever topic, it is probably linked there

[rocketassistedkea]

Actually, as a side-note, that's something worth repeating: check out

'aldaily.com'...that's 'arts and letters daily'.

It's mission; is to collect all the best intellectual discourse/debate/essays, from all different disciplines, and present it in one place. I don't know if there's anything about shmups...but there's something there for everyone.

Dennis Dutton was actually an American, from California...who moved to NZ, and started lecturing [after spending 3 yrs studying Papua New Guinean tribal art, whilst living with the tribes...he only left; when a colleague got shot dead]. He also wrote the recent book; 'The Art Instinct', which is basically a summary of what he taught at uni. An Evolutionary Psychology, approach to art...one of it's prerequisistes [which it proves] is that beauty is cross-cultural and universal....not the whim of someone's opinion. Of course people DO have their own opinions/beauty is in the eye of the beholder...but look beneath the surface; and you'll find universals. That in Japan, and much of Asia; they don't have the same high/low art distinction as in the West...doesn't mean they can't appreciate higher beauty. They do, and can...it's merely a cultural difference; which makes them happilty mix high and low art together.
Dennis even appeared in TIME magazine, [sort of] defending videogames...he'll never agree that videogames can be fine-art (there's reasons for that, i.e; Fine Art is; "purposefullness without a purpose"...illustration/videogames/dance music all have a purpose, i.e; to illustrate clearly/provide entertainment/get you dancing. Dance music as an example, if taken out of it's element [the dance floor], and just contemplated on it's own...usually isn't that interesting)....he argues, that Video Games don't have to be Fine art; "isn't being fun enough..."? Yes, he was a gamer, too.

I think that's grammatically the worst sentence I've ever written!

I hear you Doc...Treasure are pretty inconsistant. I think that's just a cultural difference; they mix high/low art together-and don't think twice about it.

A grey, handled well; should be just as full of colour/colour variety as the brighter areas. I don't like flat/dead greays/browns either;0) I don't even use blacks or browns; pure colour, mixed a certain way/s...will give you those.

It helps to have a head start, like Hiroshi Iuchi...keep in mind, and I'm proof of this (I spent years staring at colourless things/clouds/shadows in bushes, trying to spot the colour@ cafes....people must have thought I was crazy); that you CAN teach yourself, to be a good colourist. It just takes a little while. If you want to instantly spot the colour that's always there [although it is somewhat exagerated]; take LSD [actually don't...I reckon it's the most dangerous drug out there, as you OD once....and it'll take your mind, forever.] OR...just spend 2 or three years merely looking;0) 2 or 3 yrs is nothing; in the grand scheme of life.

The point of the "second-rate intellect" and "first/second-rate artist" distinction, isn't to crush people and put them in their place...what would that achieve? It's rather; to get people to notice these things; so they can improve themselves-if that's important to them. Considering there's only a 30% difference between the IQ of a smart, and not so smart person [geniuses are another level altogether, almost like a seperate sub-species]...you really CAN do anything, if you put your mind to it...in the right way. By; "in the right way", I mean: taking advantage of the wealth of knowledge, that's been handed down to us from the past...some of it from geniusses [who are far smarter than we'll ever be, and have dedicated their lives, no less]. Personal opinion next to that; is superficial, and prone to lead to bad-habits...but that's just my "opinion", ha ha.

P.s; there's tons of kitsch I enjoy...I even bought a Barbara Striesand cd, just for one song [shhh.]
PS2; DRUM...if everything's art; nothing's art. There needs to be distinctions, some of us take it quite seriously. In fact...isn't it increadible; how art can cause such disagreement? You'd think people wouldn't care...but they do. Funni, huh? It's just one of those things. People don't get that upset over gardening tips...b

Next controversial topic...Cultural Relativism, vs....the real world.

Or mabe just; TE2...total turd? Or; why hasn't someone made a sequel, with none of the more obvious mistakes?

Z

[Drum]

I'm not saying everything's art or nothing's art, just that art is a confused, loaded word that is mostly useless and a lot of the attempts to clarify/codify it have made it worse. Further, a lot of what you're saying is just wrong. If I thought it was all relative, I would say it's all relative - I just think you're wrong and your arguments are no good. Hope that clears things up! :)

Re: Twin Eagle 2: They did make a sequel - it's called Donpachi. Kind of a misstep but hey.

[rocketassistedkea]

I'm not saying everything's art or nothing's art, just that art is a confused, loaded word that is mostly useless and a lot of the attempts to clarify/codify it have made it worse. Further, a lot of what you're saying is just wrong. If I thought it was all relative, I would say it's all relative - I just think you're wrong and your arguments are no good. Hope that clears things up!

Re: Twin Eagle 2: They did make a sequel - it's called Donpachi. Kind of a misstep but hey.

We can find common cause for agreement here; I don't think a seperate thread on art-in-videogames, is a good idea. It just causes divisions, which can quickly spiral downwards into getting/taking things personally. No one wants that. In fact...art; is probably the most difficult problem in all of philosophy. I just felt the need to bring the topic up, but I've said what I felt I had to say...;0)
Even in Classical oil-painting technique, the practical side, which you'd think would have some consistency...half of it contradicts the other half. And that's a huge problem.
Regarding the theoretical side, unless you have balls of cast iron, or/and are a genius [which I'm not, though Dennis was]; it's just not worth getting heavily-involved in the whole debate.
I DO recommend his book to you though;0) If you dislike it, as some will [after all, evo psyche is VERY controversial, so much so...it ran into a freight-train known as feminism, and had to go quietly underground for around 30 yrs....'till reermerging in the '90's;] you can always sell it on ebay...;0) You'll find a buyer.

Art-Theory could be quite stressfull sometimes; as you'd have half the class all but stabbing each other, in fits of foaming rage. Knife fight! Much like how people tend to gravitate towards the right or left-politically, seemingly from birth [the evo psyche argument is, it's genetic]; so people tend to be split down the middle about art-and that doesn't mean the other half's wrong, either. As in life, the right answer's; probably somewhere near the middle. A kind of grey-middle; that hasn't been figured out yet. An example being; put up your hand, if you think the success of coke can be attributed to; a): Coca Cola's marketing, or, b): something innate to Coke, that just...tastes good. That split the class too.

I shouldn't have presumed to know your opinion on relitivism in art, sorry about that Drum. My bad...;0)

Moving on...as it's hard to make a truely bad arcade shmup [though I really don't understand the praise any version of 'Lightning Fighters' gets], but it's not so hard to do on a home system....what's a shmup [or game] that truely surprised you by either; a) blowing your mind, b)was really good...when you thought it would probably suck, or c) sucked, when you thought it might be good. Or for any number of other reasons...b
Just something surprising.

P.S; no point me posting any high-scores; 'cause I typically just avoid collecting all the gold and stuff. For what it's worth...I just finished 1945 on very hard;0) Which then unlocked an AWESOME second loop...which I got to enjoy for around 10 seconds....before being being blown away [twice]. SOOO much fun...but that was it.
I thought I might have unlocked a new difficulty level, alas...;0( I just play shmups for the adrenaline rush.

Regards

Z

[Paradigm]

If only Icycalm wasn't banned, I reckon you and him would get along quite well rocketassistedkea

put up your hand, if you think the success of coke can be attributed to; a): Coca Cola's marketing, or, b): something innate to Coke, that just...tastes good.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Surely the correct answer is both.

[rocketassistedkea]

What happened to Icycalm...? I'm guessing he didn't live up to his name...
Sounds like a top guy, anyway...b

I noticed someone on here doesn't like the Thunderforce series...so I'll say....TF3/Thunder spirits [is there really a difference, besides slowdown...?]; bitterly dissappointed me. Not that I'm saying it was a stinker...just that it surprised me/and I felt let down.
That WAS after being thoroughly spoilt by TF4, though...which utterly blew me away, like only R-Type [arcade], Xexex [ditto] and...possibly GV have, since. Oh yeah, and Salamander [acd]. I never imagined the MegaDrive was capable of such feats...I think I counted 13 [or even 23?]! layers of parallax clouds/mountains, colour grading from dawn-dusk, with 3-screens worth of vertical screen movement...awesome weapons, loads going on-at breakneck pace....with all with no [real] slowdown.
In fact, as I was a kid back then, and want to see it with fresh eyes; playing TF3 once more, is very high on my MAME priority list [though not as high as TFV, which sounds 'rockin, kind of like Border Down]...once I get broadband, and can actually do something with my shiny new computer, that's currently collecting dust!
One style of shmup alone, if it's all you have; will never satisfy a shmuphead. I remember, as much as I gushed over TF4, after a while of playing only that...I did begin to feel like it wasn't a 'real' shmup...and craved something slower, like Gradius.
It was also an increadibly difficult game to begin with-which I enjoyed, but after so many times of 1ccing it on the hardest setting...I kind of lost my respect for it. If you were fast enough...you could dodge most everything with ease, without needing the precision of an R-Type/Gradius. I think it might have been around that time; that I sold my MD for a SNES...dumbest thing I did. The game I really wanted to play, Axelay...was never even released in NZ! Oh well...at least I owned and loved R-Type 3;0)

Anywho, there's a new shmup from G.Rev on '360, that looks and sounds promising; Seisou Kouki Strania...sounds like some kind of Japanese biscuit....but apparently it's a shmup.
G.Rev seem to be quite innovative; so there's nothing to say that it'll follow their previous TF/Borderdown format. Just reading up on it now, but some of the fire you're meant to avoid; looks far too difficult/intricate/screen covering, to be twitch-based.

Z

[rocketassistedkea]

put up your hand, if you think the success of coke can be attributed to; a): Coca Cola's marketing, or, b): something innate to Coke, that just...tastes good.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Surely the correct answer is both.[/quote]

Oops, forgot to answer that. The right answer is both;0)
But the question was; you HAD to pick one or the other...just to see where you 'lean' from. Your gut instinct, if you like. Evo psyche, besides upsetting a lot of people ['tis extraordinarily un PC, based [partly, about 50%] in genetics/evolution, and sometimes downright ugly]....is one of the new post-modern disciplines, based around conscilience [the unification of knowledge]. I.e, it's a mix of; Psychology, Geography, Archeology, Biology, and Anthropology. Some of the most promising breakthroughs in medicine for the near-future, are from, i.e; teams of biologists-that are being led by a Physical Engineer. It's a new way to look at things. Conscilience...one of my favourite words;0)
Like; 'Railgun', in TF4...

[Skykid]

Requested a thread split.

[rocketassistedkea]

What's a thread split? I've already stated...I don't think a seperate "what is art" thread is a good idea, and I'm sure most would agree....look at the friction it causes.
I simply had something to say...so I've said it.

For what it's worth Drum, I had a look through some of your posts; and see you're working on a Gradius style shooter...it sounds truely excellent: I'd play it!;0)
Maybe because of this, you've taken some of what I say personally, perhaps? I like to think I have a good set on morals on me; thus would never have a go at the work of a non-established/hence vulnerable artist. I'd only be supportive. But an established artist/company...is fair game. I think Cave's lolitafairyhobgoblins, 'painted' in such lurid colours...could be hurting them in the west. Every now and again...fine. But ALL the time? I'm certain it's hurting them, or at least has hurt them in the past [Microsoft.]
This new game by ex Taito guys G.Rev; Seisu Kouki...is in stark contrast aesthetically; subdued backgrounds, against which can be laid the brightest laser-fire and multi-coloured lightshow you can imagine....

Regards

Z

[Skykid]

What's a thread split? I've already stated...I don't think a seperate "what is art" thread is a good idea, and I'm sure most would agree....look at the friction it causes.
I simply had something to say...so I've said it.

I'd like to keep the thread clean and on point if possible.

[devilmanozzy]

My god man, rocketassistedkea stop typing so much. Your making this thread unreadable. here is a word for you ..... Verbosity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbosity

[Kollision]

I gave up reading his posts altogether. It's just too painful.

[devilmanozzy]

I gave up reading his posts altogether. It's just too painful.

That is cause his posts cause eye cancer.

[drei :3]

There's no subtlety, no attempt at delicate tertiarys or greys.

I don't exactly yearn for subtle bullet colours, though I agree that the CAVE guys should try a less cheesy style.

I found Border Down really ugly, not at all because of colour usage, but the models, especially your own ship, and the HUD.

I agree that there are some underlying absolutes in art. There are some cultural differences which colours represent which sex and stuff like that, languages have differences in how precise they are when it comes to some colours and as far as I know these differences correlate a bit with how realistic kids are with their colours when they draw stuff. Despite all these differences, optical illusions work everywhere, and this must have biological reasons. Art education should start with how eyes work, biologically, physically. Relativism in art is a godsend for all those who suck at it.

As for evolution and evolutionary psychology, I suggest Steven Rose.

[charlie chong]

i don't think use of bright colours automatically makes a game "kitsch"
i would say pink sweets is the most avant-garde shooter i've ever played in terms of mechanics and that has bright colours

[Lloyd Mangram]

Well...somebody sure likes; jamming in semicolons and commas, where they don't belong...as well as ellipses; too!