Armchair dev: Make the next entry in your fave series.

[Drum]

Been playing a ton of Gradius games lately, and the news of Gradius PS3 being cancelled, Gradius Arc being a cellphone strategy game and the apparent terribleness of Otomedius (I didn't play it, as it looked too terrible), and the muted-to-negative response Rebirth got (it's pretty good and better than some of the main entries in the series, but it's hardly ambitious) got me thinking about What Needs To Be Done. So I decided to scribble up some ideas and turn it into a thread where people can add any old shit about any old series.

Here goes:

* Gradius Gaiden is still the best game in the series with the most interesting gameplay, so just steal everything that made it awesome - upgrade bar editing, cool ship types (though they could be improved), fun weapons.

* In 87, Wizball stole Gradius' upgrade system so it's time for payback: Steal the way you can choose to make an upgrade permanent so you have it when you die.
One of the most notoriously shitty things about Gradius is that it's a one-life game. This is less true of Gradius Gaiden because you can tool around in edit mode to give yourself some security, but it still exists. So I thought maybe at the end of each level, if you complete some objective, you can choose one to permanently upgrade. Maybe in-game some way, as having a menu interrupt is a bit crap.

* Steal Salamander 2's kamikaze option missiles that you have to go fetch instead of having a button for dicking around with your Options like in Gradius V.
Or I guess have one of your selectable ships use the Option missiles. They are fun.

* No boring, lifeless grey 2.5D graphics like Gradius V.
Gradius in general has a kind of meh art style outside Gaiden despite the occasional bit of inspiration, so it's time to make it look rad.

* Some form of homing laser, they are awesome.

* Don't even give players the option to have a seperate missile button.
There should never have been one.

* No unskippable cutscenes in the middle of the game, fuck you Treasure. Seriously, fuck you.

* Make the game pretty short. 40 minutes or so. Keep it snappy too - there really doesn't need to be any single moment where the player can't do anything or shoot something for more than 2 seconds tops. I am talking: No load times, no waiting for the hi score table to come up, nothing like that.
If you insist on following the more levels = better philosophy, make selectable routes or levels you can only reach if you achieve certain goals like Sexy Parodius.

* Goofy secrets like the NES version of Gradius. Level warps, secret bonuses etc.
Especially if discovering these increases rank.

* Do something when you loop the upgrade bar. Something unrelated to score.
I figured instead of having a bomb every X number of power-up items, which is just pointless, give the player the ability to create their own bomb - the last power-up item you get when you loop the upgrade bar turns blue and explodes after a couple of seconds.

* Some sort of more interesting scoring/rank system I guess, but no bullshit that encourages you to play like a retard (see: Ketsui, Battle Garegga etc. - basically all the games this board likes)

* Don't be too reverent to the older games in the series in terms of levels/bosses. Does anybody really want to play another Moai/Crystal/Bubble/Volcano level? Though I guess a crystal Moai level where volcanoes shoot out bubbles would be ok, to get that shit out of your system.
If you gotta have Core Ships, make them look totally bananas and not totally boring and dumb. If you have a speed level, make it fun. I like the speed level from Gokujyou Parodius best.

* As little memorisation as possible ie. generally nice open levels with readable threats/patterns that are tough to deal with once you've identified them as opposed to dumb memoriser bullshit out of nowhere like in R-Type and the lesser moments of the Gradius games.
Also, really let the player know when their shield has taken a hit. Maybe even have bullets change to a vivid red if they get close to your ship if you insist on having those itty bitty Gradius bullets.

* The ability to play as an Option thief, especially in 2 player mode.

* No ugly font in the weapon select screen. I can't play Gradius IV because of that (plus all the other reasons I can't play Gradius IV).

* Make it clear what the orange power-up pods are supposed to be. I have no idea.

* No bullet hell.


There you go, I just created the perfect Gradius game - please lemme know how perfect you think is is, and now you can go crazy designing that sequel to Super Real Darwin you always wanted or whatever.

[Drum]

Man, that is a long first post.

[CptRansom]

* Some sort of more interesting scoring/rank system I guess, but no bullshit that encourages you to play like a retard (see: Ketsui, Battle Garegga etc. - basically all the games this board likes)

[Drum]

It wasn't supposed to be funny :(

Thought of something else G6 needs: More variables/slight randomisation. Just enough so the game doesn't become rote. When you are flying around in the warm-up space sections, it's silly that the bad guys always come at you the same way and you can destroy them all before they even put their noses on-screen. Actually, most shmups need that but if you can't do it right I guess you shouldn't try at all.
Somebody please come in here and tell me all about how randomisation is the devil when playing for score so I can murder your arguments and wear your skin EDIT: and so this thread keeps getting bumped because I put a lot of time into that first post and apparently nobody cares.

[ED-057]

Yeah I don`t know about randomization. Some games throw different stuff at you depending what you`re doing, and I don`t just mean rank but like how Feveron sends more enemies if you kill them more quickly. Maybe Zanac was like that too, not exactly random but depending on certain variables (what weapon is equipped, etc.) and I think that would be fine. Just NOT like Xexex...

What about checkpoints: yay or nay?

[Drum]

Yeah, mayyyybe a ton of rank-based variables would be better. But Gradius is at its best when you are strategising second to second as well as developing a meta strategy - random variables (or some other kind) ensure that's what the game is about - mastering a system as opposed to familiarising yourself with what the designer had for breakfast the morning he placed the enemies. Do not understand why so many shmuppers think that is the pinnacle of design.

I am aok with checkpoints. Actually, I had an idea that you could pass the wreckage of your previous ship and salvage an Option from it or something (bit like retrieving your options in G5) but didn't mention it because it would look like I'd been thinking way too much about this ( :( :( :( ). I guess checkpoints or no checkpoints could be based on whether you select automatic or manual (like Sexy/Gokujyou Parodius), or difficulty level. Could affect rank too.

[NzzpNzzp]

Man, half your points are cool things I can agree with, and the other half are like what the hell is wrong with this guy. Stay away from my missile button you weirdo.


Also I wanna make a joke about how Gradius needs to have flying girls to be a real modern shooter except Konami already did that. This sucks.

[Drum]

Missile button stays? You can't back that up. You're fronting.

EDIT: Maybe it could stay if you could actually do something interesting with it, like delay missile explosions or guide them or something. Right now it's just useless/busywork.

And I would not object to Hikaru being a hidden character as she is a saucy minx.

[NzzpNzzp]

It's useful sometimes if you're using spread bombs and you don't have a full set of options. S'nice to have them ready to go as soon as you press instead of having to wait for them to drop and then explode if they're in the wrong spot, 'cause that can take a while. And like y'know when you fight Juggler Core and he shoots those rockets at the top and bottom of the screen? Those shoot suicide bullets sometimes if you hit them, and those suck. You totally need a missile button, for that one boss in one game. Totally need one.

And Otomedius actually did have a semi guided missile type. They went up/down as long as you held down shoot, and then went forwards as soon as you let go. Just they got rid of the missile button in that game, so they're kinda annoying to use.

[Drum]

I rest my case.

I was thinking about this thread at work and I had an idea for a level while I was bored and running on ritalin. It's a big Option thief nest - you can see them flying through tunnels in the walls carrying Options like ants carrying sugar granules. Now you finally get to find out wtf they were doing with all those Options they stole. I figured the stage boss could be the Option thief queen sitting on a giant mound of Options. Option thieves hatch out of the Options like eggs to fly at you and steal your shit, and Options rise off the pile and shoot various Laser/Double attacks from throughout the series history.
I was pretty bored.

[S20-TBL]

Dude, why don't you try teaming up with BPzeBanshee or somebody from the Development forums and make a Salamander type game using your ideas? Speculation and wishlist threads are fun and all, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And we don't get no eating if we don't have no pudding.

[Drum]

There is no way I am making a Gradius fangame - I could never top G-Type. I *am* working on a game though - maybe I'll post a thread on the dev board some time, but it's only a shmup at a stretch.

[drei :3]

Some good ideas.

Adding a bit of randomness and getting it right would be a PITA. The only way to make sure this doesn't screw up scoring I can imagine is to have some very short segments (like 3 seconds) where one attack pattern for that segment is randomly selected from a set of thoroughly playtested ones.

Suppose a part of a stage is made of some always identical segments and some random segments, and for each random segment there are 5 unique different scenarios to randomly select from. To test the flow, to check how the transition between a fixed segment and a random segment works, you have to check the 5 possible transitions, for each transition between random segments you would have to check 25 possible transitions. To make sure that alternative segments don't differ much in challenge and scoring opportunities and that they also fit in with the flow of the stage without increasing exponentially the amount of developing and testing, random segments would have to be very short and any random segment would have to be between non-random ones.

[ptoing]

Most Bullethell games have some random seed stuff. Mainly for spam patterns (Think DDP boss 1 first patter, or boss 2 last pattern)
But having slightly random enemy entrance points would be fair enough as well as long as you have not anal chain based scoring.
Something a bit less random than in 1942 perhaps.

[Herr Schatten]

I rest my case.

I was thinking about this thread at work and I had an idea for a level while I was bored and running on ritalin. It's a big Option thief nest - you can see them flying through tunnels in the walls carrying Options like ants carrying sugar granules. Now you finally get to find out wtf they were doing with all those Options they stole. I figured the stage boss could be the Option thief queen sitting on a giant mound of Options. Option thieves hatch out of the Options like eggs to fly at you and steal your shit, and Options rise off the pile and shoot various Laser/Double attacks from throughout the series history.
I was pretty bored.

This is actually a terrific idea. I'd love to see that.

[Frederik]

I rest my case.

I was thinking about this thread at work and I had an idea for a level while I was bored and running on ritalin. It's a big Option thief nest - you can see them flying through tunnels in the walls carrying Options like ants carrying sugar granules. Now you finally get to find out wtf they were doing with all those Options they stole. I figured the stage boss could be the Option thief queen sitting on a giant mound of Options. Option thieves hatch out of the Options like eggs to fly at you and steal your shit, and Options rise off the pile and shoot various Laser/Double attacks from throughout the series history.
I was pretty bored.

This is actually a terrific idea. I'd love to see that.

Plus one.

This is the kind of self-reference that would work really well with Gradius. For example, one thing I loved in Gaiden was the giant Moai head bossfight - they really milked the easter island head idea for all it´s worth. And come to think of it, it´s a perfect symbol for all that´s wrong with Gradius V - since it´s completely missing any Moai. I mean, seriously, what the hell.

They Treasure-ized the series in all the wrong ways - what use are four options to pick up if I´m stuck with speed 1 during a bossfight which will get me killed in 4 seconds anyway? Gaiden really fixed the problem in the correct way, by making the powerup bar editable. It´s fun just toying around with it alone. In the end, Gradius V is a glorious, shining game that´s incredibly boring to play, which is a shame.

Treasure seems to almost always do this: Make one half of a game really fucking awesome and then screw the other half up in a way that almost ruins the game. Case in point: Gunstar Super Heroes on GBA - it is the absolutely best looking action game on the GBA, but it´s over after ten minutes and the bosses can´t even be bothered to fight back properly. (After Bangai Oh Sprits, though, all is forgotten. I mean, this game too feels kinda unfinished, but it´s still very cool.)

[Kollision]

no bullshit that encourages you to play like a retard (see: Ketsui, Battle Garegga etc. - basically all the games this board likes)

hahahaha
this made my day!

[Drum]

I rest my case.

I was thinking about this thread at work and I had an idea for a level while I was bored and running on ritalin. It's a big Option thief nest - you can see them flying through tunnels in the walls carrying Options like ants carrying sugar granules. Now you finally get to find out wtf they were doing with all those Options they stole. I figured the stage boss could be the Option thief queen sitting on a giant mound of Options. Option thieves hatch out of the Options like eggs to fly at you and steal your shit, and Options rise off the pile and shoot various Laser/Double attacks from throughout the series history.
I was pretty bored.

This is actually a terrific idea. I'd love to see that.

Plus one.

Thx ^_^

I had another idea for a seperate game mode (sort of a Gradius caravan) while I was at work tonight:

It's basically a procedurally generated speed level seperate from the main game. It starts out real slow and gradually ramps up A) over time B) as you kill dudes and C) as you power up.
You can slow down the scrolling significantly by getting power pods and selecting the '!' icon on the upgrade bar (which doesn't power you down or anything) - scrolling also slows to a crawl when you lose a life (which you can earn more of). Rank could be manipulated similarly.
I figured the 'maze' could procedurally throw out a bunch of classic Gradius crap at you - Zubs, Duckers, Moai, rebounding/splitting bubbles, Option thieves, regenerating pink goo walls (which would actually be easier to deal with if you keep the scrolling speed high), tentacles, closing doors, cannon fodder enemies etc.
There could also be Core bosses that intermittently show up to give you an ulcer and a big bonus if you can destroy them before they run away, as well as open areas with a few orange Zubs to give the player a break now and then, and opportunities to lock-in powerups like Wizball.
The different ship/shield combos would make the game play reeeeal different with different setups - Guard/Limit especially.
Lots of different stats would be recorded when you die, like score, max speed, average speed and there'd be online leaderboards for each of these things.
For some Blizzard-esque player manipulation, you could have random rewards that unlock things in other modes - hidden ships, advanced upgrade edit mode (like, being able to mix and match weapons from different ships), novelty laser/missile reskins, mirror mode, bullet hell mode, invisible bullet mode, reskins some elements with Parodius equivalents etc.
I guess I see it playing out like a Gradius roguelike meets Canabalt or whatever. I don't think I would play anything else ever again.
I don't know if it would be endless or not - I guess you could have an endless mode as well as a final boss + loop mode.

This is actually something I can see myself making after I finish up my current project. Maybe.

[Wonderbanana]

Silk Worm 3(D)

Concept:
With SWIV (Silk Worm In Vertical) The Sale's Curve took Tecmo's Silk Worm arcade game concept and changed the perspective to vertical. How about it this was updated to a 3D perspective / co-op game?

Detail:
Ok so firstly this wouldn't be a traditional shmup but a shmup inspired game and potentially a more on-rails type of game (Rez / Panzer Dragoon Orta).

One player could pilot the helicopter (think Ace Combat style but with a closer to ground concept or perhaps After Burner inspired). Up to two players could control the jeep - one driving, one gunning (think Halo's Warthog).

Probably not deep enough for full retail, more a download title for XBLA, PSN etc.

[Drum]

Silk Worm 3(D)

Concept:
With SWIV (Silk Worm In Vertical) The Sale's Curve took Tecmo's Silk Worm arcade game concept and changed the perspective to vertical. How about it this was updated to a 3D perspective / co-op game?

Detail:
Ok so firstly this wouldn't be a traditional shmup but a shmup inspired game and potentially a more on-rails type of game (Rez / Panzer Dragoon Orta).

One player could pilot the helicopter (think Ace Combat style but with a closer to ground concept or perhaps After Burner inspired). Up to two players could control the jeep - one driving, one gunning (think Halo's Warthog).

Probably not deep enough for full retail, more a download title for XBLA, PSN etc.

Well, there's always Fire and Forget! I remember playing that co-op with my sister on my dad's work pc in glorious cga graphics. I'm not sure if the jet player could actually die.

[BPzeBanshee]

Dude, why don't you try teaming up with BPzeBanshee or somebody from the Development forums and make a Salamander type game using your ideas? Speculation and wishlist threads are fun and all, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And we don't get no eating if we don't have no pudding.

Yay, I feel popular.
I can't say I'm much of an expert in Gradius-style horis/hybrids but once GMOSSE is finished and I have time to twiddle my thumbs (and this pain in my right hand stops before it ends up like RSI) I could certainly have a crack at such a project providing some proper design templates could be made to give me an idea as to what to code.

no bullshit that encourages you to play like a retard (see: Ketsui, Battle Garegga etc. - basically all the games this board likes)

hahahaha
this made my day!

I LOLed too, but in all fairness Drum has a point. I think Xeno Fighters R does a better job at this than the Raizing titles since there's no mystery involved with the goal - score well + survive = WIN.
If I had a clue as to how I'd go about it, I'd implement dynamic rank in GMOSSE.

Speaking of development stuff, I dont suppose this thread would be better off in the Development subforum?

[ptoing]

If I had a clue as to how I'd go about it, I'd implement dynamic rank in GMOSSE.

Should not be too hard I think. All you need is a some values which increase rank. Such as survival time for example or if you score a lot. And then some things that make that value go down, like bombing or dying.

And then you can just add a variable to things like speed of the bullets or amount of bullets in the patterns and such.

It should really not be a huge deal if you sit down and plan it out a bit.

[Wonderbanana]

Well, there's always Fire and Forget! I remember playing that co-op with my sister on my dad's work pc in glorious cga graphics. I'm not sure if the jet player could actually die.

Well I'll be damned; didn't even know this existed. Not quite what I had in mind though.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Steal Salamander 2's kamikaze option missiles that you have to go fetch instead of having a button for dicking around with your Options like in Gradius V.

That button (or, to be precise, the way it works with Type 2 lasers) is pretty much the most awesome thing about Gradus V. Similar button adds some spice to Zanac Special Version as well (yes, Zanac Special Version; no, not Zanac Neo).

Some sort of more interesting scoring/rank system I guess, but no bullshit that encourages you to play like a retard (see: Ketsui, Battle Garegga etc. - basically all the games this board likes)

Your firepower might be a reward for good performance. Some shmups did that in a way (point blanking stuff with Force charges your special attack in R-Type Delta, grazing the bullets makes your weapons stronger in Psyvariar and Shikigami no Shiro), but I'd like to play a shmup with chaining along the lines of Shinobi for the PS2 and GunValkyrie for the Xbox (where fast killing not only earns you high score, but also gives you abilities necessary to get the most out of the game). I didn't play GunValkyrie, but seems to me that some of its features wouldn't be out of place in the likes of Chelnov. As for Shinobi (PS2), well, now that's what I call chaining.
Devouring your enemies is also a feature I've yet to see in a shmup outside of Digital Devil Saga 2 (where the presentation of it is merely symbolical).

[ptoing]

Devouring your enemies is also a feature I've yet to see in a shmup outside of Digital Devil Saga 2 (where the presentation of it is merely symbolical).

I thought DDS2 is a RPG... Am I missing something ó_o?

The devouring thing would work well in a Kirby shmup. A kirby bullet hell cute em up where you can gain different shottypes by sucking in weakened enemies at point blank might be fun

[Obiwanshinobi]

There's a shmup minigame in DDS2.

[ptoing]

Ah, did not know that (Not really a fan or RPGs)

[PsikyoFan]

Silk Worm 3(D)

Concept:
With SWIV (Silk Worm In Vertical) The Sale's Curve took Tecmo's Silk Worm arcade game concept and changed the perspective to vertical. How about it this was updated to a 3D perspective / co-op game?

You know about SWIV-3D right? PC game from '96, published by Interplay. Not on-rails. Less of a shmup and more similar to e.g. Desert Strike.

[Wonderbanana]

Silk Worm 3(D)

Concept:
With SWIV (Silk Worm In Vertical) The Sale's Curve took Tecmo's Silk Worm arcade game concept and changed the perspective to vertical. How about it this was updated to a 3D perspective / co-op game?

You know about SWIV-3D right? PC game from '96, published by Interplay. Not on-rails. Less of a shmup and more similar to e.g. Desert Strike.

You are 6 posts too late! But no, tbh I didn't.

I certainly prefer the way I picture what I said in my head though

[Drum]

Steal Salamander 2's kamikaze option missiles that you have to go fetch instead of having a button for dicking around with your Options like in Gradius V.

That button (or, to be precise, the way it works with Type 2 lasers) is pretty much the most awesome thing about Gradus V. Similar button adds some spice to Zanac Special Version as well (yes, Zanac Special Version; no, not Zanac Neo).

It's definitely one of the best things about GV, but they didn't do anything all that interesting with it, and the type that was the most effective was the most intrusive/least fun. I would probably keep it and have some more interesting variations (ie. Salamander 2 Option missiles).

Some sort of more interesting scoring/rank system I guess, but no bullshit that encourages you to play like a retard (see: Ketsui, Battle Garegga etc. - basically all the games this board likes)

Your firepower might be a reward for good performance. Some shmups did that in a way (point blanking stuff with Force charges your special attack in R-Type Delta, grazing the bullets makes your weapons stronger in Psyvariar and Shikigami no Shiro), but I'd like to play a shmup with chaining along the lines of Shinobi for the PS2 and GunValkyrie for the Xbox (where fast killing not only earns you high score, but also gives you abilities necessary to get the most out of the game). I didn't play GunValkyrie, but seems to me that some of its features wouldn't be out of place in the likes of Chelnov. As for Shinobi (PS2), well, now that's what I call chaining.
Devouring your enemies is also a feature I've yet to see in a shmup outside of Digital Devil Saga 2 (where the presentation of it is merely symbolical).

Sorry, truly I am, but this is exactly the sort of stuff I was talking about when I said 'bullshit that encourages to play like a retard'. No grazing, no point blanking, no quick shots, no chaining (unless you are clever about it). Gradius is all about tactical play when it's at its best, and about memorisation when it's at its worst - those things encourage memorisation. A bit of randomness could fix that, but then people would bitch about how high-scoring is too luck-dependant (and I could not argue very forcefully that they are wrong). Poorly-designed scoring systems that actually make the game shallower when played at higher levels (once you've solved the puzzle and/or memorised the entire game) are a cancer in modern shmups. A chain system that I'd be ok with would be losing a bonus for letting enemies fly off-screen or something, but that's hardly interesting.

Re: Devouring: You can eat enemies in Chimera Beast! If you have not played that game, you totally should as I think you will really like it. I would like a sequel to Dragon Breed where you can get your dragon to eat enemies, making his tail longer (like the Snake Game!).