Bullet Hell in 3d - can it work?

[kemical]

it can work, not enough good examples though. Easier with third person since you have a point of reference... it's been mentioned but S&P2 is a great example, it handles enemy projectiles in a smart way that makes them more of a 2d screen space problem similar to 2d games rather than entirely 3d. I guess really you could say it is a 2d game at heart, the 3d visuals serve more as timer/countdowns and telegraphing of threats..

Earth Defense Force is another good example, in a crude brute force way, especially in the later levels. A technique they use is to create simple trailing point sprites that scale down in size following projectiles, it gives a good visualization for if a projectile is flying straight at you or off to the side.

Actually I think Earth Defense Force (on 360) is one of the best current-gen 3d games to handle projectiles and weapon shooting in general... the variations of their basic weapon types and how wild and interesting they can be is really impressive, not to mention how many projectiles can be shot with varying projectile speeds over long range... when compared to raycast real-world weapons in games now.

Vanquish is pretty good in spirit but I wouldn't call it bullet hell, you don't really have a chance to dodge the basic enemy fire like a shmup, it tends to feel more like the calculated/chance hits of some light gun arcade games where the bullet hole appears on your screen... however dodging the missile swarms and larger weapons is really awesome and satisfying. (Vanquish is an awesome game in many ways)

Some light gun games do a good job of visualizing enemy fire, where instead of directly hitting you, enemy fire is abstracted into a line of shots that pulls from one side of the screen closer and closer the middle, or firing across the ground towards the Player's viewpoint... the effect of foreshortening is used as a visual timer showing the Player the approaching impact of bullets and giving a window of opportunity to move out of the way.
Games like Brothers In Arms used this technique for the mortar fire, a marching line of explosions leading up to the player's position, giving them time to dodge... I'm sure plenty of other fps's have done similar.

Classic FPS games did non-raycast projectiles nicely, obvious examples are the fireballs that Imps toss in Doom, very easy to understand how to dodge. Even the rockets that the cyberdemon shoots can be dodged but they also require a larger arena.. both of those examples have a sense of rythm to knowing when to start moving out the way. I guess in general it was more 2d in challenge and design, similar to classic arcade games, without all the overwhelming/busy details of modern 3d games, varying terrain, enemies mixing in with brown background mush... or lots of movement of foliage or grass layers.. the low/nonexistant emphasis of requiring mouselook also probably helped. (compared to Quake)


rambling.. I'd really love to experiment with creating an FPS that plays like a classic 2d shooter, bordering on bullethell at times, I think it would require some elegant cheating on how projectiles are handled, meaning you can't just toss a ton of projectiles at the player and leave it at that... a mix of converting 3d into a 2d screenspace dodge mechanic that works well with strafing, along with enemies leading their shots across the ground up towards you and sideways sprays of bullets etc.. (use of foreshortening as a timer).

I think even the aiming system could be changed to better support the feeling of easily cutting through popcorn enemies and stuff, relying less on individual enemy targeting and more on groupings of enemies.. Possibly making the reticule move smartly, independently of your camera for a more fluid experience, allowing the Player to remain aligned to a general axis of movement for longer amounts of time (more sideways strafing/dodging and less constant turning around).

A smart way of handling enemy presentation would be needed also, along with enemies telegraphing their attacks or any major changes in behavior. I think cool "smart" AI in FPS games is great but it tends to fall apart when as a Player you're unable to identify their plans and react, or constantly get hit by unexpected things they are doing.. I know that thought of slowed down, telegraphed actions, could give an impression of a dull game, but we all know how overwhelming even the slowest of projectiles and enemies become in shooters when the numbers are high... In general I think there is a beautiful art in the movement and pacing of enemy presentation which many modern shooters fail to fully excel at past the point of simply deciding what locations of the level hold certain enemy types.. Left 4 Dead is a good example of it done well though (in some ways).

wrote a lot... anyway, I'm in full support of modern/mainstream 3d games soaking up more from their roots... games get so complex these days with spectacle alone or trends that it is very easy, and almost the norm, to dismiss or be blind to details that in comparison are huge to making classic games feel right, play well and not be just an interactive filler-like challenge or artificial sense of progression or reward...

[Obiwanshinobi]

Apocalypse starring Bruce Willis, provided you play it with two analogue sticks, is as intense as 2D actioners in the vein of Shock Troopers, and yet its gameplay is actually 3-dimensional (most gunfights happen on 2D plane, but it's not just a "flat" arena shooter wit polygonal graphics). As a bullet hell game it's imperfect (performance scattered all over the place, variable speed etc.), but you can tell how good it would be powered by better technology.
It really plays better than it looks, especially with the vibrations...

I would kill for something like Freespace 2 but with a more shmuppy and "japanish" ambience (that is, guided laser missiles and regular missile barrages nonstop, trails everywhere, gigantic multi-beam frigates ala Homeworld but bigger, mechas like those from Quo Vadis 2, sleek, huge and over the top battleship approaching fast, etc.), no matter how inaccurate it is.

Surely some Freespace 2 mods at least tried to fulfill your wishes? Or Freelancer mods for that matter.

[mjclark]

So how about GearToyGear then?- I notice it's billed as a "fast paced 3D shooter" so maybe you do get to do some shooting after all. I might even try playing it lol
Strictly speaking though it's a tube shooter so there's no full freedom of movement in the vertical plane.
Looks mad hectic, and it's inspired me to update that old tube shooter thread where Omega Boost also features.
I eventually got to play Omega boost and, as has been mentioned, tis truly awesome

[nullpointer]

Hi Guys,

Firstly, Thanks for all the great suggestions.

Yeah Sin and Punishment2 does do something close. But generally it 'flattens' the enemy bullets onto a 2d plane when you are faced with any significant number (like in the last boss rush level). It also does some clever 'telegraphing' as you pointed out, where a vector line or trail or hit marker gives the player a quick indication on where to move away from etc. It works fairly well, but you rarely get that sense of navigating a moving maze filed of bullets.
The same can be said for Omega Boost. There are of course many games that are just 2d games essentially done with 3d models and a flat camera angle, thats not really what im after, because they lack the perspectival rush of being 'within' a 3d space. Im going to experiment with some simple 3d ideas, with combined telegraphing to see how feasible it is.. Thanks again, I rarely drop in on this forum nowadays (been signed up here for years tho!) and Im always glad to see its still so active!

[microcosm]

Stereoscopic glasses would give a parallax to every bullet, allowing their distance to be seen directly. Without that, a 3D bullet hell shooter would either be an inelegant kludge or an incomprehensible mess.

[spadgy]

I like to bring this up about once a year, and I'm going to now, even though it's not even a video game.

I really feel certain elements of the 'light show sequence' in the film 2001: Space Odyssey capture something of the feeling of being inside a shmup, and in particular 00.10 secs to 02.35 secs in the sequence linked above give a sense of bullet hell from a first person perspective, which I feel is relevant to this thread. The hole thing of intense focused on a colour spewing horizon is really captured for me. Could this work in an interactive context?

Really, though, you need to watch it on a massive screen and get your eyes real close; then you might see what I'm talking about a little more. Or - I'm just being an idiot.

Later on the sequence reminds me more of art and effects from games like Gradius Gaiden and the Darius series.

I love all of it.

[kemical]

Apocalypse starring Bruce Willis, provided you play it with two analogue sticks, is as intense as 2D actioners in the vein of Shock Troopers, and yet its gameplay is actually 3-dimensional (most gunfights happen on 2D plane, but it's not just a "flat" arena shooter wit polygonal graphics). As a bullet hell game it's imperfect (performance scattered all over the place, variable speed etc.), but you can tell how good it would be powered by better technology.
It really plays better than it looks, especially with the vibrations...

that Apocalypse game looks awesome for what it is, I hadn't heard of it before

[Julimano]

Man, would be great a bullet hell in 3d, I can just imagine how cool it would be to be able to play a game with a bazillion missile coming your way and you dodging it, like some scens from Macross

[linko9]

Someone made a 3D Touhou game that looked halfway decent... I can't find it by googling, but I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about. It was sort of Space Harrier style.

I love S&P2, but it's not quite bullet hell, IMO. And that's probably a good thing for a 3D game.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I like to bring this up about once a year, and I'm going to now, even though it's not even a video game.

I really feel certain elements of the 'light show sequence' in the film 2001: Space Odyssey capture something of the feeling of being inside a shmup, and in particular 00.10 secs to 02.35 secs in the sequence linked above give a sense of bullet hell from a first person perspective, which I feel is relevant to this thread. The hole thing of intense focused on a colour spewing horizon is really captured for me. Could this work in an interactive context?

Really, though, you need to watch it on a massive screen and get your eyes real close; then you might see what I'm talking about a little more. Or - I'm just being an idiot.

Later on the sequence reminds me more of art and effects from games like Gradius Gaiden and the Darius series.

I love all of it.

The famous "Slit-Scan" scene from 2001: A Space Odyssey...if you do a frame-by-frame analysis of it on the Blu-ray version-- you'll see an image of a nude female model although it's stretched quite a bit, it's there in the famous trippy warp scene alrighty.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I remember that warp scene totally wowed me the first time I saw it on TV as a kid in the late 80s or early 90s. It must of been something really special for someone in 1968 to see in the cinema