Bullet Hell in 3d - can it work?

[nullpointer]

Hi all,

The question is in the title really. I've never seen a decent bullet hell shmup with 3d perspective (not just a top down or slight angled cmaera on a 3d scene). Is it possible? The only things I can thnk of that might be near are tempest type clones where you are fixed to a surface, or maybe Rail shooters like S&P or Rez, but even there they never really escalate into pattern navigation like 2d aspect bullet hell shmups do.

Can anyone think of any examples of 3d shmups(or any genre really) that attempts it. My feeling is that its too hard ot judge patterns with the additional element of foreshorteneing etc, but Id love to be proved wrong..

Thanks all

[CptRansom]

I just imagined playing Futari Ultra in first-person perspective and laughed as I imagined a screen of nothing but purple with some crosshairs.



...Today has been a very long day for me. >.>

[LtC]

Nier?

[dpful]

It would work if is was treated as 2 d at the last second, like the moments in mushi where you just have to just stare right at your hit box and slowly navigate a cluster. Maybe it would work- you could get the thrill of seeing all the shit approach in 3d, and then slowly work your way through it as it arrived (seeming more 2d in the dodges). One of the reasons 3d sucks is because stuff gets faster as it gets closer, and less relevant for dodges.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I havnt played it but doesnt Treasure's Sin and Punishment try its hand at 3d bullet hell, especially the boss fights?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw1KftU1 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGYWRNW8 ... re=related

Pluis theres that 360 horizontal that is 2d view but the game world is 3d and you can rotate your view. Cant remember its name atm

One of the reasons 3d sucks is because stuff gets faster as it gets closer, and less relevant for dodges.

One of the reasons that 2.5D isometric vert Razor 2 sucks is because the laser shots get longer the closer to the forground they get. Is this coomon in all 3D isometric shmups and run and gunners like Raystorm and Panzer Dragoon?

This is what I mean, skip to 0.35 - 0.40 in the video and look at the staggered beam shot from that single ship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PxnbfbqfFQ

[Observer]

I know I'm repeating myself, but I think the only one that got close to that was Omega Boost. Polyphony Digital's only venture outside of Grant Turismo...

The scan button was the key mechanic that kept you facing the bigger threats while the boost/dash feature allowed you to quickly "dive" through dense stuff and enemies at full speed. The lock-on system was the cherry on top. The capability of releasing god knows how many guided laser missiles was priceless. So much Macross flavour... Well, no wonder since the mecha was designed by Kawamori.

You just don't get such an awesome display of fireworks, manly mecha and huge ships anymore. And let's not forget the real actors! Almost Westwood-like.

[Aru-san]

Pluis theres that 360 horizontal that is 2d view but the game world is 3d and you can rotate your view. Cant remember its name atm

REVOLVER360 now available for XBLIG.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Omega Boost looks cool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHkBRmxrZ4s

Its a damn shame we dont see hardly any 3D games like this anymore. Whatever happened to the rail shooter / Zone of the Enders and 3D space sims, arcade action and simulation genres we had in the PS1 and PS2 eras? Nowadays apart from the Wii which has some good rail / light gun games. This generation has been shite for 3D genres that arnt mainstream like FPS, 3rd/TPS and RTS / MMOs.

Its like 3D / Mainstream gaming while taking 1 step forwards with inovations in graphics and FPS, RPGs etc. But taking 2 steps back due to stopping all the innovations in 3D gameplay that were made in the ps1/2 eras where 3D game devs were finding their feet and trying out new things to see what works.

Lets hope that as the Indies get better at making games they will start to venture more into 3D genres that are been ignored by the mainstream. Just like whats happening with 2D gaming

[Skykid]

I just imagined playing Futari Ultra in first-person perspective and laughed as I imagined a screen of nothing but purple with some crosshairs.

Sounds like Panorama Cotton man.

[TVG]

The closest you could get I guess is space harrier type gameplay. The game being 3D would prevent you from reading bullet curtains as in 2D fashion, thus the gameplay cannot be similar. You can get bullet herding tho.

If you want something shmuppy and in 3D, try zone of the enders 2.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Er, Omega Boost does have nice looking Itano circus, but I wouldn't call it bullet hell. Swarming drones in Z.O.E.2 resemble bullet hell visually, but last time I checked Another Century's Episode 3 had better framerate (offtopic, I know, but check it out if you are into mecha action games).
Freelancer for the PC also gets rather busy.

[EinhanderZwei]

Finally someone except of myself dared to spell 'shmup' and 'Zone Of The Enders 2' in a single sentence

[Obiwanshinobi]

Z.O.E.2 is about grabbing the enemies, spinning them around you and flinging at other enemies rather than shooting. This and dashing.

[Jeneki]

I remember describing Serious Sam to a friend as "First-Person Smash TV".

[EinhanderZwei]

I remember describing Serious Sam to a friend as "First-Person Smash TV".

Smash TV wasn't bullet hell, it's more like kamikaze enemies hell

[ratikal]

Star Fox 64 could work. I remember plenty of moments you had to barrel roll tons of bullets. Take that out of the game and you got bullet hell.

[Super Laydock]

I can't see 3D bullet hell working on traditional platforms.

I would like to see Cave or others try and make use of Nintendo 3DS specific capabilities to make a bullet hell game with 3d effects or even total 3D.

Hope some surprises me with it as it would make for an incentive to actually look into buying one.

[Iori Branford]

I was just imagining various Cave games in FPS form.

• As in Space Harrier, game moves forward, bullets fly at your face, and your movement plane is upright.

• Weapons can be aimed in any direction within a cone in front of you.

• Your weakpoint is now your head, so you can still judge when bullets are about to hit you.

W = Climb
S = Dive
A = Strafe left
D = Strafe right
Mouse = Look/Aim
LMB = Rapid Shot
RMB = Laser
Shift = Secondary Function: Kakusei (ESPGaluda), Morph (Akai Katana), Psy-Grenade (ESPRaDe), ...
Z = Tertiary Function: Zesshikai (ESPGaluda), ...
Space = Bomb or Guard Barrier

[Obiwanshinobi]

I was just imagining various Cave games in FPS form.

• As in Space Harrier, game moves forward, bullets fly at your face, and your movement plane is upright.

• Weapons can be aimed in any direction within a cone in front of you.

• Your weakpoint is now your crosshair, so it's still in view at all times.

W = Ascend
S = Descend
A = Strafe left
D = Strafe right
Mouse = Look/Aim
LMB = Rapid Shot
RMB = Laser
Shift = Secondary Function: Kakusei (ESPGaluda), Morph (Akai Katana), Psy-Grenade (ESPRaDe), ...
Z = Tertiary Function: Zesshikai (ESPGaluda), ...
Space = Bomb or Guard Barrier

Um, if the game moves forward by itself and you aim and dodge with a crosshair alone (no need to move your "body" around), why would you even need WSAD? It should be playable with just one hand operating a mouse. The screen could be scrolling as you move the crosshair near its border, like in many games with point & click interface.

[Iori Branford]

Um, if the game moves forward by itself and you aim and dodge with a crosshair alone (no need to move your "body" around), why would you even need WSAD? It should be playable with just one hand operating a mouse. The screen could be scrolling as you move the crosshair near its border, like in many games with point & click interface.

I meant to say the head was the weak point, sorry.

The mouse is only for turning, not moving.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Freelancer did three-dimensional, arcade dogfighting with mouse and keyboard well enough (it doesn't even support a joystick), but that was, well, dogfighting: agile crafts of comparable size duelling each other rather than battling enormous bosses and taking down swarms of popcorn enemies in the twinkling of an eye, therefore Freelancer is more like Bosconian in 3D.

[spadgy]

Twitch gaming in a 3D space is always going to be a challenge from a game design perspective.

It's not only the issue of player ability to sense and judge movement in 3D space on a 2D screen. It's an issue of presentation. How do you give the player the perspective they need without complicating the issue further by handing over camera control?

And 3D displays (stereoscopic for example) won't help this. They still only deliver the illusion of 3D on a 2D screen (just as an FPS on a normal 2D screen creates and illusion of 3D).

That said, I played Super Stardust HD on a good stereoscopic screen, and that was great fun! Still effectively 2D in terms of the playing field/plane though.

Omega Boost and Another Century's Episode 3 look great fun. Are they worth a play?

[MR_Soren]

Omega Boost looks cool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHkBRmxrZ4s

Its a damn shame we dont see hardly any 3D games like this anymore. Whatever happened to the rail shooter / Zone of the Enders and 3D space sims, arcade action and simulation genres we had in the PS1 and PS2 eras? Nowadays apart from the Wii which has some good rail / light gun games. This generation has been shite for 3D genres that arnt mainstream like FPS, 3rd/TPS and RTS / MMOs.

Its like 3D / Mainstream gaming while taking 1 step forwards with inovations in graphics and FPS, RPGs etc. But taking 2 steps back due to stopping all the innovations in 3D gameplay that were made in the ps1/2 eras where 3D game devs were finding their feet and trying out new things to see what works.

Lets hope that as the Indies get better at making games they will start to venture more into 3D genres that are been ignored by the mainstream. Just like whats happening with 2D gaming

Oh, Omega Boost! I got that basically as a freebie on an auction for RayStorm and RayCrisis. Only played it the night it got it, but it was kinda cool.

You are totally right about games like that vanishing. In general, game developers seem to be sticking to known genres like FPS, RPG, STG, etc instead of treading new or lesser traveled paths. However, it's not just the developers; the customers don't purchase games like Sin and Punishment 2. Not sure if today's consumers lack the individuality to try something new or if the gaming media is so focused on pushing more of the same that the buyers simply aren't informed.

Anyway, I don't think 3D bullet-hell is necessarily going to work due to the perspective being somewhat problematic, but I would like to see more 3D shooting games that are not FPS. More games like Panzer Dragoon, StarFox, Skygunner, or Zone of the Enders would be nice. Even better if somebody out there has an idea for a 3D shooting game that is unlike anything we've seen before.

[mjclark]

GearToyGear comes close to fitting the bill here surely, except I don't think you get to shoot anything just dodge and smash.

[Observer]

spadgy> Omega Boost is THE shit. It has Kawamori' seal of glory all over it and some of the cheesiest and most awesome real acting around.

The game not only has parts where you battle in open spaces, you also fly by over terrain (Levels 4 and 7), you have tube shooting moments (Levels 5 and 9) and a fight inside a sealed room (Level .

Running at 60 fps (on the PSX!), it was a technological feat that still puts to shame a lot of recent stuff... (God, I'm so exaggerated, but, yes, it's really cool and while Zone of the Enders 2 is nice and dice, Kawamori and Omega Boost still win, it's just so damn badass and a sign of a decade that is gone and ended precisely back in 1999).

I ended up tracking down a complete nearly-mint copy of the japanese version of the game. It was pretty much the only game placed inside my PSX before it broke.

I would kill for something like Freespace 2 but with a more shmuppy and "japanish" ambience (that is, guided laser missiles and regular missile barrages nonstop, trails everywhere, gigantic multi-beam frigates ala Homeworld but bigger, mechas like those from Quo Vadis 2, sleek, huge and over the top battleship approaching fast, etc.), no matter how inaccurate it is. Oh and also voice acting similar to Homeworld. Damn, that game had great voices.

Nevermind, I'm rambling now.

[njiska]

Nier?

I was just about to say the same thing.

[Drum]

Yeah, Nier, Revolver 360 and Sin and Punishment 2 are good picks. I'll also throw in Ys - Oath in Felghana. Has a few elements of that.
Ways of coping with twitch gaming/bullet curtains in 3D: I thought what would work is some sort of 'auto dodge' system. Like, as long as the player isn't moving in the direction the bullet is coming from, it automatically gets out of the way. If you just sit there you will dodge bullets but will quickly get overwhelmed and find yourslef auto-dodging into another bullet.
Maybe the 'auto dodge' cut be activated by holding a button.
Sounds like blasphemy to action game purists but it could work really well in a true 3D space with crazy amounts of bullets.

[Drum]

Would love to play an arena shooter like UT with ludicrous amounts of slow moving bullets in crazy patterns.
Some sort of visual aid to judge distance would be really imprtant though - maybe a the bullets could change colour the closer they get to you.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

PN03 is a wierd hybrid that i from what ive heard about it doesnt quite work, shame it would be cool if someone could take the core gameplay and make it work in another game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27DClTDf3TA

[Drum]

PN03 is a wierd hybrid that i from what ive heard about it doesnt quite work, shame it would be cool if someone could take the core gameplay and make it work in another game.

Vanquish probably qualifies, I guess. Lotta projectiles on-screen in that game.