Shmupmame 4.2: Lagless Mars Matrix, Strikers 1945, Galaga 88

[Treasurance]

In a Shooting Game, one f**kin' frame can be the Border of Life and Death.

[SPYvsSPY]

If people like it, fine, but be under no illusions that it is _broken_ emulation, designed specifically to give you an advantage.

I agree with that, official mame high scores need to be set in the official mame release. NO spin-off addictions such as Shmupmame/Ash-mame/FX or XT mame. I just love Shmupmame though, it's a blast! Good stuff IMO. I wouldn't defend it as the perfect arcade emulator over the original. That would be just crazy talk.

[cools]

What puzzles me more are the games that really lag, ie: battle garegga, mars matrix, galaga 88 etc. Anyone knows how they behave on an actual machine?

Garegga/Batrider/Bakraid have input lag on original hardware. It's not much but it's noticeable compared to Cave SH3 and Raiden II for example.

In fact out of everything I've played on original hardware it's only the Raizing and Psikyo stuff that I've been able to pick out as having lag.

I've not done extensive tests comparing MAME (at 15khz on a CRT, using PS2 for controls) with original kit, but TNZS does have a very slight increase - original hardware is unnoticeable, with MAME in an optimum environment it's maybe a single frame increase. The resolution frequency and vsync tearing are a bigger pain though.

[moozooh]

If you honestly feel that MAME / your PC is adding more lag then you should look to be eliminating that properly, rather than breaking the emulation to 'simulate' it's removal.. It's not the same thing, not at all. A real solution would be universal, not hacked on a per-game basis.

Ideally, yes. In practice the cost and effort of achieving this would make buying the original cabs a far easier and cheaper prospect with a minor difference in resulting responsiveness, defeating the purpose of using MAME in the first place. Idealists don't play on MAME.

Using ShmupMAME is an easier, way more convenient solution with little to no negative consequences.

official mame high scores need to be set in the official mame release

The notion of "official MAME high scores" is silly. Both MAME and its working environment (the hardware and the OS) are systems so complex, with such an amount of variables bringing in all sorts of differences that, added together, would dwarf the 17 ms saved by messing with the buffer. The word "official" can only refer to the original and/or endorsed hardware and software. Everything else is equally unofficial.

[PROMETHEUS]

If people like it, fine, but be under no illusions that it is _broken_ emulation, designed specifically to give you an advantage.

I agree with that, official mame high scores need to be set in the official mame release. NO spin-off addictions such as Shmupmame/Ash-mame/FX or XT mame. I just love Shmupmame though, it's a blast!

I think I kind of agree with that (minus the "broken" part) however :

Good stuff IMO. I wouldn't defend it as the perfect arcade emulator over the original. That would be just crazy talk.

This emulator is definitely the best since what it does is improve control, no matter how it achieves that result. The only concern is that it might actually touch an area of improvement that affects player performance in scoring runs, creating a comparability problem of scores between versions.

But if indeed shmupMAME has one less frame of input lag than all other platforms (which still isn't confirmed), then there is no doubt it is the best performing setup to play shmups on, accross all platforms.

Maybe there is no input lag on console ports either, yet they are considered acceptable to compare scores with.

[IseeThings]

If you honestly feel that MAME / your PC is adding more lag then you should look to be eliminating that properly, rather than breaking the emulation to 'simulate' it's removal.. It's not the same thing, not at all. A real solution would be universal, not hacked on a per-game basis.

Ideally, yes. In practice the cost and effort of achieving this would make buying the original cabs a far easier and cheaper prospect with a minor difference in resulting responsiveness, defeating the purpose of using MAME in the first place. Idealists don't play on MAME.

official mame high scores need to be set in the official mame release

The notion of "official MAME high scores" is silly. Both MAME and its working environment (the hardware and the OS) are systems so complex, with such an amount of variables bringing in all sorts of differences that, added together, would dwarf the 17 ms saved by messing with the buffer. The word "official" can only refer to the original and/or endorsed hardware and software. Everything else is equally unofficial.

Well MARP is still one of the longest running MAME sites, and exists entirely for that purpose. Some nice replays up there

Twin Galaxies I believe even accept some old versions of MAME for scores (that on the other hand IS stupid, it's far too easy to hack / cheat with replays for them to be considered any kind of OFFICIAL record, and in many cases the emulation of titles they accept with that version is broken in significant gameplay altering ways compared to newer versions!)

[IseeThings]

But if indeed shmupMAME has one less frame of input lag than all other platforms (which still isn't confirmed), then there is no doubt it is the best performing setup to play shmups on, accross all platforms.

there is still plenty of doubt.

I for one prefer backgrounds to be properly synced with sprites, rather than seeing them break apart during scrolling! Such ugly glitches put me off playing the game at all.

Fanboys are annoying.. and that's what this thread has turned into, as Paul has also noted. He probably wishes he never even suggested the thing in the first place.

You simply can't disagree with the 'broken' part, because above everything that part is a proven fact, it's not even just an opinion. The very essence of this build is that it breaks the emulation to reduce the input lag, that's what it is! If it was anything else the official dev team would be welcoming the changes with open arms and integrating them into the mainline build.

I can understand people wanting to use this build, but the ridiculous claims being made are getting to the pure Fanboyism stage. There is nothing rocket science here.

[SPYvsSPY]

Indeed, you just have to take emulators with a grain of salt, that's all.

[moozooh]

I for one prefer backgrounds to be properly synced with sprites, rather than seeing them break apart during scrolling! Such ugly glitches put me off playing the game at all.

Fanboys are annoying.. and that's what this thread has turned into, as Paul has also noted. He probably wishes he never even suggested the thing in the first place.

You simply can't disagree with the 'broken' part, because above everything that part is a proven fact, it's not even just an opinion. The very essence of this build is that it breaks the emulation to reduce the input lag, that's what it is! If it was anything else the official dev team would be welcoming the changes with open arms and integrating them into the mainline build.

I see your point, Haze, but this build has never been intended to be more accurate than its parent. Its purpose is to somewhat mitigate an important disadvantage brought by using an emulator in the first place compared to playing on the original hardware, at the cost of bringing another disadvantage that, for the vast majority of vocal scoreplayers here, as you may have seen, is not at all important.

The problem with your stance on the subject is that you, as a MAME developer, are comparing ShmupMAME to the parent MAME, which makes the former look broken. Those who play games for score are (albeit for the most part theoretically) comparing it to the original hardware, making it look fixed. You aren't going to come to any kind of consensus as long as you continue arguing from a different premise.

[TVG]

Garegga/Batrider/Bakraid have input lag on original hardware. It's not much but it's noticeable compared to Cave SH3 and Raiden II for example.

In fact out of everything I've played on original hardware it's only the Raizing and Psikyo stuff that I've been able to pick out as having lag.

I've not done extensive tests comparing MAME (at 15khz on a CRT, using PS2 for controls) with original kit, but TNZS does have a very slight increase - original hardware is unnoticeable, with MAME in an optimum environment it's maybe a single frame increase. The resolution frequency and vsync tearing are a bigger pain though.

Interesting, thanks for the info. So some (good) games do lag more than the others by design.

[IseeThings]

The problem with your stance on the subject is that you, as a MAME developer, are comparing ShmupMAME to the parent MAME, which makes the former look broken. Those who play games for score are (albeit for the most part theoretically) comparing it to the original hardware, making it look fixed. You aren't going to come to any kind of consensus as long as you continue arguing from a different premise.

Still 'fixing' something by actually breaking it further / in other ways isn't really fixing it at all..

If the brakes on your car fail you don't cut a hole under the drivers seat so you can stop it with your feet.

[moozooh]

Going by your analogy, fixing the brakes would cost me more than buying a new car, but thankfully I have cybernetic prostheses to achieve a similar result by braking "manually". It may not be fixed, but it looks fixed because it behaves as if it was.

Again, we're judging by result and you're judging by principle. Two different things.

[PROMETHEUS]

Going by your analogy, fixing the brakes would cost me more than buying a new car, but thankfully I have cybernetic prostheses to achieve a similar result by braking "manually". It may not be fixed, but it looks fixed because it behaves as if it was.

Again, we're judging by result and you're judging by principle. Two different things.

+1 (and the principle doesn't matter)

[third_strike]

I have any question in off: How take off the filter from mame0141b? I can't find the video options in this build.

[IseeThings]

Going by your analogy, fixing the brakes would cost me more than buying a new car, but thankfully I have cybernetic prostheses to achieve a similar result by braking "manually". It may not be fixed, but it looks fixed because it behaves as if it was.

Again, we're judging by result and you're judging by principle. Two different things.

+1 (and the principle doesn't matter)

So you're happy to see the graphics tear apart when you move? To see everything wobble like it's going to fall apart where they mix sprites in the background layers?

It's hideous! Of course it matters, I'd never ship a game like that.

It's not how it's meant to look at all, it's visibly broken, if I start watching a YouTube video and that happens, I stop there and then, because I know it's been recorded with a broken emulator.

[Treasurance]

The hell is this faggotry? If a game is supposed to have 2 frames of lag, making it 1 frame is essentially breaking the game.

Guess where the word "lame" comes from? It's "lagless arcade machine emulator"

[PROMETHEUS]

So you're happy to see the graphics tear apart when you move? To see everything wobble like it's going to fall apart where they mix sprites in the background layers?

It's hideous! Of course it matters, I'd never ship a game like that.

It's not how it's meant to look at all, it's visibly broken, if I start watching a YouTube video and that happens, I stop there and then, because I know it's been recorded with a broken emulator.

Of course, minor graphic glytches such as these don't matter when you're playing the game competitively, whereas 1 less frame of input lag does.

[PROMETHEUS]

The hell is this faggotry? If a game is supposed to have 2 frames of lag, making it 1 frame is essentially breaking the game.

"supposed"
By who ? Game developpers ? You think it was intentional, or a limitation ? (obviously a limitation)
If intentional, why would game developpers opinion rule over everyone else's ? (it doesn't)

[TrevHead (TVR)]

This thread is as much about 'sticking it to the man' and 'making MAME cool again' as it perceptible improvements.

As someone who first came to Mame because of this thread and ShmupMame v1.5 and doesnt really understand the technical side of Mame too well only that there isnt one version of Mame out there that will run every (fully working/ green coded) rom perfectly.

I wasnt here for too long before this thread was posted, but the genral feeling I got from other members was Mame atleast where shmups were concerned was seen as something only poor ppl touched while anybody who was seroius went out and bought the PCB or atleast a real console port. Then when ShmupMame LAGLESS EDITION came out, here was a version of MAME made specially for us that removed lag from many of our favorite shooters. For the first time here was a version of mame that wasnt seen as something that wasnt as playable as the real thing but something just as good maybe even better.

Plus considering nowadays the number 1 advice us folk here give any noob to the forum is to get himself ShmupMame and a romset and play DDP, I would imagine theres alot of other ppl like me who are very thankfull towards Nimitz. I seriously wonder if we would of had the PGM Cave games on mame if it wasnt for the popularity with shmuppers that ShmupMame created.

I dont know whose right and wrong in this aurgument but even if Haze was right Ithink having a special version of mame that made for us shmuppers is as important as any PCB - Mame comparison

[TVG]

I wasnt here for too long before this thread was posted, but the genral feeling I got from other members was Mame atleast where shmups were concerned was seen as something only poor ppl touched while anybody who was seroius went out and bought the PCB or atleast a real console port.

I don't know who gave you that impression but it's definitely not consensus. It's been widely agreed, given the proper setup, you can have a very close experience to a PCB. And while a PCB is still better, mame is still better than about all console ports. Of course then you get the "purists" etc, but I tought they were a minority on this forum.

[Treasurance]

The hell is this faggotry? If a game is supposed to have 2 frames of lag, making it 1 frame is essentially breaking the game.

"supposed"
By who ? Game developpers ? You think it was intentional, or a limitation ? (obviously a limitation)
If intentional, why would game developpers opinion rule over everyone else's ? (it doesn't)

Well, if it's a matter of opinion, of course it's the devs, they made the game. Why not just ask their opinion?

OR MAKE A SEPARATE SCOREBOARD FOR THE LAGLESS, "BETTER" VERSION

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Also even if Shmupmame really is faster then the PCB originals, It cant be every game can it? Its been a long time since ive looked at the original v1.5 and v2 dev notes that tell us how many frames are shaved off each game, but I would imagine that the lag in vanilla Mame is longer then original PCBs especially if theres extra frames added by the hardware of the PC right? Its just that maybe shmupmame should chop off 2 frames when it should be 1? right????

[IseeThings]

The hell is this faggotry? If a game is supposed to have 2 frames of lag, making it 1 frame is essentially breaking the game.

"supposed"
By who ? Game developpers ? You think it was intentional, or a limitation ? (obviously a limitation)
If intentional, why would game developpers opinion rule over everyone else's ? (it doesn't)

In many cases it's intentional. Even on hardware with NO inherent sprite lag, there are plenty of games which have it.

Baseline MAME plays the games as they were meant to be played, as designed by the people who made them. Input lag and all.

ShmupMAME *does not*

It might be 'better' for playing, but it isn't more correct by anybody's definition.

I don't buy the stuff about PC hardware adding lag at all, unless you start turning on options which explicitly do that such as triple buffering.

As I said, Fanboys are annoying. I don't mind people using this build, that's their choice. What bothers me is people making stupidly false claims about it as if the baseline build is in some way broken, which it certainly is not.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I wasnt here for too long before this thread was posted, but the genral feeling I got from other members was Mame atleast where shmups were concerned was seen as something only poor ppl touched while anybody who was seroius went out and bought the PCB or atleast a real console port.

I don't know who gave you that impression but it's definitely not consensus. It's been widely agreed, given the proper setup, you can have a very close experience to a PCB. And while a PCB is still better, mame is still better than about all console ports. Of course then you get the "purists" etc, but I tought they were a minority on this forum.

You might be right but those "purists" even if they are a minority are quite vocal

[TVG]

"supposed"
By who ? Game developpers ? You think it was intentional, or a limitation ? (obviously a limitation)
If intentional, why would game developpers opinion rule over everyone else's ? (it doesn't)

As far as I'm concerned, in a hypothetical situation where an arcade game responds in two frames on original hardware, I want it to respond in two frames in the emulation. While, frankly, in the end I don't think one frame matters that much in shmups performance, consider a game that has 4 frames or something, if you change the game to respond in one, you aren't playing the same game.
The above is entierly hypothetical, I am definitely not saying the original PCBs had more or less lag etc. I don't know.

Don't get me wrong, I think shmupmame is cool, and probably most needed for people on LCDs. I'd just like to hear more facts. Hopefully the topic can accomplish one thing, crush rampant misconceptions.

[moozooh]

Again and again, the arguments of (Shmup)MAME's speed compared to PCBs should either be conducted from the standpoint of complete systems' combined/average latency or not at all. It's very much pointless to tell somebody with an LCD monitor they're having unfair advantage in latency compared to PCB players. Get real, or get out.

So you're happy to see the graphics tear apart when you move? To see everything wobble like it's going to fall apart where they mix sprites in the background layers?

It's hideous! Of course it matters, I'd never ship a game like that.

You're exaggerating this beyond belief. I take it you don't actually play games well, if at all, if you're so concerned with minor wobbling noticeable on some games in some situations? Could you point at another player here who was so offended by the graphics discrepancy as to stop using ShmupMAME (any of its versions) altogether on that count?

Otherwise, maybe you shouldn't chime in with remarks as irrelevant as that? It's no better than bashing a shmup's gameplay because you don't like the character art.

[captpain]

If I had the option between playing a game on a PCB with 4 frames of lag, or on a custom build of MAME that emulated it but with only 1 frame of lag, I would choose the MAME version that responds in 1 frame.

I understand the principle of it all, but I'm going where there's less input lag, even if it's different from the original.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Call me thick or a tard but how can LCD screens give more lag compared to CRT? Is it all interpollation or is there lag even at native res?

While were on the supject of hardware lag can anyone explain to me if the whole "use a wired controller because wireless adds lag (especially for Mame)" myth is correct or not? and if so how much lag would a wireless pad add on?

[TVG]

When I go to play street fighter 4 at friend's houses or elsewhere the lag is fucking unbearable at first. I get used to it tho. I feel worse lag in some instance offline on LCDs than when I play online at home, which should tell you how bad some screens are. Of course they now manufacture screens with very short responses, but I don't know how upscaling plays into that.

[Treasurance]

The 1 frame difference is so drastic we need separate scoreboards.