XRGB2+ Scart lead incompatibility issues - need your brains

[Skykid]

Righty,

This has been a terribly long (at least half a year) of trouble for myself and for the poor chap who supplied me with some hand built JP scart leads, and I'm pretty much at the end of my rope trying to figure out the issue. In a last ditch attempt I'm hoping someone here can pinpoint the problem.
I'll try my hardest to keep this simple:

1st attempt:

1: I buy an OFFICIAL SFC Scart Lead from YHJ. It works a treat on my XRGB2+ piping a beautiful picture thru to my LCD TV.

2: I order some custom made JP scart leads for various consoles: Saturn/PS2/MD. The leads are console input to female DB9, attaching to the male DB9 connector on a single generic JP Scart head (for easy hot swapping.)
On arrival the following happens when connecting the leads to the XRGB2+:

Saturn: Enormous bands of light run horizontally across the screen, usually appearing to be caused by lighter parts of the game graphics.

PS2: The very top edge of the picture is bent to the right and wobbling. Could be worse, but not perfect.

MD: Unable to test (MD2 lead sent by mistake.)

3: Pull out the smaller LCD PC monitor from the bedroom to try them on there: same issues remain, ruling out the TV set as the problem.

Second attempt:

1: The seller says he usually uses the leads thru an XRGB2+ on a CRT monitor and tested them and they were fine (doesn't use LCD's much), but says he will send a replacement main DB9 to Scart (the general purpose lead which connects all the console leads by DB9 adaptor) to see if was that causing the issue.

2: Receive the replacement DB9 -> Scart and get the following:

Saturn: Unchanged, bands of light remain even with the new lead.

PS2: The signal hardly works with the original PS2 lead and the new DB9 -> Scart lead. It behaves in the same manner as you would get a broken wire, with the picture disappearing and reappearing quickly and erratically. Much worse than originally.

Viletim Jamma -> Scart test:

Now, by the time I got the replacement lead to test with, I also received one of viletim's Jamma -> Scart adaptors. Being the only usable CRT in the house, I tried all the scart leads through there, set up with both the original DB9 -> Scart lead and the replacement one: 100% success, all the leads perform perfectly.

My problem is, I bought an XRGB2+ to use consoles on my LCD. It's okay to plug your PS2 into the Egret 2 now and then, but rotating the screen all the time is simply impractical whenever you wish to use a console.

In Summary:

-The official SFC JP Scart lead from YHJ works flawlessly via the XRGB2+ into LCD TV
-The custom leads are fine with a CRT
-The custom leads are fine with a CRT PC monitor via XRGB2+ (seller's testing, not mine.)
-The custom leads are unpredictable and generally incompatible via the XRGB2+ into any LCD monitor I've used. The question is why, and is this solvable?

Does anyone know what the heck this could all be about. I'm about to send them back but I'm holding onto any possible shred that will save me from having to hunt and buy official scart leads for all my consoles.

Thanks for the help guys.

[Strider77]

I've noticed when using adapters like that and unofficial leads for the systems that sometimes:

The pinout for the grounding is different from cable to cable. Especially with adapters. I make my own most the time and when I do I don't bother using all the ground pins. I usually am lazy and just use one or two. Through an adapter in the mix and sometimes there is a chance of no grounding be in the loop.

My saturn had this issue due to the way the cable was made, once I added a few extra grounding pins to my adapter all was right again. Before it was working fine with the XRGB, but then once plugged into my PVM I had issues. It was the adapter not having the same pins used for grounding that my Saturn cord was.

Still, it sounds like those custom cables could be crap quality also. Shitty wire possibly with almost no shielding. Why not just use the real scart leads?

[Skykid]

You mean the official scart leads (or real as in, ones without the DB9 disconnects?)

I don't think they're poor quality, and they're certainly gorgeous on the CRT in the cab. The dude is a forum member here and well respected (not using his name in case he doesn't want me to, but I'm sure he's produced several such leads for other guys here.)

Regarding the DB9 adaptor setup, initially I couldn't see the point but in the end I did see the logic in them as they save you constantly pulling on the scarts as you switch them in the XRGB, and we know how fragile scart connectors can be.

I would hate to think it was those connectors causing the issue though.

So you think it might be possible to straighten these out to work on an LCD or should I just hunt down the official leads?

Damn this sucks man, just wanna play in RGB/VGA..

[Strider77]

It's to hard to say for sure without being there in person. My best guess is the grounding issue. Do you have a voltage tester?

So none of your console are working properly with your LCD? Do some work when plugged directly in the XRGB without the adapter? How long are the cords for these adapters?

[speedlolita]

I think it's to do with your LCD and the XRGB-2+ really.

My friend's 3 didn't work on his Samsung 3DTV with his PC Engine for example but all was fine on his CRT and Pioneer.

Tried another LCD TV?

Maybe try changing the CRT sync setting in the menu? I don't recall how but I believe you can make the XRGB-2+ signal stronger or something similar..

[SuperPang]

I just bought one of these for my Euro cables and it works a treat
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0564605796

[Strider77]

I think it's to do with your LCD and the XRGB-2+ really.

He said the SF worked though. That's why I asked if any of the other consoles worked.

[Skykid]

It's to hard to say for sure without being there in person. My best guess is the grounding issue. Do you have a voltage tester?

I have a multimeter, how would I apply it?

So none of your console are working properly with your LCD? Do some work when plugged directly in the XRGB without the adapter? How long are the cords for these adapters?

In total, I can run two consoles perfectly: The SFC with the official lead, and my PCE HuCard system that is hardwired with an RGB Euro Scart (I run it through a EU -> JP adaptor and it works flawlessly.)

Those two leads aren't from this problem batch though.

I just bought one of these for my Euro cables and it works a treat
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0564605796

Yep, I bought two, one reverse engineered for using JP leads on Viletim's euro input device. In terms of quality, is there any difference with JP leads on JP consoles compared to a Euro lead on a JP console running through the adaptor (it won't damage the console or anything?) If not, I may as well grab some Saturn and PS2 scart leads cheap on ebay?

I think it's to do with your LCD and the XRGB-2+ really.

I considered that too, but as noted, the SFC and PCE work fine and yes, I tried another LCD as I mentioned in the OP - I pulled in the one from the bedroom (PC monitor) and had the same issues.

[Strider77]

I think it's your grounding. Euro Scart and Japanese Scart use MULTIPLE pins for grounding. Not all of them are needed and alot of cables (EURO and JPN) don't use all of them. Then add to the mix if those adapter cables you are using don't use all the grounding pins... your left with cables that are possibly not using the same pins and the grounding is not used at all.

I made any adapters I use myself and always made sure if nothing else the casing was grounded.

You need to take the voltage tester and switch it to do a continuity check (so it beeps when you touch the two leads coming off the tester together). Look at a diagram to see what pin on the saturn cable (into console end) is used for ground, then on the JPN RGB end that goes into the XRGB see if you get a beep on any of those pins. Not what pins you get a beep from and come back and let us know.

[gray117]

The leads are console input to female DB9, attaching to the male DB9 connector on a single generic JP Scart head (for easy hot swapping.)

^I reckon this might be the weak link... bad pun... I must admit to little knowledge of xrgb but have used/converted western scart for many a purpose...

I would echo Strider77 on the grounding - especially any sync grounding issues.

I'm not sure I would recommend the db9 swap - maybe just straight scart to scart western-> jap conversion as fully wired as possible - to which you then simply connected your western scart rgb for each console. Or if you have jap proper jap rgb cables for everything a straight jap/jap extension scart lead, shielded, fully wired... [I would say any scart cable fully wired - but not too sure on the jap config - whether some grounds are shared or not...]

The reason for this db9 being - difficult - could be how rgb and/or sync are grounded - weather that's shared or independant etc etc - I don't know if any xrgb users have any particular wisdom in this respect?

Are you connecting to the lcd using vga - presume this cable is of good quality and fully shielded?
Presume 'auto adjust' [or similar] on your LCD changes nothing?

... It does however strike me as strange that this should work on a crt but not on lcd - to me this would again speak to a sync issue - the crt probably being more tolerable.

The ps2 case seems to be an xrgb classic case of sync problem. That saturn description - not so sure but probably similar related to grounding, perhaps of rgb as well as sync.

[Skykid]

The ps2 case seems to be an xrgb classic case of sync problem.

So this has occurred before? Keep in mind the PS2 is nearly completely stable when using the original Scart head connector, it was the second one that made it completely unusable.

Hmm, I'm really thinking about just bagging some Euro scarts to try them through the region adaptor. I know Pang says it does the trick. Just curious if you guys know of any picture quality differences between EU and JP scart?

In fact... I may have an EU Saturn lead still here.
I'll dig it out and give it a shot.

[gray117]

The ps2 case seems to be an xrgb classic case of sync problem.

So this has occurred before? Keep in mind the PS2 is nearly completely stable when using the original Scart head connector, it was the second one that made it completely unusable.

Hmm, I'm really thinking about just bagging some Euro scarts to try them through the region adaptor. I know Pang says it does the trick. Just curious if you guys know of any picture quality differences between EU and JP scart?

In fact... I may have an EU Saturn lead still here.
I'll dig it out and give it a shot.

[All fudoh's work] Does the picture dink/bend/wobble look like this: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/pce_wave.jpg - he's got some 'afc' advice on that page (although he says ps1/ps2 seemed to be an easy job - he does talk about rgb converted setups - such as pcengine - having troubles - perhaps your cables make your setup more like the pc engine mod situation (?):

[Source- http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ ]
"One advanced setting which can be important to more exotic systems is the NTSC AFC setting (just check the complete translation PDF linked above if you need help finding it). You'll need this setting if you experience something like this/"


There shouldn't be any picture differences between jap and western scart - for the picture they both essentially carry an identical RGBS signal.

The danger is that their pinouts are different and can cause damage if the jap/western pinouts are mixed up - http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/other/jrgb.htm

When I use the term - fully wired - I'm talking about basically a wire per pin [or at least the used pins - there are often unused pins for 2 way audio video etc as you can see above].

Cheap ass cables sometimes have a composite video rather than proper 3 line rgb [the scart connector was typically designed to deal with either composite or rgb as well as other uses such as 2 way cctv etc.] and can have non-typical pins unwired - which you may end up needing for grounds. In addition grounds may share a common ground wire which might be undesirable - I had this once before - which a specific console might have an issue with.

So to avoid such issues I would suggest using a 'fully wired' lead as the interconnecting device [unless an xrgb user would advise otherwise] and generally letting the console lead dictate what line goes to what pin. Of course you also need to decide which cable consistently does the swapping to JAP pin out.

When you say ps2 scart 'head connector' - If that is 3 wires going into a scart adapter then that's a composite video and L/R audio there - not a full proper RGB scart cable?

[Skykid]

Thanks so much gray, and yes, the wobble on the original PS2 lead is very similar to that, although slightly less pronounced. It's more like one single bend going off at the top rather than being wavy. But it looks to me to be a similar problem.

The truth is, and as Fudoh knows from many a question, I'm not particularly skilled with opening up scart leads and making adjustments. In fact, it would be fair to say my tech knowledge is no more than simple soldering/desoldering jobs, voltage checking and adjusting my cab. The most soldering I've done is removing varta batteries and adding blobs here and there to keep the spade connectors properly attached to a kick harness.

That's not to say I couldn't make these adjustments with some effort - but I bought the things hoping very much for an out of the box solution. If that's not going to work, it's probably simpler for me to return them for a refund and hunt down much easier to find Euro scarts and run them through a converter.

That's my thinking at the moment anyway.

[gray117]

well I blame tv companies for not being as simple as the jamma standards ... you wouldn't have thought it could be so difficult to get r, g, b sync and ground wired up would you?

... but oh no they've got to be difficult... and those consumers only want to plug in one thing after all ... and those cabling companies want to create cheap cables, and then split off a market of 'premium' products to solve the rubbish designs of those cheap cabling solutions... argh...

fking s-video only equipment - good but whats the point? sync on green - why bother - just have a seperate sync line ffs? Grumble grumble ... sorry, some past difficulties haunting me ...

Someone needs to sell screw in terminal scart plugs ... you can get vga ones...

[Strider77]

If you have an XRGB2+, you could always give the PS2 a spin using a component cable.

[Skykid]

well I blame tv companies for not being as simple as the jamma standards ... you wouldn't have thought it could be so difficult to get r, g, b sync and ground wired up would you?

... but oh no they've got to be difficult... and those consumers only want to plug in one thing after all ... and those cabling companies want to create cheap cables, and then split off a market of 'premium' products to solve the rubbish designs of those cheap cabling solutions... argh...

fking s-video only equipment - good but whats the point? sync on green - why bother - just have a seperate sync line ffs? Grumble grumble ... sorry, some past difficulties haunting me ...

Someone needs to sell screw in terminal scart plugs ... you can get vga ones...

Lol, glad I don't know anywhere near as much as you. Life sounds difficult with all that info in your head.

If you have an XRGB2+, you could always give the PS2 a spin using a component cable.

Actually, I have a component cable for PS2 and it was the first thing I tried a long time ago. IIRC it doesn't look that hot, and the framerate was particularly choppy on speedy backgrounds (best example being the opening stage of Gradius V - you could see the break up quite obviously.)
Despite the wobbly top bit of the picture, the Scart was very neat by comparison. Dunno, you've spurred me on to give it another test now, lest my eyes have deceived me.

[Strider77]

It shouldn't look any choppier..... look at a few 240p titles. I use component on my XRGB3. Granted I had to tweak it a bit for use with component via the picture settings. But that was all just color tweaks.

This is an old pic via the XRGB2+ and component with SSFT and SF@2. As you can see the results are quite good (especiallu considering these are pics from a cam and still don't do the image total justice). I played GV on the XRGB this way and there were no frame rate issues, just the usual less than stellar handling of 480i.

The XRGB2+ was my 1st unit though and has long been replaced by a XRGB2 and XRGB3 now. But I know those pics were used with component and the XRGB2+.

[Skykid]

Looks good, what's the component running on, PS2?

EDIT: Also, so you reckon the XRGB2+ is inferior to the other two? I always thought the picture I got with my SFC was truly stunning.

[Strider77]

Yeah, PS2 is the only system I have connected with component; it's so I can also pass through hi-res for 480p titles. No cable swapping or menu flipping that way.

The XRGB3 lets you get rid of the shaky sync, but other than that it just has a lot of bells and whistles that make it really easy for my set up. Easier anyway, especially with the dreamcast.... I can chose 240p up to 480p with no cable switching or disconnecting. I love it despite it's quirks. I loved the XRGB2+ though when I had it though. I just have the XRGB2 for PCB use.

Super Famicom looks fine on XRGB3 also.

[speedlolita]

My PS2 is perfect via my XRGB-2+ with official RGB cable and that EU to JP adaptor.

Here's the Saturn RGB cable I use on my This is COOL machine to get a perfect image that doesn't drop. If you have a modded EU Saturn though you'll want another cable:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sega-Saturn-RGB-S ... 017wt_1139

[Fudoh]

Also, so you reckon the XRGB2+ is inferior to the other two?

the XRGB2+'s output is a bit less stable than the XRGB-3's output. If you eventually can see this depends on your display though. If you're happy with your SFC's picture, there's no reason to switch. With the right cables you're able to to achieve just the same results from all other systems as well. Some sources (especially a modded PC Engine) are even much less problematic on the 2plus.

[Skykid]

Also, so you reckon the XRGB2+ is inferior to the other two?

the XRGB2+'s output is a bit less stable than the XRGB-3's output. If you eventually can see this depends on your display though. If you're happy with your SFC's picture, there's no reason to switch. With the right cables you're able to to achieve just the same results from all other systems as well. Some sources (especially a modded PC Engine) are even much less problematic on the 2plus.

Thanks for the info guys, and for that ebay link SL. I'm not too fussy about switching the XRGB2+ (took me long enough to get one) but you have all inspired me to go back and try some connections other than just scart.
I'll get around to testing that EU Scart on my Saturn tonight and see what it looks like.

[speedlolita]

Saturn is the most sexual looking RGB signal I've fed to my XRGB-2+.

[Strider77]

I'm not too fussy about switching the XRGB2+ (took me long enough to get one) but you have all inspired me to go back and try some connections other than just scart.

Don't feel obligated to... I just use component due to my set up and less cable swapping ect.

[Skykid]

Plugged in the Saturn via Euro scart after my frustrating PannyQ jaunt and made myself feel better. Beautiful picture (a little hard on the eyes if you're playing 10 player bomberman though - too much shimmering.)

Guess the custom JP ones are going to have to go back. Sigh.