Any RPG fans here?

[Ganelon]

Well, at least it doesn't match dual-wielding shields. Just envisioning it, that's got to be a bigger fashion faux pas than wearing socks with sandals.

[cj iwakura]

Not really worth its own thread, but Nier's boss fights have very interesting bullet hell battles.

The enemies fire off metric tons of spherical shots.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Wearing socks with sandals is FANTASTIC.

[BryanM]

Wearing socks with sandals is FANTASTIC.

THANK YOU

Sometimes they just get cold but you'd like some ventilation to ease up on the cesspooliness

[Cthulhu]

I'm looking forward to Tales of Graces F - I adored Tales of Vesperia and so I'm pretty excited for this one. Actually, the only RPG since Vesperia I really go into was Xenoblade...

Weird, I could have sworn I bought a couple others. I've probably got them sitting on a shelf somewhere gathering dust... *sigh*

[BryanM]

At first I was kind of interested in Hyperdimension Neptunia, thinking it might be a teeny bit like SEGA Fantasy or Michael Fantasy.

But the vids seem disappointing. Random animu chicks and lolis with tits slapped on, massive load times, and long combo attacks. Why select "fight" and animate one attack that takes a second when you can select fight fight fight fight fight fight fight and animate one attack that takes 40 seconds?

Well, maybe some day...

[BulletMagnet]

At first I was kind of interested in Hyperdimension Neptunia, thinking it might be a teeny bit like SEGA Fantasy or Michael Fantasy.

Well, supposedly you can summon Alex Kidd as a special attack, so there is that.

As for the game, I can see why a lot are put off by it, but I was able to enjoy Trinity Universe in spite of its flaws so I'll probably do okay with this one too, especially with the industry send-ups to serve as additional distractions. Idea Factory is a rather mystifying developer, though...they've got the nerd appeal and charm factors that so many others struggle with down pat, not to mention some attention-worthy concepts, but still seem to have trouble nailing many of the basics after all these years.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Blimey, the masturbation minigame in Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together is nothing short of fascinating. The lot got a little bit better once I:

a) gained access to the resurrecting class and spell (would make more sense if some kind or revival mechanics was available from the very beginning)

b) discoverd the penalty for loading a savestate in the midst of a battle (no idea whether it's a bug or some cunning, elaborate solution on the developer's part).

I even started to sort of semi-give a toss about the story, who killed who and all that Monty Python and the Holy Grail stuff. Nevertheless, although it's the most po-faced jRPG I played since Valkyrie Profile, it still feels like spat out by some random jRPG generator with goofy skits set to zero. The PSP remake had better have some tweaks, otherwise another exhumation of it won't make much sense.

[Ganelon]

I'm not sure what tweaks are needed; maybe a slightly more fleshed out story, esp. for the neutral path. Anyway, there's no penalty for loading in battle. Unless you're referring to how it always rolls the same odds with the same actions, in which case I have to appreciate the developers' foresight on preventing cheating.

As for Revivify, the game really doesn't want you to rely on that except as a last resort. That's why it's so easy to miss on one path and you get no other chances.

[BryanM]

I think FFT was a better balanced game (yeah yeah...) in that you can get through it, in general, with no grinding. I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of a defense stat, and the lack of counter attacks from monsters, which magnify any gap in power by a hella lot. "Kill them all with arrows", is boring.

... The design of TO's damage systems are also a nightmare, like a kabillion knobs to turn. I also really don't like how leveling up in specific classes is necessary to not screw yourself later.

Anyway.. all jRPGs are created by a random scenario generator. The quality of a jRPG is mostily determined by how zany they allow these skits to be -

"I've got some good news and I've got some bad news for ya mister. The good news, is we found this Dino Fang. You can make an awesome weapon out of it! The bad news... we found it in your wife's heart."

"My love is my sword!"
"If I were you, I'd stay away from thoughts like that.."

[BulletMagnet]

I think FFT was a better balanced game

This frightens me greatly.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm not sure what tweaks are needed; maybe a slightly more fleshed out story, esp. for the neutral path.

For starters, since I'm supposed to do the masturbation thing rather a lot, it'd be nice if the AI wasn't so handicapped. It doesn't use certain skills AT ALL. I can poison the hostile party and yet the bloke who has a staff with the Clear skill attached handy won't use it even though he's got nothing else to take care of at the moment. They don't summon the protective deities either. Suspension of disbelief goes through the window. I have other complaints too, but just can't be bothered typing it all down.

Anyway, there's no penalty for loading in battle.

The savestates don't remember character and equipment stats temporary boosts and ground stats temporary modifications, or maybe remember them when they feel like. That's quite a penalty as I'm the only one using those features - my handicapped adversary doesn't even bother. I caught the game breaking my tactics like that once and don't trust tha savestates anymore.

Unless you're referring to how it always rolls the same odds with the same actions, in which case I have to appreciate the developers' foresight on preventing cheating.

Don't know about the odds, but it certainly not always remembers all the conditions.

As for Revivify, the game really doesn't want you to rely on that except as a last resort. That's why it's so easy to miss on one path and you get no other chances.

All I know is that the gameplay is more entertaining now as I don't have to reload savestates quite as frequently as before. The wealth of available tactics is greater. There's more game in the game so to speak.

I think a lot of that has to do with the lack of a defense stat, and the lack of counter attacks from monsters, which magnify any gap in power by a hella lot. "Kill them all with arrows", is boring.

There's at least one class of dudes pretty good at direct attacking as they respond with a counterattack to counterattack. Unfortunately, like most good things in Tactics Ogre, they become available a little late in the day.

The design of TO's damage systems are also a nightmare, like a kabillion knobs to turn. I also really don't like how leveling up in specific classes is necessary to not screw yourself later.

You just have to experiment with the classes. I found some of them being downright crap. Luckily converting one class to another is free (as far as I can tell).

Anyway.. all jRPGs are created by a random scenario generator. The quality of a jRPG is mostily determined by how zany they allow these skits to be -

"I've got some good news and I've got some bad news for ya mister. The good news, is we found this Dino Fang. You can make an awesome weapon out of it! The bad news... we found it in your wife's heart."

"My love is my sword!"
"If I were you, I'd stay away from thoughts like that.."

Yeah, it's not like removal of super deformed facial expressions and shiny crystals will make your game deep and serious. The more I play Tactics Ogre, the more I appreciate Suikoden II (which had somewhat similar story to tell, but did so in more entertaining way).

[BryanM]

You just have to experiment with the classes. I found some of them being downright crap. Luckily converting one class to another is free (as far as I can tell).

I meant that more as a mess from a design point of view. There's a gillion stats, a lot of them with overlapping effects. Such as strength and vitality adding to defense. A sane designer might want to keep the number of relevant stats to under 6... (Though you might consider the "plot armor" stat as awesome..)

From a player's point of view, almost every class is crap. A tiny bit of that is leveling/outfitting guys incorrectly (turning a knight into a sword master and loading him with armor), but it is a failure. Monsters that might do less damage than your warriors, but have a 0% accuracy rating, that's just appalling.

It's not even like you can think of them as a challenge, like an all-monster party in the Saga series (or... that FFT game) is, since you can only bring two of them in your party at a time.

[Ganelon]

Grinding isn't necessary in LUCT but you need to have a good grasp of unit requirements & ratio (as you suggested, Archers are at a noticeable advantage and more strigent classes don't equate to usefulness), appropriate weight distribution (wearing all-Balder armor is normally a death wish), and AI tendencies (yeah, it doesn't account for some stuff). Admittedly, all that probably means no grinding won't be possible in the first couple of runthroughs. Compared to FFT, I'd say LUCT is the more even game where there's a gradual ramp in difficulty (excepting the infamous hostage situations that were born here) and even game-breaking tricks take effort to accomplish.

Anyway, I wasn't aware of those issues with savestates but that's interesting to hear. How exactly did you determine that temporary status changes disappeared? Consistent changes in damage?

As far as reviving allowing more options, so would removing permadeath (with the new version supposedly having an FFT-esque 3-turn death system). It encourages the use of suicide runs (finishing off a strong enemy with a unit close to death, who'll get killed during the enemy phase), but that again is clearly not what LUCT wants to emphasize (except at great cost to the player). You've just got to accept that some SRPG creators strictly enforced cautious play (Fire Emblem) and some were forgiving towards aggressive/reckless play (Shining Force).

I do wish they added more to the story though. As is, the intermission segments are mostly interesting interactions with helpings of story instead of scenes specifically used to further the plot (even the early Denim-Lans interaction should be a clue the main story itself is second to characterization). There's a calmness because you know a battle won't start up yet also an uneasiness as you try to determine where you're at now. LUCT originated this style of cutscenes (as well as the whole tactical SRPG sub-genre) and it still works really well IMO. I like Suikoden II's epic scale (interesting how LUCT never tries to evoke that) but I think it's sort of unfair to compare that to a traditional JRPG where your focus is almost entirely on advancing to the next plot piece (until the endgame optional quests).

[BryanM]

Wheel of Fortune looks kind of nice. The new Rogue class looks like he can set up traps on the field which is chibi-level of all kinds of adorable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0ARw6daIg0 - Clears up the very simple hitler/stalin/churchill/other guy plot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vay2zDcKA8E - Start of the game. AI moves a bit faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yky2iR2PLTA - Classes appear to have been consolidated and made gender neutral. Especially obvious with the witch casting a lightning bolt. I'm sure monsters will still be screwed however. Some things can never change.

Also reading around on it, it seems like each character is allowed to die three times before running out of plot armor and dying for realzz.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Anyway, I wasn't aware of those issues with savestates but that's interesting to hear. How exactly did you determine that temporary status changes disappeared? Consistent changes in damage?

On that snowfield map where you have to rescue the blind swordmaster (that suicidal moron), I invoked Zoshonell's blessing, saved and cast Heat upon the guy. He still had to deal with two infantrymen on his own, which seemed possible, if slightly below 50% possibility. I kept reloading the savestate, grew tired of it and saved a bit later, having already cast the Heat. After reloading THAT save, he wasn't able to take down a soldier in two strikes anymore. Again, I kept trying, but he wasn't inflicting as much damage as before. Conclusion - the savestate failed to remember Heat (perhaps Zoshonell's blessing too, or both). Who knows how many hardships I endured up until that point because of broken savestates then? Maybe it was just a rarely occuring glitch, but I don't feel like dissecting the matter any further.

As far as reviving allowing more options, so would removing permadeath (with the new version supposedly having an FFT-esque 3-turn death system). It encourages the use of suicide runs (finishing off a strong enemy with a unit close to death, who'll get killed during the enemy phase), but that again is clearly not what LUCT wants to emphasize (except at great cost to the player). You've just got to accept that some SRPG creators strictly enforced cautious play (Fire Emblem) and some were forgiving towards aggressive/reckless play (Shining Force).

So maybe if the loadings were shorter (shoddy PSX port doesn't help) and I could speed up the cutscenes, the game over screen and whatnot, I would be more fond of it all. Or maybe a spell rewinding time back a turn or two would be less bothersome? It's fantasy after all. All this reloading was just fatiguing and I fail to see it as good game design. Especially when I have to repeat mundane stuff like watching my dudes trudge through the mud or up the hill again and again.
Revivify still takes some tactics to apply, so would time rewinding skill. Reloading procedure takes none and is just not handled very gracefully by this game. I could name a few games where you die and reload a lot, but it doesn't come with this much unattractive filler.

I do wish they added more to the story though. As is, the intermission segments are mostly interesting interactions with helpings of story instead of scenes specifically used to further the plot (even the early Denim-Lans interaction should be a clue the main story itself is second to characterization). There's a calmness because you know a battle won't start up yet also an uneasiness as you try to determine where you're at now. LUCT originated this style of cutscenes (as well as the whole tactical SRPG sub-genre) and it still works really well IMO. I like Suikoden II's epic scale (interesting how LUCT never tries to evoke that) but I think it's sort of unfair to compare that to a traditional JRPG where your focus is almost entirely on advancing to the next plot piece (until the endgame optional quests).

If you mean the manner of storytelling emulated by FFT and Vagrant Story, I just find it clumsy. Well, not as subtle as they probably thought it was. Doesn't do the suspense and drama thing very well for me. There's nothing cheaper than seriousness, but to make me care about the characters takes something more than what those games have in store (I've yet to finish any of them, admittedly). Horses for courses I guess. The reason why I still didn't get rid of the octopus is that I want to keep somebody I have developed kind of attachment to in the game.

[Ganelon]

Well, it's not really necessary to reload in LUCT, just as dodonpachi isn't a credit feeder (incidentally, I'd say LUCT takes longer to clear in that manner than ddp). But if you do need to reload, then the PS version, while certainly the the slowest loading of the 3 versions, is also the only one that even allows you to do so in-game in the first place. Only there do you get reusable in-battle saves (with no known issues) whereas you have to trick the SS version using 3rd party memory carts to hold more than 1 in-battle save at a time and the SFC version offers no option to repeatedly reload in-battle (maybe through the use of the Turbo File). Once again, the creators followed FE's lead in trying to force you to learn the game and not rely on crutches.

Forced cutscenes are never ideal so I do hope they allow you to skip those in the new version (since you can just watch them at your leisure in the Warren Report anyway). I don't remember any overly long cutscenes before you can save but I guess any at all is a hassle. As for the substance of the plot, I like that it attempts to explain believable politics, not the laughable "serious yet childish" betrayal and intrigue found in games like Vandal Hearts and Growlanser II where the plot feels amateurish.

In any case, LUCT isn't a carefree game, that's for sure. Hell Gate on the SFC exemplifies the focus and skill required where you're forced to abuse Dragon Magic, don't get healed up, can't save, have to run through 100 floors, must start from the ground up everytime, and pretty much any mistake means you'll be redoing a hell of a lot of floors. Compare that to the super-friendly Deep Dungeon in FFT where you do get healed up, can save, only need to go through 10 floors, can start on any of them, and with much more pushover enemies - there's no comparison really. And the bonus dungeons pretty much represent what the games are about.

Some players enjoy Fire Emblem's simplicity. Some like FFT's customization. Some like LUCT's focus on straightforward tactics (without the gimmick systems introduced afterward). Some enjoy the adventure that Shining Force II provides. Some want the replay value of Disgaea. I've finished each path of LUCT in every version because I enjoy its style but I can see why others might be turned off by LUCT's unforgiving nature and unique intermissions. To me, that's always been my ideal for SRPG structure, even though some aspects are certainly limited by technology (e.g. area spell effects).

But it looks like this new PSP version is easing off the strictness and give more people a chance. If that's the style that's more popular nowadays and will create a new generation of fans, I'm fine with that.

[CMoon]

I didn't realize there were more DS rpgs coming out in February (one from Atlus no less):

Dragon Quest 6 (yay!)

Radiant Historia (looks pretty damn cool, but just going from a few youtube videos)

[ED-057]

I played the Saturn version of Tactics Ogre up to chapter 3, but found it a bit too annoying. For instance, what on earth is the point of making me arrange my ten dudes on that little grid before each round when I don`t have a clue what I`m going to be facing yet? Also, I think they made the level of the character too strong of a factor compared to class/equipment differences. Being just two levels behind would result in a situation where my knight would attack for some wimpy damage and then receive double that by being punched in the counterattack.

[BryanM]

Yeah, it has terrible balance in the early game. I'd assume the PSP refurbish made it more sane. And I, too, wish they'd just reuse the formation you used in the last battle instead of having to input it in every single time. Really weird busywork.

Dragon Quest 6.... is strangely one of my least favorites. It looked fantastic - but having the mirror worlds be almost identical, and the multiple vehicles that really didn't unlock free roaming - just awkwardly one or two additional areas... Most sickening is I do feel the series was better in the NES era, and I kind of desire a sequel in that sort of aesthetic.

[Ganelon]

I played the Saturn version of Tactics Ogre up to chapter 3, but found it a bit too annoying. For instance, what on earth is the point of making me arrange my ten dudes on that little grid before each round when I don`t have a clue what I`m going to be facing yet? Also, I think they made the level of the character too strong of a factor compared to class/equipment differences. Being just two levels behind would result in a situation where my knight would attack for some wimpy damage and then receive double that by being punched in the counterattack.

It's more for how you want your troops to start up in a realistic manner. At the start of the battle, you have to expect at least 2-3 turns of movement before reaching the enemy. If you want a balanced unit movement, you'd place faster units behind. If you need to level some units up, you can place them in the front row to reach the enemy faster (one square difference often results in one more counterattack and action).

I agree it's not all that effective though. Langrisser's full disclosure placement with actual positional differences made a lot more strategic sense. And yeah, levels matter a lot in the game. If you're 2 levels ahead, you can wreck opponents. Equipment must be balanced by weight. Decking your characters out with Balder equipment is a bad idea.

[BulletMagnet]

Radiant Historia (looks pretty damn cool, but just going from a few youtube videos)

I'm also watching this one, but need more info before putting down cash...I'm still a bit sore after Hexyz Force.

[CMoon]

Radiant Historia (looks pretty damn cool, but just going from a few youtube videos)

I'm also watching this one, but need more info before putting down cash...I'm still a bit sore after Hexyz Force.

I'm also a bit hesitant buying clearly blind, but videos like this make me want to pre-order:

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclu ... ria/709111

[ZOM]

^^Yep, was on the fence too about Radiant Historia, but after watching Aram Jabbari's walkthrough i'll pick it up. Some interesting things were said in that video. I just hope that placing all enemies on the same square proves to be somewhat challenging, or that system will have the potential to get very boring.

[gs68]

Currently playing Strange Journey (an actual Shin Megami Tensei game and not a spinoff like the Persona series). Pretty neat so for, except for one thing:

FUCKING DEMON CONVERSATIONS, HOW DO THEY WORK? It feels like I'm taking an uber-hard multi-choice exam where for every wrong answer, I get shot in the face.

[Obiwanshinobi]

FUCKING DEMON NEGOTIATIONS, HOW DO THEY WORK?

If they are anything like in Persona 2: Innocent Sin and Nocturne/Lucifer's Call, you just need to have the mojo.

[CMoon]

Currently playing Strange Journey (an actual Shin Megami Tensei game and not a spinoff like the Persona series). Pretty neat so for, except for one thing:

FUCKING DEMON CONVERSATIONS, HOW DO THEY WORK? It feels like I'm taking an uber-hard multi-choice exam where for every wrong answer, I get shot in the face.

You can and should get 'Relax Spray' which gives you an extra chance. Beyond that, it is sort of random. You need to know the alignment of the demons and something about their own personality. Failing at all that, after a couple times you should be able to figure out what they want to hear.

When you finish SJ, you should give Etrian Odyssey 3 a spin. Same game engine more or less, though not an SMT game. I'm still working on finishing my first run (though I'm rather close finally), but its one of the few absurdly long rpgs that's really made me want to see it to completion.

[borislaw]

Definitely a fan of a good classical-type RPG. Haven't actually played any RPGs since the early springtime of last year -- which is roughly the time I became addicted to shmups. An apt analogy would be that I gave up smoking reefer so that I could start shooting heroin. The two genres are an interesting foil to one another. In some ways they appear to be direct opposites, yet also they possess many of the same traits. They stand far appart, but occupy common ground.

The main thing I find lacking in RPGs is a real challenge. Whatever challenges exists can typically be overcome by basic level grinding, which of itself is no challenge at all. Of course, shooters (shmups) aren't perfect either; I'm new to the genre, but I can definitely foresee a tiredness arising from a lack of variety and the absence discovery.

Last really great RPG that I played in-depth and loved was Fire Emblem GBA (BlazingSword)--a game definitely in harmony with itself. A more sour note was Paper Mario for GC. I played it through to the end, but never much enjoyed it and was left with general sense of disillusion in console gaming.

[BryanM]

Been playing Phantasy Star 4 again very slowly. The one game ever where dual-wielding shields actually makes sense for a character.

There's a lot to it that I guess I didn't appreciate when it came out. The little in-party conversation option to remind you where you're going and add character to the characters. A sense of some humor. And compared to the piles of crap we get nowadays, the thing moves lightning fast.

The thing that got me started again, besides the rare theme it uses, is how there's a layer of a vancian style skill system added to the characters.

What stinks about the genre as a whole is how one note your units are: you have a priest. If MP means anything in the game, then you save it all for healing spells and that's all he is, his best healing spell. Having charges of separate spells would at least make that guy's offensive options at least mean something. NES Final Fantasy 1+3 did this well too. Those whimpy level 1 fire spells are fantastic for cutting through trash monsters or as a backup for when you're out of good spells. Getting Quake and it's just this monstrous, awesome attack, but that your other spells still mattered, that was great.

I suppose that's probably the greatest contribution MMO's had to the genre. That you shouldn't have to cat ass the same button nonstop.

[dunpeal2064]

I think FFT was a better balanced game "

I agree with this. Did not grind once in this entire game, and any other srpg has required me to

Case in point, trying to play Record of Agarest War. Granted, I am just generally disappointed in this game. Anyone know if it gets better? I still am fighting random battles on the same bland background as the beginning of the game.