Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm appreciation thread (was Proto-DFK)

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Skykid
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Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm appreciation thread (was Proto-DFK)

Post by Skykid »

EDIT: Changed thread title to something that follows the shift in discussion (was 'Proto-DFK')


So after a weekend of non-stop shmupping, Icarus and I have discovered where Cave have drawn their influence for Daifukkatsu.

Prepare to be amazed.

Which other game features the following?:
  • A combo meter that rises when chaining enemies, but changes colour and falls rather than breaks when you're not targeting something?
    A crapload of bombs all over the place?
    Massive point bonuses for proximity (using the laser aura to destroy enemies?)
    A chain which freezes at the end of the stage and carries over to the boss?
    Reusing old sprites?
    A ship that's loaded with bombs, and a ship that has no bombs but builds a huge laser blast by an energy gauge instead?
    Bullet cancels that fill the screen with a scenery obscuring waterfall of enormous medals?
Which ten year old shmup has all of these uncannily similar traits??...









None other than Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm! :)
Last edited by Skykid on Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by njiska »

How many wild tangent threads are you going to start?

Despite that, your observations are intriguing.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Skykid »

njiska wrote:How many wild tangent threads are you going to start?

Despite that, your observations are intriguing.
It may be slightly tongue-in-cheek, but there's actually enough of a weird resemblance between the two to make you wonder... :|

We had played DFK for a long while the night before, practicing stage 5 no miss Ura Boss n' stuff so our heads were full of it, and then the next morning decided to give Bee Storm a go. After about twenty minutes I think one of us mentioned that the chain meter works very similarly (well, almost identically) to DFK. Then little by little other features also started to ping one by one until we were starting to think Cave may have nicked several ideas to shape their new title. Beard-strokingly odd. :)
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Re: Proto-DFK

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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by xris »

^wtf?
This is interesting, I've never played DDP II, or DFK for that matter, so I am unaware of any kind of similarity. I can't really say that I get along too well with DDP though. I have been playing a bit of DOJ BL, and have found that really enjoyable. If it has game play mechanics that they have returned to/been inspired by/ripped off, then maybe I'll give it a look see. Thanks.
edit: being sleepy make poor grammar
Last edited by xris on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Skykid »

Jesus, quit being so anal. Someone get this guy an apron, a feather duster and some antiseptic gloves.
This thread is nothing to do with the 360 port.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by twalden »

I noticed the similarities the first time I played DFK. Got a chuckle out ot it :D
Bee Storm isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. It's rough around the edges, but had some good ideas.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Smraedis »

Also placing yourself on top (or almost) of large enemies/bosses while using laser shot has advantages on both games, on Bee Storm it racks your score up a lot.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by emphatic »

Smraedis wrote:Also placing yourself on top (or almost) of large enemies/bosses while using laser shot has advantages on both games, on Bee Storm it racks your score up a lot.
First thing I thought about then skykid started this comparison. :lol: I kinda regret selling my Bee Storm now.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Skykid »

Smraedis wrote:Also placing yourself on top (or almost) of large enemies/bosses while using laser shot has advantages on both games, on Bee Storm it racks your score up a lot.
Weird you just mentioned that, I was scouring the web for some Bee Storm info and found out about the laser aura points bonus on Wikipedia. I'll add it to the comparison list in the first post, cheers Smraedis. :wink:

For the sake of posterity, it's worth noting that while Bee Storm is a feat in graphics recycling and extremely quirky, it's actually very playable and a lot of fun.
Deceptively easy early on too, compared to the point where the difficulty starts ramping up half way through. Just thought I'd throw that out there, as I nearly always see people ragging on it unduly.

Soundtrack's kinda nifty too.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by drunkninja24 »

Yeah, the only thing I'd truly fault Bee Storm for is the fact that your score doesn't reset upon continuing.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Icarus »

I didn't think much of it when I played it the very first time, back at Insert Coin '09, but after spending some proper time with it this weekend, it's actually quite good fun on its own merits, and oddly compulsive. Thanks for digging it out. ^_^

Bee Storm attempts to be Cave circa Dodonpachi/Guwange/Esprade, but ends up feeling more like Donpachi in all honesty. It is pretty good fun to session for score though, as there is some depth to it despite its prototype standings, and the next time I come down for a bit, we'll have to really go at the game, as we were starting to get quite into it.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Skykid »

Icarus wrote:I didn't think much of it when I played it the very first time, back at Insert Coin '09, but after spending some proper time with it this weekend, it's actually quite good fun on its own merits, and oddly compulsive. Thanks for digging it out. ^_^

Bee Storm attempts to be Cave circa Dodonpachi/Guwange/Esprade, but ends up feeling more like Donpachi in all honesty. It is pretty good fun to session for score though, as there is some depth to it despite its prototype standings, and the next time I come down for a bit, we'll have to really go at the game, as we were starting to get quite into it.
Sounds good, I better get some practice in then (as if adding another shmup to the queue is a good idea.) :oops:
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by esreveR »

njiska wrote:How many wild tangent threads are you going to start?

Despite that, your observations are intriguing.
I'm not Skykid.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by mesh control »

Then why are you responding?
lol
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by brentsg »

Also not Skykid.. whew.. :mrgreen:
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Dave_K. »

I can't tell if this was a rage thread that backfired, or serious thread that realizes DDPII is fun!
Skykid wrote:For the sake of posterity, it's worth noting that while Bee Storm is a feat in graphics recycling and extremely quirky, it's actually very playable and a lot of fun.
Think of it as a licensed arrange mode made by IGS.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by esreveR »

mesh control wrote:Then why are you responding?
njiska seemed to imply Skykid made the thread about MAME devs not completing SH1 emulation.

Well, kind of. "Wild tangent threads" can be loosely interpreted.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by nZero »

Dave_K. wrote:I can't tell if this was a rage thread that backfired, or serious thread that realizes DDPII is fun!
I'm hoping for the latter, it gets some play when it shows up at the MD shmupmeets and I always enjoy taking a shot at it :D

posting in a Skykid thread
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Skykid »

Not sure how you can misinterpret this thread, it's not written in riddles.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by captpain »

A third -- second? -- neglected.
Foreshadowing? A calling back?
A game not emulated, rejected.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by IseeThings »

The problem with DDP2 is that it looks a lot like DDP MicroMachines edition ;-)

The perspective is too forced and seems 'straight' and 'flat' most of the time, and even where they've recycled graphics, they look smaller (maybe due to resolution differences) The explosions are ugly too, and everything just feels a bit weedy. The title screen background is horrible too.

What IGS did do a good job of was actually marketing it, localizing it, making it accessible to people outside of Japan. They have title screens for different regions, detailed how to play screens, internet rank features, practice mode... This is an area in which Cave really fail. IGS also did a good job on the protection, integrating it tightly with the gameplay and actually using it to accelerate bullet processing etc. DDP2 pushes the hardware a lot harder than DDP3 / Ketsui even if it's a far less impressive looking game.

(ignore what you see on Wikipedia, you can't change the region with a Dipswitch on the board, it's provided by the protection device, people have clearly just seen that MAME has a 'dipswitch' for it because they don't emulate the protection device yet)

I'm surprised they didn't respond to criticism and reset the score on later revisions of the game, it does seem to be the most common complaint about it, and it would be a very quick fix to make. I guess they consider it a feature tho, part of trying to make the game more accessible rather than hardcore.

You can see in part why Cave wanted to partner with IGS, but it's not really clear why they simply left IGS to make a game from their old assets. My best guess would be that Cave wanted a tech demonstration for the hardware, to prove it was a viable platform for their games, and offered a decent level of security (which they then chose to ignore)
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by undamned »

Icarus wrote:after spending some proper time with it this weekend, it's actually quite good fun on its own merits, and oddly compulsive. Thanks for digging it out. ^_^.
Yeah, I think it's an entirely enjoyable game if you can mentally divorce it from the series it's supposed to fall into.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by kid aphex »

Skykid wrote:
Jesus, quit being so anal. Someone get this guy an apron, a feather duster and some antiseptic gloves.
This thread is nothing to do with the 360 port.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by StarCreator »

kid aphex wrote:
Skykid wrote:
Jesus, quit being so anal. Someone get this guy an apron, a feather duster and some antiseptic gloves.
This thread is nothing to do with the 360 port.
Elixir is barely human, don't expect much from him.
What does Elixir have to do with anything in this thread?
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Nick420 »

Skykid wrote:Not sure how you can misinterpret this thread, it's not written in riddles.
LOL!
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by kid aphex »

What does Elixir have to do with anything in this thread?
sorry elixir. the avatars and attitudes on this forum are beginning to lose all distinction.
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by dpful »

I'm a huge fan of ddp2. It's got my favorite scraping ever, totally old school, plus great music, density, drama... Lame late 80s looking ships and pilots. Great boss names and collorfull game.

It's almost got first gen neo geo graphics feel. VERY sweet scraping gameplay!
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Vyxx »

kid aphex wrote:
What does Elixir have to do with anything in this thread?
sorry elixir. the avatars and attitudes on this forum are beginning to lose all distinction.
Now everyone is a douchebag :lol:
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Re: Proto-DFK

Post by Skykid »

dpful wrote:I'm a huge fan of ddp2. It's got my favorite scraping ever, totally old school, plus great music, density, drama... Lame late 80s looking ships and pilots. Great boss names and collorfull game.

It's almost got first gen neo geo graphics feel. VERY sweet scraping gameplay!
Do you know what the first shmup was to feature a bullet scraping/points mechanic? We were trying to figure it out on the day.
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