Q: A gamesplayer's mentality and its effects on performance

[Icarus]

Here's a quick thought I would like to pose, and am quite interested to discuss. I was thinking about all the various things that can affect a player during a practice session or high-scoring/ALL attempt (while I was taking a break from Garegga practice), and I got to thinking about a player's mental state and how it affects the way they play. It is my view that it's not just a player's current mental state and train of thought, but previous experiences with games, mental agility and self-confidence that can affect as well.

For instance, I've seen comments along the lines of "I fail because I suck" in relation to a player's overall ability in shooters. It's my view that this lack of self-confidence, as it were, is probably a bigger contributing factor to a player's degradation in skill rather than actually lacking the neccessary abilities to play.

That's just one thought though. Anyone care to discuss their views/ideas?

EDIT: Changed title to make the topic a little clearer.

[Specineff]

I blame age and work, and lack of sleep. Simply put, there is just not enough time or energy left to shmup the way I did before.

[Valgar]

Yes mentallity and dedication are key. I see a lot of "I can't" in everyday life (not just shooters) and these people never get anywhere. That is fine for some though. How can you possibly be a top player if you "know" you can't? Another fault is blaming anything but yourself. You know, like how a game "broke" its own engine just to kill you.

[shiftace]

I think stuff like self-confidence and mental agility overlaps with, if not outright belongs to, "current mental state." Personally, my best results have come when I'm not cocentrating on the game. My personal suspicion (superstition?), though, is that doing well while not concentrating is a symptom, not a cause, and that it signifies that whatever mental processes I need to play the game are all cooperating as best they possibly can. So my conscious process doesn't need to supervise them any more, and it gets to wander off, at least until the parts of my brain that are engaged by the game fall out of sync. I wish I knew how to induce that state, it's fun but fleeting. Or maybe it would lose its fun if one knew how to manipulate it, just like everything else.

Somewhat related -- I was just going to make a big crybaby post about why I hate Cho Ren Sha, and maybe it fits here:

I had some decent scores at it long ago, I discovered that the computer on which I played was a little too slow, so I threw those scores out and decided that I ought to try and get as far without the 5% or so slowdown I had got before. And I suddenly couldn't get anywhere, couldn't spin powerups 4 times in 5, couldn't get through the first stage without getting hit, etc. I assumed it was that tiny speedup interfering with my experience, and I felt pretty lame. But after observing a lot of lameness across a half dozen games, I determined that the Vaio keyboard I was using had more to do with it. The keys on that board stay down for several frames after my finger comes up, which makes small tapping movements all but impossible. Playing Cho Ren Sha for score is basically a 45 minute exercise in small taps, so I went and swapped keyboards.

Now I try to play PC shmups on the famously loud, indestructible IBM Model M keyboard. Perhaps it's not the best thing for making small taps, but it's worlds better than the Vaio keyboard, and I'm young enough that my hands don't get sore from using it for hours on end. And I actually do better at Cho Ren Sha now. But I still can't spin powerups consistently, and since I've set myself on playing for score, I'm going to spin if I'm going to play at all. And that ruins the game completely for me. It's like the whole challenge of the game is in spinning powerups, at least until 2-3 or later (maybe 1-5 if you don't like to bomb, like me).

So, I forget what my point was, originally. Oh right, it was just to vent, at first, so thanks to whoever read all that. Mental states... well, I didn't like Cho Ren Sha when I was having keyboard troubles, and then I hoped that changing the keyboard would fix everything and let me prove my doubtless godlike skills that until then had been thwarted by a mere obstinate physical device, and I felt a little let down when that delusion had to go. So I blame the game instead. And there's this whole bit of trying to catch up to prior scores, so I'm not really playing the game for fun like I ideally should, and I bet that's making me worse at it. That's a bit relevant.

(Oh, and just after today's frustrating Cho Ren Sha session, I whacked the keyboard hard enough that I couldn't use the arrow keys for 5 minutes (Model M = indestructible, hand =/= indestructible). And then I went and played Parsec47 for a change of pace, and I did unusually well at it, sore hand and all. This story is happy end.)

[BulletMagnet]

Heh heh, like a moth to flame, here I come...

Most people here know that I don't consider myself a great shmupper, to say the least, but in my case I'm not really all that concerned with 1CCing and bragging about high scores and whatnot to begin with...I'm content to hang around the bottom of the high score threads and shoot the breeze (as opposed to The Core ), since I simply don't have the motivation to devote so much of my time to a videogame so as to be ridiculously good at it. Of course I do try to improve at least somewhat at games as I play them, but I really don't "train" on games, I just look at my shelf and pull out the one that I feel like playing for the moment. So in my case, at least, I don't think that my opinion of myself as a low-ranking shmupper is really "holding me back," it's just an acceptance of the kind of player I'm content to be. In the eyes of some that probably disqualifies me from even bothering with the genre to begin with, but hey, either way I'm enjoying myself.

[it290]

Well, I posted something similar on a topic in the OT section a couple days ago, so I'll just reiterate. I think confidence has a big effect on shmupping, although for me, it's not so much my confidence as a player (which I don't really think about), but my confidence in a given situation / bullet pattern. If I start thinking 'I can't do this', I usually won't.

[DeBurgo]

I find that my skill at shooters is more tempermental than any other type of game I play. Normally I'd say "Well, if you just play the game long enough, you'll eventually get good at it, regardless of your confidence at the game," but that isn't so with 2d shooters. You'll invariably hit a wall if you think at any moment you can't win, or that you suck. They're the only type of game that you really seem to need to put in your "soul" and complete concentration.

[Blade]

I tend to play shmups when the urge to play mecha/destroy things comes up and needs to be sated.

[professor ganson]

I was tired tonight and had very little confidence that I would reach my goal of getting to level 4-1 in Shikigami II. I was thinking, "There's no way I'll do it tonight. I need to do this after some coffee." And yet I managed finally to get to level 4.

In the last couple years I've lacked confidence in my ability to lecture without writing out my entire lecture word-for-word. Last year on the very first day of a class I had never taught before I forgot to bring my notes to class, and I had to do a rather complicated lecture all from memory. I was completely freaked out, thinking I was going to screw up, and it went quite well.

In spite of examples like this, I always try to get myself pumped up when I have to face a big challenge. I tell myself: "You're going to kick ass. Be confident." So a big part of me is inclined to think that being confident is going to have a positive impact on my success.

But there's a big difference for me between being confident and being competitive. I think I was a competitive person in my 20s. I think it mattered to me to be better than others in my field. No doubt I'm still a bit more competitive than I'd like to be, but in any case I much prefer to think of myself as confident and not competitive. It really doesn't matter to me that I be better than the next person. (Then again, I'm not at that point in my career where I have to beat out scores of other people to get into school, to get a job, to keep my job...)

Anyway, I have to end these inconclusive ramblings because there's a big storm coming...

[TGK]

Today I got out of work at 5:50, which isn't bad I guess, it's 9 hour day instead of 8. But after I got home I couldn't open my eyes, and I slept.

I think it's mostly work and other things in life that drains me. If I pick up a shmup now I'll die in 30 seconds or less.

In British Columbia (or is it Canada in general?!), software companies don't have to pay overtime. So if they give you impossible deadlines, you naturally have to overtime to get it to work, and that effort in turn gives the boss the impression that you are really THAT good, which you are really not.

But if not shmup, I don't know what kind of game to play at this point. Almost any games now feels like work just to install and start up.

[neorichieb1971]

I play games, I do not learn them hence my abilities never go beyond average at best.

To me a game is a game and I can do it or I can't.. And if I can't its because i'm done with it before I did a 1CC or whatever.

If I had my way, all games would be like Mario 64 or Outrun.. Where eventually your going to do it no matter your capabilities. A shmup would be the same. The enemies would come and I would take them out by learning the level over about 20 mins.. Within 5 days I would probably 1CC it just through memorization. Then I would improve my score.

The way shooters are now, they are far too hard for me to take seriously to complete a 1CC. I would have to play them for months and dedicate hours and hours to a game. For me thats just not possible.

Fair play to those who have the time, but gaming is just not that important. For me its like drinking beer, I enjoy it, but I don't have to drink 10 pints a day to prove myself I can handle it. I'm still enjoying myself and having fun.

Before the age of the internet I thought I was good at games, now I feel like a rookie.

Basically I believe everyone should be able to do a 1CC on these shmups and you should have 3 lives, 1 credit. The art should be in the scoring not the completing.

[system11]

I think we have two types of player now in the genre.

1) The shmup-dojo people. These are the ones (like Icarus) who put a lot of time into studying these games and practising them, the people who actively create strategy threads, try to squeeze out every point from a game.

2) People who just play them to enjoy, and/or to try and get respectable scores - but who won't feel particularly bothered if they don't. These people are probably more concerned with just trying to beat a game, if they can, one day.

I know there's people scattered inbetween, lots of extra points to make here but I'm too lazy to do so. Suffice to say we have some people who take scoring/etc much more seriously than others. I play them to enjoy, I try to beat my own scores and equal those of other non-dojo players - but at the end of the day I'm not going to bother memorising enemy formations and watching replays. Turns gaming into hard work, which doesn't make sense to me - I do hard work all day, at work.

[Randorama]

I think we have two types of player now in the genre.

1) The shmup-dojo people. These are the ones (like Icarus) who put a lot of time into studying these games and practising them, the people who actively create strategy threads, try to squeeze out every point from a game.

2) People who just play them to enjoy,

"Shmup-dojo people" like me find funny to dissect a game in detail, by the way.

I know there's people scattered inbetween, lots of extra points to make here but I'm too lazy to do so. Suffice to say we have some people who take scoring/etc much more seriously than others. I play them to enjoy, I try to beat my own scores and equal those of other non-dojo players - but at the end of the day I'm not going to bother memorising enemy formations and watching replays.

It sounds like you take for granted that the shmup-dojo way isn't fun...because you don't like it.If this is the case, you're making the mistake of considering everyone to think like you do, of course....your way is not the only one

Turns gaming into hard work, which doesn't make sense to me - I do hard work all day, at work.

Personally i like to go shmup-dojo when i like a game: i choose an engine and a challenge and see what i can do.I like constant practice and see that i can improve and find new things, but once it becomes a mechanical and unchallenging process, like work, i give up. On work, i get very low freedom (maybe for the moment, it may change with time, given my field), whereas on games i do as i like, at my own pace.

About the original shmups-professionals (i.e. Japanese players): when there are competitions, a lot of people compete because of the context (i.e. highly competitive culture and you're a loser if you're not the first, liking a thing doesn't matter), but there are also the ones who play a game for years because they like it (which are extremely few).

Personally, i know that i will never be the best player around (including the so-called japanese ninjas) because of my lack of precision.Who cares? As long as i see that i can discover new things and roughly put them in practice, i'm happy, screw those extra 10 points done by ages of practice.

[howmuchkeefe]

I do best when I hypnotize myself and concentrate wholly upon the game. If I break the state, I'm more likely to not see bullets and overcompensate when making evasive maneuvers.

[D]

I think that for me it is all about how much I want to play a game. This then automatically tells my body how much energy may be used to concentrate.

For instance a game that you haven't played in a while but you know you love, you will be glued to the tv.

[bpe]

<i>. So my conscious process doesn't need to supervise them any more, and it gets to wander off, at least until the parts of my brain that are engaged by the game fall out of sync. I wish I knew how to induce that state, it's fun but fleeting.</i>

Ah yes.. The infamous "you stop kicking ass the moment you realize you're kicking ass" effect

[D]

<i>. So my conscious process doesn't need to supervise them any more, and it gets to wander off, at least until the parts of my brain that are engaged by the game fall out of sync. I wish I knew how to induce that state, it's fun but fleeting.</i>

Ah yes.. The infamous "you stop kicking ass the moment you realize you're kicking ass" effect

You have to remember not to think about anything

[Blade]

No, seriously, I think there's a third category besides the Shmup-Dojo Folks and the Play-to-Enjoy Folks:

The best way to describe it, in the words of BlackMage

"Urge to Kill....RISING!!!"

You could called this the Manic Destructive Type who throw all their emotions into the shmup while playing it, saying DIE MUTHA F*CKA all the while.

These are also the kind to throw their controllers if they lose and/or bang on their systems if they do not work and/or throw discs and cartridges.

Or you could just call it the Blow-em-ups Category... BLUPs LOL

[BulletMagnet]

It sounds like you take for granted that the shmup-dojo way isn't fun...

I don't think that's what he means. I think he could have possibly also phrased "playing to enjoy (as in, not too seriously)" as perhaps something along the lines of "Playing without making mastery a necessity." It's not that "casual" players have "more fun" with their games, it's just that knowing a game completely inside and out is not one of our goals, so we play only because we want to have fun. "Experts" want to play both for enjoyment and for mastery.

I don't think he assumes that playing "hardcore style" isn't fun for anyone...if that was true, then no one would do it.

[Randorama]

It sounds like you take for granted that the shmup-dojo way isn't fun...

I don't think that's what he means. I think he could have possibly also phrased "playing to enjoy (as in, not too seriously)" as perhaps something along the lines of "Playing without making mastery a necessity." It's not that "casual" players have "more fun" with their games, it's just that knowing a game completely inside and out is not one of our goals, so we play only because we want to have fun. "Experts" want to play both for enjoyment and for mastery.

I don't think he assumes that playing "hardcore style" isn't fun for anyone...if that was true, then no one would do it.

Ehr, no, wait a second: to my knowledge, there is a certain type of hardcore player that plays for competition, even if he hates what he does (i'm not even talking about videogames or Japanese players only). However, implying "i do play for fun because i skip the shmup-dojo approach" is a bit solypsistic. "We play because we want to have fun" applies to anyone who plays a game because he enjoys what he does with the game, be it mastering or a quick blast. Doing something you don't like just because you feel compelled by external pressure to be the first is pretty masochististic.

I have a lot of fun when i know an engine well, in fact i tend to appreciate more games that i play well, than games that i don't (which is mirrored in my reviews, honestly).

[BulletMagnet]

to my knowledge, there is a certain type of hardcore player that plays for competition, even if he hates what he does...

Well, to my knowledge there's no one much like that on this forum, at least (just a few odd cases, including my own, on the "why did I beat this game?" thread in off-topic ), so I don't think Mr. Flowers was accusing any of the "hardcore" types around here of being masochists or anything like that. Seriously, I'm about the least hardcore player there is around here, so if there were any such sentiments therein I'd notice 'em, trust me.

[professor ganson]

Of course, even those of us like BulletMagnet and bloodflowers who are on the "principally for fun" side are probably much more disciplined and intense about gaming than your average gamer. Speaking for myself, not all of my gaming time is pleasant. My goal of 1ccing Shiki II someday is a lot like writing a paper. It typically takes over a year for me to write a good paper. Some of that time spent is pleasant, some isn't. It'll probably take that long to finish Shiki II, and not all of the time will be pleasant. But I'm sure that it won't get as unpleasant as it became for ExMosquito when he was burning himself out on Strikers II. (I heard he hardly plays shmups anymore as a result.)

[Randorama]

to my knowledge, there is a certain type of hardcore player that plays for competition, even if he hates what he does...

Well, to my knowledge there's no one much like that on this forum, at least (just a few odd cases, including my own, on the "why did I beat this game?" thread in off-topic ), so I don't think Mr. Flowers was accusing any of the "hardcore" types around here of being masochists or anything like that. Seriously, I'm about the least hardcore player there is around here, so if there were any such sentiments therein I'd notice 'em, trust me.

...I would wait for bloodf's reply, though.


And since Icarus changed the title: "It's" is the abbreviate form of "it is", "its" is a pronoun, you should check your spelling (ahem)

Personally, in response to the original post, i skip the self-esteem process: if understand how to do a thing, i try it out, if know that "omg it's just 50% of the WR i suck!" who cares, i go step by step. If i can do well today, fine, but in case i don't, there's tomorrow. I can improve and learn, so there's no point for self-deprecation or absurd beliefs in zomg natural talent and the zonez00rz (i should post some bibliography on the subject...)

[Icarus]

And since Icarus changed the title: "It's" is the abbreviate form of "it is", "its" is a pronoun, you should check your spelling (ahem)

Pedantic git

On topic:
Welcome To The Dojo
For me, I believe that a player's competitive tendencies are a big influence on whether they play "no-brainer" (to coin a term, can't think of a better one), or "shmup-dojo". Regardless of skill level, if a player has a big enough competitive streak, then it drives them to learn a game in-depth with regards to stage strategies, complex systems and their manipulation and so on.

I think that's the one thing I like about shooters. You don't need direct netplay to compete with others. Although I acknowledge my own skills, I also acknowledge that there are far better players out there than I am. But my desire to catch up, equal and (maybe someday) better these players is what drives me to play the "dojo" way. And the really weird thing is, I kind of like it.

I'm not sure there is a huge divide between "no-brainer" and "dojo" to be honest. Everyone has a different level of competitiveness, dedication and so on. It usually takes just one particular game to change a player from "no-brainer" to "dojo" IMO, and it's just as fun blasting as it is studying a game. Different strokes for different folks.

I have a few more thoughts but I'll keep them for the time being. I'm open to other thoughts, counter-arguments and such here though.

[BulletMagnet]

Dunno if the term "no-brainer" will be appreciated by my fellow peasants, we prefer "Dojo-Challanged."

[Randorama]

Pedantic git

I love you too

I think that's the one thing I like about shooters. You don't need direct netplay to compete with others. Although I acknowledge my own skills, I also acknowledge that there are far better players out there than I am. But my desire to catch up, equal and (maybe someday) better these players is what drives me to play the "dojo" way. And the really weird thing is, I kind of like it.

Why it should be weird...?

It's just this, why learning should be unfun? I don't think the reply is based on shmups only, at least in scope. Beside that, i try to find out what's the maximum score and if i can get it, i tend to ignore other people...of course, if i can be perfect at the game, i'm also the best, but i find it to be a side-effect.Let's say that i prefer to be excellent than the "best": this is not the case for shmups, usually, but sometimes "the best" is still not good.

[Rob]

You no brains and your "fun."

[professor ganson]

The term "no-brainer" won't work because it makes us sound like the people who "just wanna blow shit up."
Rando is right: learning is fun, including learning about shmups. But given limitations in my time and skill, I will never be as hardcore as Rando. Maybe "softcore" is more appropriate, but who likes to be called "soft"?

[Nemo]

Being successful in shmups does have a lot to do with confidence, because if you believe you can do something, the chance of it happening is greatly improved. It's not a revolutionary idea, yet I think a lot of people are afraid to work for a goal in shmups beause they view the task as too daunting and essentially trying is wasting time, so they rather just shoot things for the heck of it. The perfect balance is to work towards something so you can truly appreciate the game while still enjoying what you're doing because the people that "have" to get that score or clear, are the ones most likely to get burned out and disinterested in the genre.

[Icarus]

Like I said, I couldn't think of a better term when I wrote that post.

Then again, maybe "enthusiasts" for those who play but don't dedicate to learning, while "hardcore" for those that do? Then again, I'm not really keen on the term "hardcore" either, since everyone who plays shmups - and posts on this and other shmupping forums - can be described as "hardcore" shmuppers.

Learning shmups is fun, that's why I do it. IMO there is a fine line between "fun" and "work" though, and usually when it turns to "work", I play something else. The unusual thing about me is that, while other players would rather play a different genre when they feel the shmupping strain, I move on to a different shmup. I don't think I've played any other genre seriously for several years now (with the exception of games like Viewtiful Joe and Katamari Damashii) but for me, shmupping has somehow become an integrated part of my daily lifestyle.