Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

[Lance Boyle]

2. Ketsui's 360 version is better.

Elaborate, with regard to the core arcade game itself and nothing else.

[Despatche]

I can't decide whether that post is worse or better than the original post (that it comes close is a feat to begin with)

Lance Boyle: That's exactly the thing, it really can't be. The port itself is very good, featuring practice mode and all that, and then you have the Arrange Mode which is generally considered one of the best in a CAVE port. And there was a lot of love put into that port.

As a whole, it's a good port worth buying if you have the money, whether you buy it to support CAVE or whether you buy it some months down the line. If you want to just skip it and play it via MAME or whatever, then do that. But it's kinda dickish with a healthy sprinkle of wrong to say anything really bad about the port then. I guess that's this community.

[bcass]

The port itself is very good, featuring practice mode and all that, and then you have the Arrange Mode which is generally considered one of the best in a CAVE port. And there was a lot of love put into that port.

As well as practice mode, don't forget leaderboards and achievements. Of course, these have been mentioned a million times now in this thread but some people seem persistent in not listening.

As a whole, it's a good port worth buying if you have the money, whether you buy it to support CAVE or whether you buy it some months down the line.

Buying the Ketsui port isn't supporting Cave. Cave have had their money from 5pb for the publishing rights. It doesn't matter if you buy a million copies of the port, Cave won't see a penny of it. Again, this is something else that has also been iterated countless times now in this thread.

[Lance Boyle]

Of course, these have been mentioned a million times now in this thread but some people seem persistent in not listening.

I said is JUST THE ARCADE GAME better than MAME, DISREGARDING all the trimmings and extra modes they added outside of it?

And besides that, we already have our own leaderboards right on the forum. Achievements? Those are ridiculous! 2-ALL the game in the Ura loop then print out a big trophy sticker for yourself, that's an achievement.

In the MAME version you can have adjustible scanlines, you can get it to display in pixel-perfect 1:2 aspect ratio, you can have instant-access savestates, you can have support for far more controllers (including keyboard!), it plays at the correct speed (360 version is a little faster than PCB), and you can shuffle around a whole bunch of replays on your hard drive! As far as JUST THE ARCADE GAME goes, how is 360 Ketsui superior?

[Ghegs]

Buying the Ketsui port isn't supporting Cave. Cave have had their money from 5pb for the publishing rights. It doesn't matter if you buy a million copies of the port, Cave won't see a penny of it.

Cave might not benefit from people buying the Ketsui port directly, but certainly the publishers will see how well/badly the port does and will make decisions on whether to get the rights to publish Cave's other titles according to that.

[bcass]

Of course, these have been mentioned a million times now in this thread but some people seem persistent in not listening.

I said is JUST THE ARCADE GAME better than MAME, DISREGARDING all the trimmings and extra modes they added outside of it?

They're not trimmings, they're all integral to making the port more desirable.

And besides that, we already have our own leaderboards right on the forum.

LOL, yeah, messing about with cameras and manually uploading images to a website is definitely better than having Xbox Live automate it all for you.

Achievements? Those are ridiculous!

Whether you like it or not, Achievements are important to a lot of players now.

Buying the Ketsui port isn't supporting Cave. Cave have had their money from 5pb for the publishing rights. It doesn't matter if you buy a million copies of the port, Cave won't see a penny of it.

Cave might not benefit from people buying the Ketsui port directly, but certainly the publishers will see how well/badly the port does and will make decisions on whether to get the rights to publish Cave's other titles according to that.

After the debacle of the DOJBLEX release (involving no less than the theft of source code from a 3rd party) and the poor sales of both ports, do you seriously think that Cave would let 5pb anywhere near their games again? I seriously doubt it.

[Lance Boyle]

They're not trimmings, they're all integral to making the port more desirable.

You're missing my point. I'll rephrase it:

If all you want is JUST KETSUI and NOTHING ELSE, which would be the better version?

To copy/paste what you glossed over:

In the MAME version you can have adjustible scanlines, you can get it to display in pixel-perfect 1:2 aspect ratio, you can have instant-access savestates, you can have support for far more controllers (including keyboard!), it plays at the correct speed (360 version is a little faster than PCB), and you can manage your replays and share them much more efficiently!

LOL, yeah, messing about with cameras and manually uploading images to a website is definitely better than having Xbox Live automate it all for you.

What the fuck? Who uses cameras with MAME? Just press F12, lol.

Manually uploading images too hard for you? Get Dropbox and route the screenshot directory to it. Image will be uploaded the moment you hit F12 and all you have to do is hit the image tags and press CTRL-V to post it anywhere you like. That's not hard.

@Ghegs:

Cave might not benefit from people buying the Ketsui port directly, but certainly the publishers will see how well/badly the port does and will make decisions on whether to get the rights to publish Cave's other titles according to that.

Alternatively, they could hit up the usual places and see how many times the Ketsui rom has been downloaded, then Google for threads where it is being discovered as the belated second coming of Jesus Christ in videogame format. That would give them a much more accurate view of Cave's popularity in the West and they can market accordingly.

[bcass]

In the MAME version you can have adjustible scanlines, you can get it to display in pixel-perfect 1:2 aspect ratio

I play the ports on an CRT via RGB scart. I get scanlines - they're built into my TV! I've been playing arcade games in cabs since the early 80s and on my setup, the ports look as good as anything I've ever seen in a cab. Does it look identical? Probably not. Does it look great? Absolutely.

you can have instant-access savestates, you can have support for far more controllers (including keyboard!)

If you *really* wanted to, it wouldn't be impossible to butcher a 360 pad and wire it up to a keyboard.

you can manage your replays and share them much more efficiently!

In what dimension is manually emailing a replay to a friend more efficient than your friend pressing the A button to download your replay from a Leaderboard?

What the fuck? Who uses cameras with MAME? Just press F12, lol.

Having it all automated on Xbox Live still beats the shit out of having to mess about with screengrabs and image hosts. You also don't have to waste time manually navigating websites to look up your score(s).

[Lance Boyle]

Okay, and in light of this discussion I think we should have a MAME vs. Port (by game) topic for general use. I think we've boiled it down to a matter of personal taste / budget for Ketsui with the points listed above.

Oh, another point on the MAME side is that the MAME version will likely remain the most popular version as virtually anyone can just grab the ROM and have it running. You can't view an Xbox Live replay on PC, thus your skill will go unrecognized by the many.

In what dimension is manually emailing a replay to a friend more efficient than your friend pressing the A button to download your replay from a Leaderboard?

The dimension where you throw a fraction-of-a-megabyte replay file onto a Dropbox and link it to anyone you want to, also, your analogy is a little unfair because it assumes you're already AT THE EXACT POINT where you press the A button to get THAT SPECIFIC REPLAY. In what dimension is starting the game, letting it load (load load), navigating through the Xbox Live service and finding THAT particular replay more convenient than clicking SEND?

You also don't have to waste time manually navigating websites to look up your score(s).

Instead you can manually navigate Xbox Live!

[Drachenherz]

tomato, tomato... potato, potato... ^^

[Lance Boyle]

Yeah, discussion sure hurts my feeble brain. Reasonable discourse just gets TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT sometimes.

P.S. i'm totally the dude on the right in that .gif, look at that swagger he doesn't move his wrist an inch.

[Drachenherz]

Yeah, discussion sure hurts my feeble brain. Reasonable discourse just gets TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT sometimes.

What about reasonable intercourse?

Aw... okay, now I'm just putting up feeble attemps of trolling.

Problem is, IMO this topic has been discussed to death and what's left discussing is just personal opinions/preferences. IMO.

[Lance Boyle]

Problem is, IMO this topic has been discussed to death and what's left discussing is just personal opinions/preferences. IMO.

We're not done discussing the reasons for either side of the port / MAME argument on Ketsui, and suggesting we shouldn't discuss them because it's "just personal opinion" is a thought-terminating cliche.

And, lol, we're not even discussing the original topic anymore, which is why I suggested a new one.

[Drachenherz]

Problem is, IMO this topic has been discussed to death and what's left discussing is just personal opinions/preferences. IMO.

We're not done discussing the reasons for either side of the port / MAME argument on Ketsui, and suggesting we shouldn't discuss them because it's "just personal opinion" is a thought-terminating cliche.

And, lol, we're not even discussing the original topic anymore, which is why I suggested a new one.

To the ketsui discussion:
I know, bringing up the "personal opinion" argument is just a killer-argument which shuts any usefull discussion down. But as I follow you two discussing, for me it really boils down to that, there's nothing new and refreshing comming out of your discussion and for me it's just trying to persuade the other of ones personal opinion. Like discussing what colour is better, red or blue...

[Lance Boyle]

To the ketsui discussion:
I know, bringing up the "personal opinion" argument is just a killer-argument which shuts any usefull discussion down. But as I follow you two discussing, for me it really boils down to that, there's nothing new and refreshing comming out of your discussion and for me it's just trying to persuade the other of ones personal opinion. Like discussing what colour is better, red or blue...

I'm not trying to "persuade" him to sell his awesome arcade cabinet and sit down with MAME with all the rest of the happy proletariat, nor is he trying to "persuade" me to get a day job to invest in expensive arcade swag and a J-360.

"Persuasion" is very, very rarely the foundation of any common intelligent debate, and this discussion is JUST A BIT more complex than HURR I THINK RED IS THE PURDIEST COLOR.

If we didn't think the debate was worthwhile we wouldn't be debating, lol.

In short, if you actually read half of the factual statements we're citing you could probably put two and two together and deduce that this argument is not just about "personal opinion".

[bcass]

I think it's pretty obvious to all but Lance that the port (and indeed, all the ports) have so much added to them (that you'll never get in MAME) that they've become essential purchases for Cave fans, regardless if you already have the PCBs or the ROMs for MAME. If you want to keep denying yourself of that, then fair enough, but you are missing out. This isn't a moral argument either. I couldn't care less if you got a JTAG 360 and downloaded all the ports for free.

Oh, and I don't own an arcade cab, nor do I own any PCBs.

[Lance Boyle]

Oh, and I don't own an arcade cab, nor do I don't own any PCBs.

Sorry, I took your "I've been playing arcade games in cabs since the early 80's" comment wrong.

I think it's pretty obvious to all but Lance that the port (and indeed, all the ports) have so much added to them

And here he misses the point I stuck by again.

If all you want is JUST KETSUI and NOTHING ELSE, which would be the better version?

I'm not saying the port isn't worthwhile, but again, that's not my point. I'm not denying myself of anything and had I the chance I would absolutely get the port. All of this is, of course, completely irrelevant to the point I am trying to make.

[bcass]

No Lance, I haven't missed your point. If you choose not to acknowledge the ways in which your so called point has been addressed that's up to you.

[Lance Boyle]

No Lance, I haven't missed your point. If you choose not to acknowledge the ways in which your so called point has been addressed that's up to you.

I have acknowledged your responses, and we've discussed them, but then you went back on it with

think it's pretty obvious to all but Lance that the port (and indeed, all the ports) have so much added to them

which is an abrupt change of subject - and yes, for the added content 360 Ketsui is a great package deal but as for Ketsui itself the quality difference is debatable.

EDIT: Also, my "so-called" point? Is that really necessary?

[Kaiser]

I think everyone will agree (or most of people) that this arguement is FFFFFFF POINTLESS. Lance, put your guns the FFFF down

[emphatic]

Ketsui (360 port) PROS:

No lag at all
Stereo soundtrack
Arrange soundtrack
You can turn off the soundtrack/effects or mix levels to your liking (play that metal your so fond of instead)
Quick restart option (even when you're recording your run)
You can very easily download replays from either friends or the Japanese top scorers
Training mode
It's perfectly legal

CONS:
You can't export your run to a video file that can be uploaded to YouTube without buying expensive extra equipment
Unless you play "online" your run won't be uploaded to the online leaderboards
Sharing your offline replays with friends is a bitch
You can't play with just any controller (without lots of hacking, putting out)
If you have a really old 360, it might die on you

Ketsui (MAME) PROS:

Lot's of video options not available in the port
Easy to record your run to a very small file (.inp)
Save states
Super-easy (although lengthy process) to export your run to YouTube for the whole world to see
Depending on the MAME version used, acceptable lag
You can use almost any controller to play

CONS:
Only mono low-fi soundtrack
Good luck finding Japanese high scoring replays as easy as with the port (downloading warez videos or buying expensive super-play dvds)
You're playing on a computer, so anything can happen, and it might die on you at any time (yes, PCs can die, just like those pesky 360s)
Unless you own the PCB, you're breaking the law

I know I'm missing some "important" points above, but for me it doesn't matter much. I own a 360 and the port, so I can play both (though I'm breaking the law when I play it in MAME).

[kernow]

no PCB pros?

*Super Baller
*Tell everyone you own it
*Post in every sales thread mentioning its a good deal whenever its on sale

[Ex-Cyber]

Unless you own the PCB, you're breaking the law

I don't know of any time that this has ever gone to court, but mainstream opinion seems to be that it's only solidly legal if the ROM dump is taken from your own PCB; i.e. the fact that you own an authorized copy doesn't give anyone else a license to distribute a copy to you.

[littlenemo]

Having reading your answers here is what I want to add to the debate :

- Arrange modes, as good as they can be (I don't care for any of them but that's another debate), are not going to "last" very long imo.
I am quite sure that in 10 years they will be forgotten and that what will be played are the original versions of the games, justifying the quality of a product relying on their existence is for me irrelevant.

-

Whether you like it or not, Achievements are important to a lot of players now.

Lady Gaga sells millions of albums, that doesn't mean they're good, are we really supporting console versions of the games because of that feature ?

- Replay system on console as far as Cave is concerned is bad : you don't have a rewind button, that's precisely the point of having replays in shmup.

- My whole point was also to say that neither 5pb or Cave's ports are good 360 games for many reasons :

360 was designed to be played on a HD LCD TV, if you upscale SD you HAVE to do it properly. Adding scanlines would be the cheapest way, correctly HDing them is good, redrawing with taste everything would be the best, Cave's ports fail in any of these ways. Apart Futari none of them feature scanlines, and the graphical balance is imo gloomy regarding the HD versions, with ugly SD backgrounds and strange HDfied sprites.
Why is it that on iphone they release perfect retina display (960x640) for 80's games like dragon's lair so easily and it seems so hard for Cave to find a balance at, let 's say at least 1280x800 ?

And again what is the "added value" that justifies their use of a hardware such as the 360 ? In terms of graphics, in terms of Gameplay? What s the use of theses practice modes if you can't use save states, if you can't sometimes even choose the point of start in the levels like in Guwange ?
Saturn Radiant Silvergun and Gamecube Ikaruga are fantastic shmup console games, I don't think that Cave ports come close to that (except Futari maybe)

Am I that crazy to believe that Cave ports could be actually far better than emulation in every of these ways ?

Since DOJ and Ketsui were emulated I never booted their 360 versions once, I even deleted Guwange to leave some space on my hard drive, and I am quite sure that when DS, DS BL, Galuda 2 and all the rest will be emulated I won't ever play the 360 versions again.

[DMC]

no PCB pros?

*Super Baller
*Tell everyone you own it
*Post in every sales thread mentioning its a good deal whenever its on sale

I would buy this if I didn't have it already.

^^My favourite trading-section reply.

[david peterson]

I think everyone will agree (or most of people) that this arguement is FFFFFFF POINTLESS. Lance, put your guns the FFFF down

Why single out Lance and not bcass? either way this is pointless, Mame ftw.

[kernow]

no PCB pros?

*Super Baller
*Tell everyone you own it
*Post in every sales thread mentioning its a good deal whenever its on sale

I would buy this if I didn't have it already.

^^My favourite trading-section reply.

Oh man I'd buy this if (my cat is in hospital, my car just caught on fire) Bump for a good seller!

Great price!

oh thats too much I paid xx for mine.

*something-something completely unrelated and several paragraphs long ending in a ^_~ and good luck with your sale*

[bcass]

I think everyone will agree (or most of people) that this arguement is FFFFFFF POINTLESS. Lance, put your guns the FFFF down

Why single out Lance and not bcass?

Because Lance has seen fit to drag this tedious argument out long after myself (and everyone else) got bored of him.

Anyway, whoever made that list of pros for the 360 version forgot the most important one: you get to have a crappy, valuable resource-wasting, plastic box on your shelf to go with the rest of your crappy, valuable resource-wasting, crappy boxes.

[Vyxx]

Anyway, whoever made that list of pros for the 360 version forgot the most important one: you get to have a crappy, valuable resource-wasting, plastic box on your shelf to go with the rest of your crappy, valuable resource-wasting, crappy boxes.

So, that's another pro for the PCB owners then, cardboard.

[Drachenherz]

Anyway, whoever made that list of pros for the 360 version forgot the most important one: you get to have a crappy, valuable resource-wasting, plastic box on your shelf to go with the rest of your crappy, valuable resource-wasting, crappy boxes.

So, that's another pro for the PCB owners then, cardboard.

But think of all the silicone and other valuable resources that are used to build a pcb! Ecologically thinking, MAME-Versions of the games are the best.

Yes, yes, I confess, now I'm just downright silly...