Horis where collisions with the environment don't kill you?

[Drum]

Was just playing Gradius Gaiden with the Guard shield (which I'd never really used much before - default for me is always force field) and not having to worry about walls makes a fantastic game even more fantastic. Got me thinking about how one of the biggest complaints with horizontal shooters is the ignominious deaths by environment. These deaths also have, I think, a lot to do with the reputation of games like R-Type, Gradius and Xexex as memorisers. Just wondering - what are some shooters that buck the standard?
I can think of Lords of Thunder, Baraduke, Dragon Breed (which has pretty barren environments anyway, especially for a game where you can dismount and walk around) and Atomic Robo Kid off the top of my head - what else?
Was also wondering if somebody has tried hacking games like R-Type to take out environmental collisions - would be interesting to see how that changes opinions on it.

[Vyxx]

I actually love Environmental hazards in my Hori shooters. I feel like it adds more to the game.

[Aquas]

P-47 Aces, Deathsmiles...

[BulletMagnet]

Border Down sort of does - touching an environmental object won't instantly kill you, but scrape up against one for too long and you'll pay for it (and doing so while at a high speed setting brings this about faster).

[louisg]

Forget that, there should be more *verts* with environmental hazards too.. bring it on!

[Herr Schatten]

IIRC, R-Type Delta and R-Type Final both allow for collisions with the environment without killing you.

[Drum]

IIRC, R-Type Delta and R-Type Final both allow for collisions with the environment without killing you.

Oh, cool. Do people actually play that way or is it a novelty mode? Has anybody given it a proper go? How was the balance? Would be interesting to test it on somebody who had never played the game before ... maybe I could be a guinea pig, I've never played either of those.

[Despatche]

Forget that, there should be more *verts* with environmental hazards too.. bring it on!

1941 has environmental hazards... and they don't kill you.

[THE]

Last Hope: Pink Bullets is like that too. If you touch walls, you get bumped back. You die only on walls if you drive into them by force.

[Drum]

Forget that, there should be more *verts* with environmental hazards too.. bring it on!

1941 has environmental hazards... and they don't kill you.

The non-lethal obstacles in Super Aleste are one of the things that put it above MUSHA for me. Plays a lot like a vertical hori. Xenon 2 is the same, but I can't bring myself to play that any more :(
If 1941 or Super Aleste had Xenon 2's graphical style I might never play anything else.

[BIL]

Along with the aforementioned Border Down, Eihhander does something similar. You get an "allowance" of contact with walls, etc, during which the ship will give off sparks without exploding. Once it's up, though, you're dead. In Einhander's case it'll regenerate when you're not in contact - if you don't give it enough time, you'll blow up as if you were playing a typical Gradius.

Cotton 2 & Boomerang also let you touch walls without damage. So does Mystic Riders / Gun Hohki, another "on a broom" hori.

There's no walls to speak of in the entire game, but you can run along the ground where it's present in Sengoku Blade.

IIRC, R-Type Delta and R-Type Final both allow for collisions with the environment without killing you.

Oh, cool. Do people actually play that way or is it a novelty mode? Has anybody given it a proper go? How was the balance? Would be interesting to test it on somebody who had never played the game before ... maybe I could be a guinea pig, I've never played either of those.

Delta is that way by default - not sure if Final altered this. You can see an experienced player (our own saucykobold) taking advantage of Delta's wall contact here.

Delta is still pretty tough even without wall / ceiling collision hazards. The level designs tend to compensate by filling up open space with enemies, and on Bydo (maximum) difficulty they fire tons of fast bullets. Since your ship is pretty large, the game doesn't need collision deaths to make things uncomfortable. Stage 5 technically has no walls whatsoever, but is loaded with erratically-moving things that can easily barge into and kill you, making it feel claustrophobic regardless. Stage 6 would be insane if you couldn't touch the walls, since it's chock-a-block with large enemies throughout, and you need the sidelines to evade.

[emphatic]

Chariot (Three Wonders).

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Like someone has already said enviroments that kill you are what makes a hori so fun in my view, but the occational hori like R-type delta isnt too bad for novalties sake

[ZacharyB]

I can confirm that R-Type Final allows for continued contact with the environment. It really helps due to the slow pace of the ship and the need for dodging all over the place at times. Also knowing that you can make absolutely sure you're as low or high as possible in order to avoid the next salvo.

[dieKatze88]

Since nobody else mentioned it, in Arcade mode, Otomedius doesn't kill you for collisions, however, it does drain your shield.

After you have no shield, you bounce off as if you were using Guard in Gradius Gaiden (and the girl will make the cute noises, of course). However, being Crushed (Super Mario Brothers Style) will kill you.

[Mortificator]

Gallop
Mr. Heli
Rabio Lepus

There's also the Fantasy Zone series, but the terrain in those games is just perfectly flat ground.

[BPzeBanshee]

Thunder Force AC has parts of Stage 4 that appear as if they were foreground but are actually background, letting you fly through them.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Add Insector X and Sol Deace/Feace.

Can touch walls, ceilings and ground items that are not enemies in Insector X as long as it doesn't cause a crush against the left edge of the screen.

Sol Deace/Sol Feace the ship actually bounces off the floor or ceiling.

[Drum]

Along with the aforementioned Border Down, Eihhander does something similar. You get an "allowance" of contact with walls, etc, during which the ship will give off sparks without exploding. Once it's up, though, you're dead. In Einhander's case it'll regenerate when you're not in contact - if you don't give it enough time, you'll blow up as if you were playing a typical Gradius.

Another game that does this is Rougien (1983, arcade). In the 3d tunnel sequences you can graze the sides and bottom of the tunnels, creating sparks. Graze too long and you're boned. Doesn't fit into modern hori/vert notions but it's closer to a vert.

Delta is still pretty tough even without wall / ceiling collision hazards. The level designs tend to compensate by filling up open space with enemies, and on Bydo (maximum) difficulty they fire tons of fast bullets. Since your ship is pretty large, the game doesn't need collision deaths to make things uncomfortable. Stage 5 technically has no walls whatsoever, but is loaded with erratically-moving things that can easily barge into and kill you, making it feel claustrophobic regardless. Stage 6 would be insane if you couldn't touch the walls, since it's chock-a-block with large enemies throughout, and you need the sidelines to evade.

I'd ignored Delta so I had no idea about any of this - sounds to me like a big improvement on the R-Type formula. I'd heard repeatedly that it was the best in the series but I kind of blocked it out, assuming that whatever R-Type fans thought was the best in the series would be a game worth ignoring (I am not a fan, generally speaking). Add onto that the PSX-era polygons replacing the rad organic designs of the previous titles and ... yeah. I guess now I know why people were saying it's the best game in the series!
It's on PSN, but it's not available in my region (New Zealand). Is there a way to bypass that? I'd prefer to get it on PSP if possible.

@ folks who like killer terrain: For me it's a matter of degree. Overall I guess I prefer horis to verts and variety in topography may be part of the reason, but too often it can feel like I'm playing a game of Operation if the stage designers get too carried away and that's not much fun to me - just seems too rigid and controlling to make things tactically interesting. I like it when the ground serves as a different kind of obstacle than enemies/bullets - something to be wary of and plan around as opposed to being afraid of like everything else. I like destructible environments though, especially ones that do weird stuff like regenerate/set off chain reactions of falling rock etc. that can be used to your advantage or cause your ruin.

[Ed Oscuro]

P-47 Aces, Deathsmiles...

For whatever reason I usually think of Zed Blade alongside P-47 Aces (well, it's the similar point leeching method) but of course contact with the floor and walls will kill you - but getting inside the floor is part of leeching strategy all the same.

[gameoverDude]

Section Z & Side Arms are like this as well. Like Death Smiles, you can only die from an obstacle if it pushes you off screen. Same goes for Forgotten Worlds IINM. In Section Z you can "walk" on the floors, but you will move really slow so that's not recommended.

[`Throwdown]

No one mentioned UN Squadron?

[Kiken]

Section Z & Side Arms are like this as well. Like Death Smiles, you can only die from an obstacle if it pushes you off screen.

You will not take damage in DeathSmiles from the background pushing you off-screen. You'll simply 'pop-out' from behind the object once it pushes you past the edge of the screen (which is a very important tactic, especially in the canyon level).

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'd ignored Delta so I had no idea about any of this - sounds to me like a big improvement on the R-Type formula. I'd heard repeatedly that it was the best in the series but I kind of blocked it out, assuming that whatever R-Type fans thought was the best in the series would be a game worth ignoring (I am not a fan, generally speaking). Add onto that the PSX-era polygons replacing the rad organic designs of the previous titles and ... yeah. I guess now I know why people were saying it's the best game in the series!
It's on PSN, but it's not available in my region (New Zealand). Is there a way to bypass that? I'd prefer to get it on PSP if possible.

From what I know, you can buy PlayStation Classics off the Japanese store. You just need Japanese points.
Delta is still R-Type through and through, more difficult to practice than I, II and III to boot as you don't have unlimited continues. Also, it IS ugly, make no mistake (this comes from someone who finds Einhänder and Omega Boost looking sort of good in this day and age). That out of the way, if you need a horizontal shmup for your PSP, Delta is about as good as they come.

[NzzpNzzp]

Delta is still R-Type through and through, more difficult to practice than I, II and III to boot as you don't have unlimited continues.

It doesn't take a long time to unlock free play. Like six hours? Less?

[SFKhoa]

Border Down sort of does - touching an environmental object won't instantly kill you, but scrape up against one for too long and you'll pay for it (and doing so while at a high speed setting brings this about faster).

I think Einhander does the same thing, except for the latter.

[Obiwanshinobi]

In Hyper Duel you can touch the ground safely as a mech (ship gets destroyed instantly). Awesome game, feels almost like something Data East would make in their best years rather than a would-be Thunder Force.

[tinotormed]

Dead Moon! Yup, I like this game besides the Gradius series because you do not get hurt if you bump on both top and bottom sides of the screen! The Cotton series and Magical Chase do them either.

[Drum]

In Hyper Duel you can touch the ground safely as a mech (ship gets destroyed instantly). Awesome game, feels almost like something Data East would make in their best years rather than a would-be Thunder Force.

Thanks for reminding me of Hyper Duel - don't know why that wasn't in my MAME favourites folder, because it is rad. Also, every year was Data East's best year!

[Mortificator]

Hyper Duel - don't know why that wasn't in my MAME favourites folder

Because it should be in your Saturn / Saturn emulation folder.