Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Re: Re Newsflash--people have different opinions

Post by Acid King »

CMoon wrote:So which of our opinions is right?
Eh? I don't know why you're busting out that old chestnut. I've never intimated that a person's opinion on a movie was wrong unless it was some technical point. Of course it's largely subjective, only an asshole would suggest otherwise. But you're wrong to suggest that that particular criticism of Kane is based on some generational cultural difference because the fact is the movie wasn't popular when it was first released. It was mainly popular with critics and it didn't even recoup it's production costs when it was first released (Incidentally, Moby Dick, if I remember correctly, was trashed by critics when it was published and pretty much destroyed Melville's career as a writer). Kane has always been a critics film. No one would remember it if it wasn't.

The other thing is that anyone that's had more than a passing interest in movies has been exposed to writers extolling the greatness of Kane and god knows how many critical analyses explain the techniques used by Welles. Chances are if you've read anything significant on film criticism you've basically had it explained to you how to appreciate the movie and it's hard to separate that fact from many movie fans adoration of the movie.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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CMoon wrote:Skykid, I think you've misread that quote. I was arguing that the quality of acting, among other things, IS NOT entirely subjective, and I'll be happy to argue over good versus bad acting.
I did. Sorry, it was 5am. :oops:
Acid King wrote:Kane has always been a critics film. No one would remember it if it wasn't.
The other thing is that anyone that's had more than a passing interest in movies has been exposed to writers extolling the greatness of Kane and god knows how many critical analyses explain the techniques used by Welles. Chances are if you've read anything significant on film criticism you've basically had it explained to you how to appreciate the movie and it's hard to separate that fact from many movie fans adoration of the movie.
Good points and I can see where you're coming from regarding a particular bandwagon demographic. Shit like that annoys me too.

Personally I avoid everything to do with any film held in high regard or otherwise - I don't like spoilers. I saw Kane knowing literally nothing about it and can still appreciate that it's a brilliant piece of work. Saying no-one would remember it if it wasn't a darling of the critics is a bit of an overstatement perhaps.
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Re: Re Newsflash--people have different opinions

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Acid King wrote:
CMoon wrote:So which of our opinions is right?
Eh? I don't know why you're busting out that old chestnut. I've never intimated that a person's opinion on a movie was wrong unless it was some technical point. Of course it's largely subjective, only an asshole would suggest otherwise.
Well, as I've suggested elsewhere, I think many aspects of movies aren't all that subjective. Even if one doesn't like a film, the quality of various aspects are written on the wall--and when opinions differ here, they make for stimulated discussion. For instance, if you wanted to discuss the pacing of Kane, it could make for good debate; but in simply claling the film 'boring', I think the chestnut you mention here is yours.

But you're wrong to suggest that that particular criticism of Kane is based on some generational cultural difference because the fact is the movie wasn't popular when it was first released.
Well, there are at least three points here, and I think you may have missed the first two, and I will argue with you on the third. I'm also guessing a bit because I don't know which part of my original post you are referring to.

1) When I wrote this I meant simply that the subject matter of the film (William Randolph Hearst) is not something viewers will be aware of today. In fact, there are clearly an enormous number of nuances that may be lost on a modern audience. That many people consider the movie boring today may be related to this lack of context.

2) What I called a 'movie vocabulary' continues to change (as you would expect it), thoughout time. This is different than point #1 because it explains why someone can dislike Yojimbo but enjoy Last Man Standing. The use of cinematic techniques as narrator necessitates a commonly understood vocabulary between director and viewer. With little to no special effects, older films required an enormous vocabulary and an attentive audience. I actually feel that this vocabulary has diminished greatly in film, and because of this, modern movie goers may be locked out of older films.

It was mainly popular with critics and it didn't even recoup it's production costs when it was first released (Incidentally, Moby Dick, if I remember correctly, was trashed by critics when it was published and pretty much destroyed Melville's career as a writer). Kane has always been a critics film. No one would remember it if it wasn't.
And so here is point 3, which is (as much as I understand) that certain works may be good, but they will never communicate to the general public in a way that popcorn films, trashy romance novels or first person shooters will. I guess I'm fine with that. Very films that are dear to me are blockbusters, and most of my favorites have been misunderstood both by the general public and by critics upon their release. So be it, and so what? This also applies to The Wild Bunch and Night of the Hunter. It even applies to Blade Runner.

I must be misunderstanding your point, because I doubt your arguing against the sincerity of 'critics' movies', or some kind of relationship between popularity and artistic viability. So yeah, what's the point here?
The other thing is that anyone that's had more than a passing interest in movies has been exposed to writers extolling the greatness of Kane and god knows how many critical analyses explain the techniques used by Welles. Chances are if you've read anything significant on film criticism you've basically had it explained to you how to appreciate the movie and it's hard to separate that fact from many movie fans adoration of the movie.
I hear what you are saying, but fail to see the problem. It's like accusing someone of enjoying a certain piece of jazz or classical because they are a trained musician. We further criticize their opinion because they explain how you should listen to that piece of music--because the music in question isn't immediately approachable and may have nuances not immediately obvious to an untrained ear. Our final criticism is of a group of these musicians who work hard to make sure that the general public has some awareness of said older classics, and even go so far as to suggest that some of these classics are truly great, unrivaled pieces of music. Yes?

If I was going to argue against anything, it would be against the idea of a top 100 or top 250 at all. I'd rather see a list of notable films divided by era and directors.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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My point is the same one I would level at the games-as-art crowd or mainstream video game consumers. I'd suggest that the best movies and best games are ones that balance art and entertainment because at their base that's what they both are. A technically proficient or artistically interesting game still has to be fun and engaging to play and I'd say the same thing about movies. The problem with the training of people to enjoy movies is that people end up not watching the movie and instead watch the components. The approach becomes not one of taking things as they are and evaluating movies on their own terms but one of dissection and evaluation based on criteria the filmmaker may not have even been considering.

That critics don't consider a well executed popcorn movie truly great, much like your earlier statement about going into a movie knowing it's "shit", is not unlike modern game reviewers not considering a modern scrolling shooter a truly great game or considering one for game of the year status alongside Call of Duty. You're essentially saying certain qualities are valued at the exclusion of others and I wholeheartedly disagree with that.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

Post by CMoon »

Acid King wrote:My point is the same one I would level at the games-as-art crowd or mainstream video game consumers. I'd suggest that the best movies and best games are ones that balance art and entertainment because at their base that's what they both are. A technically proficient or artistically interesting game still has to be fun and engaging to play and I'd say the same thing about movies.
And this implies there is a rule distinguishing between movies which are purely entertainment, and those that serve only the purpose of advancing technical ends. The problem is, no such rule exists. Even though not everyone may find interest in Kane as a character study, the quality of a movie isn't based on popular interest, and even the public has flip-flopped over time on various works. I mean, it sounds really nice to suggest there's this movie elite who only like these soul-less technical wonders, but how can you establish that the director, actors, etc. had no intention on the fim being entertaining, engaging and engrossing.

What you're left with is an opinion--your opinion--that Kane wasn't meant to be an entertaining film, or wrongfully discarded entertainment for the purpose of technical advancements, but you have no way to in fact show whether this is true or not. In fact, if you see Kane as an extension out of the Mercury Theatre, it is hard to imagine Welles' intention as something other than entertainment.

I not trying to argue that a film shouldn't be entertaining, but you are once again arguing aginst the validity of Kane as a great film, not for any technical reason, but because you found it boring. I did not.
The problem with the training of people to enjoy movies is that people end up not watching the movie and instead watch the components. The approach becomes not one of taking things as they are and evaluating movies on their own terms but one of dissection and evaluation based on criteria the filmmaker may not have even been considering.
So prior education about any media invalidates the enjoyment of that media? Pure hogwash, and the most depressing world view I could imagine--one where there is only a 'first time', best enjoyed without any knowledge or expectations. I guess I'm best speaking for myself, but can say in comics, music, movies, books, and yes, even video games, learning more about the creative and technical processes behind those mediums has always helped me appreciate the art in question more. Older works or more 'advanced' works may require some background information before they become accessible. The reaction to free jazz is a perfect example, not being directly accessible to most listeners. I did not find that learning about free jazz, learning the focus of that music and often what to listen to, destroyed my appreciation of the genre.

I think the problem comes with poor or unwanted education. If you have no interest in listening to free jazz or watching Kane, yet someone is forcing it down your throat, I imagine that would be a miserable experience. I can only guess here, because I wasn't 'trained' to enjoy these things, though I did seek to educate myself about them.
You're essentially saying certain qualities are valued at the exclusion of others and I wholeheartedly disagree with that.
I don't think I'm saying that at all, and I suspect you've pidgeon holed my take on movies with someone else. I'm a pretty open minded movie goer, even if my list of favorite films almost entirely predates the mid-80's. I haven't stopped going to movies, and am more than ready to praise movies for what they do right. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself well here. It's like a co-worker who heard me talking about Avatar and reprimanded me for thinking the movie was shit. I had to correct him and explain that I thought the movie was brilliant, transportational fantasy with amazing technical proess--perhaps the best kind of popcorn. But people don't understand that different movies are trying to accomplish different things, and if you are going to honestly talk about a film you need to start by asking what the film was trying to accomplish and if it did so, or what it could have done to more effectively do so?

All of this has squat nothing to do with the words you've put in my mouth :?
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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CMoon wrote: And this implies there is a rule distinguishing between movies which are purely entertainment, and those that serve only the purpose of advancing technical ends. The problem is, no such rule exists.
If that's the case why does the phrase "popcorn movie" exist?
I think the problem comes with poor or unwanted education. If you have no interest in listening to free jazz or watching Kane, yet someone is forcing it down your throat, I imagine that would be a miserable experience. I can only guess here, because I wasn't 'trained' to enjoy these things, though I did seek to educate myself about them.
No, the problem comes down to people applying their education in a mechanical fashion. I think you're misconstruing what I'm saying. Education can enhance a person's enjoyment but it can also destroy their enjoyment of simpler things because they stop viewing things on their own terms and start categorizing their enjoyment.
I don't think I'm saying that at all, and I suspect you've pidgeon holed my take on movies with someone else. I'm a pretty open minded movie goer, even if my list of favorite films almost entirely predates the mid-80's. I haven't stopped going to movies, and am more than ready to praise movies for what they do right. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself well here. It's like a co-worker who heard me talking about Avatar and reprimanded me for thinking the movie was shit. I had to correct him and explain that I thought the movie was brilliant, transportational fantasy with amazing technical proess--perhaps the best kind of popcorn. But people don't understand that different movies are trying to accomplish different things, and if you are going to honestly talk about a film you need to start by asking what the film was trying to accomplish and if it did so, or what it could have done to more effectively do so?
I didn't put any words in your mouth. If you liked the movie and enjoyed it, why would you ever refer to it as shit? Shit is bad, it's a word that doesn't have any positive connotation ("the shit" excluded). I don't think I've ever had a product and said "This is shit" and meant it's good. Saying "oh it's good shit" is a totally back handed compliment that suggests the movie is bad or inferior to other movies. Your use of that word actually suggests there is a rule, atleast to you, that distinguishes between movies that are purely entertainment and purely artistic or atleast a continuum movies fit into.

My issue is exactly with that kind of differentiation. If you enjoyed the movie, don't belittle it by calling it shit. To me, good is good and enjoyment is enjoyment regardless of why, whether it's because of artistic reasons or because the explosions were fucking awesome. I've never understood why people insist on splitting hairs between the two kinds of entertainment.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Acid King wrote:If that's the case why does the phrase "popcorn movie" exist?
To distinguish between Full Metal Jacket and Transformers 2. Can we agree that both films are trying to be entertaining, but FMJ is trying to do something more?
No, the problem comes down to people applying their education in a mechanical fashion. I think you're misconstruing what I'm saying. Education can enhance a person's enjoyment but it can also destroy their enjoyment of simpler things because they stop viewing things on their own terms and start categorizing their enjoyment.
I don't even know if I want to touch this one. How would you know when a given person passes from 'enhanced enjoyment' to losing their appreciation of simpler things? Although I'll agree that through experience (which is also education) we generally graduate from the most mediocre work, and always want more/better, although I'm still prone to enjoying a fun, simply told story. But there's another problem. Let's suppose CMoon goes to college, gets educated in the arts (etc.) and when he returns to his family, he just can't enjoy the same dumb shit his family always watches. Has CMoon's enjoyment of simpler things been ruined, or have his eyes been opened to the swill his family finds entertaining (obviously I learn toward the latter.) It isn't as though CMoon doesn't enjoy movies anymore. He THINKS he actually enjoys movies a LOT more than when he was younger. Where is the judgment coming from that this is a problem? Maybe this isn't what you're talking about at all and I haven't see what you're describing.
I didn't put any words in your mouth. If you liked the movie and enjoyed it, why would you ever refer to it as shit?
Separate incidents. My avatar story was to point out that most people don't understand much beyond 'good', 'bad'. That's what they want in movie feedback. If I called a movie shit though, that's more complicated. There's all kinds of shit. Are we still talking about Fight Club, because I just don't like the stories and the characters. It's my shit, but maybe not your shit. This is what we call subjective shit. Shamalan's (sp?) Last Airbender though is a total flying horse turd, and that's objective shit. Bad directionship, bad acting, bad pacing, bad script, irresponsible creative changes to the script, bad casting, bad editing. Just fucking bad!

Anyway, I think by this point were mostly talking past each other. The signal-to-noise ratio is definitely through the roof with us apparently responding to phantom arguments. Except for Last Airbender, that's not a phantom argument!

And where the fuck is Skykid's review of Inception!???

P.S. Can there be really good shit, like Chronicles of Riddick?
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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CMoon wrote:The signal-to-noise ratio is definitely through the roof with us apparently responding to phantom arguments.
YOU'RE a phantom!

Also....

Where the fuck is Skykid's review of Inception!???
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Whas wrong wid you punks, it ain't out for rental until January and I toldja that a couple pages back.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Just go get it off the internet in HD all ready. Wait... I mean borrow it.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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I didn't read the entire thread, and it looks like it's become kinda flamewarish.

HOWEVER.. last night I finally saw Inception! I thought it was mostly excellent. It's definitely one of those rare times that a movie can both be appreciated by a mainstream audience and also be a genuinely well-constructed sci fi story. It seems to borrow a bit from both The Matrix and Solaris (though the ending was more ambiguous than Solaris'). It also reminded me somewhat of Ubik for some reason.

Some nitpicks: There was a ton of expository dialogue in the beginning. I kind of wish it had been more mysterious, but this would've made it maybe less accessible. The droning jackhammering soundtrack I also felt didn't do too much for it, especially in slow scenes. I'm glad they had the sense to stop the soundtrack for particularly tense action scenes for contrast, seeing as the music was kind of going full blast much of the rest of the time. The last layer of the dream was also a let-down because it just looked like some Tom Clancy game :D

EDIT: I also think DiCaprio did a good job. I usually think he's a whiny jerk in his movies where he's supposed to be a tough guy, but it worked out here
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Strider77 wrote:Just go get it off the internet in HD all ready. Wait... I mean borrow it.
So there's a good quality .... on the net already?
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Yes, quite. I recommend the 720p rip by Torrent Force.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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louisg wrote: I'm glad they had the sense to stop the soundtrack for particularly tense action scenes for contrast, seeing as the music was kind of going full blast much of the rest of the time.
I liked this, as it reminded me of the fever dreams I used to have as a kid (yes, I dream really loud, low-key music).
louisg wrote:The last layer of the dream was also a let-down because it just looked like some Tom Clancy game :D
Agreed. Perhaps the "architect" responsible for that part was too young and spent free time with such games.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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moozooh wrote:Yes, quite. I recommend the 720p rip by Torrent Force.
In the queue, thanks.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Right, I'm posting in the Inception thread, holy shit what could it mean...

I liked it. :) Sorry to disappoint everyone.

Hahh, right. Can't leave it there obviously, I suppose this crazy thread deserves an ending, so here's what I thought:

Firstly, it's not a masterpiece is it? Let's get that notion firmly out of the way. It does happen to be a surprisingly original and well orchestrated bit of thought provoking sci-fi, and I do enjoy such things. It's stylishly shot, has plenty of adrenaline and it gets your brain into a very interesting groove. This amounts to a very slick Hollywood movie, and by todays bottom-of-the-barrel standards, certainly a cut above most.
Despite this, I'm going to throw a future caveat out there and say that I thought The Prestige was better first time round than it was second (by a long way). I'm not sure what I'd make of Inception on a repeat viewing. As it stands though, it was better for me than anything Nolan has done so far, including the Dark Knight. This was an altogether tauter piece of work.

However, masterpiece it isn't. That's reserved for film of an altogether different caliber. I'm not sure how much I enjoyed being confused by Inception, but I'm guessing quite a bit because confusing the audience was its main objective. By offering layered confusion, it's actually brilliant at convincing you it's smarter than it actually is. What is smart is that it pulls of said confusion as seemingly intelligent, so props for that at least.
There were countless holes in the plot - stupidly so at some points - but the film elevated itself above them by being consistently entertaining despite its flaws.

SPOILERS N SHIZ:

So, why, when heavily sedated, if killed you fall into limbo in the first dream level, but if you die underneath that level you only kick yourself back up to the one above?

If Cobb's wife was unconvinced she existed in the real world because of the Inception placed in her mind in limbo, couldn't she just spin the spinning top to determine if she was actually in reality?

There was a point when Cobb suggested as the van fell toward the river, that the little dude with the slicked hair would only have a 'couple of minutes' in his time to sort everything out, whereas they would have an hour. But then that guy in the hotel spent what appeared to be 30 minutes or so fighting in hallways, wrapping up bodies, planting explosives and carting weightless people into lift shafts? What happened here?

Does that chick from Hard Candy have more than one expression? Is that what being groomed by a paedophile does to you?

I disagree with the notion presented to me by a friend that Cobb was too fat for his role. DiCaprio is a little portly, but in the dream state I assume more is physically possible. HOWEVER, this was never once explained to be the case (iirc), and if in fact that didn't turn out to be the case, the film was plainly ridiculous by the end. That weedy dude from 3rd Rock was punching out guys like he was James Bond and everyone turned into Call of Duty supermen by the third act, taking out armies like it was a walk in the park. The entire notion that they could evade a military subconscious was farfetched anyway - I don't know how no-one caught a bullet in the van, including the Indian driver, but then it's Hollywood so it can be let go.

I was initially very put off by the scripting. Surely you all must have noticed the amount of 'informative' dialogue in the first hour, right? There was a point where I realised the on screen action was pointless and the dialogue was so dense in explanation it was the movie equivalent of an audio tape instruction manual. Once things got underway and it became more tricky and confusing, this went away almost completely as it relied on the momentum and depth of the idea of dream states. I do understand the need to lay some ground rules for the audience by way of filling them in, but some of it smacked of first-draft scripting.

These criticisms aside, I did enjoy it for what it was: very entertaining. I liked its cinematography, subtle use of CG and how it made no reference to the era or technology - everything just 'was'.
Although some were better than others, I liked the ensemble cast (DiCaprio was very good indeed, as usual) and I felt as though it was a very slick piece of entertainment with no flaws big enough to break your suspension of disbelief. I particularly applaud the lack of humour. I abhor unnecessary humour in Hollywood movies (which is most), especially sci-fi, so things being kept serious was a big plus for me.

The last shot was actually perfect. Not only a cut to black (my fave way to cap a movie) but a fantastic cliffhanger that had me flip the film back to the opening scene almost immediately.

My biggest problem is now I want someone to explain it to me. I don't mind that it was often nonsensical, implausible, and full of unexplained holes; it was intriguing enough a concept to have me wanting an explanation. Was Cobb ever out of limbo? My assumptions are along the lines that, the events of the film had taken place once, but were cyclical perhaps, because of the limbo state - explaining why Saito had grown old and Cobb was still in there. I could accept that the opening of the movie is just the ending, and the jump to the young Saito and Cobb in the Japanese dining room was a flashback cueing the beginning of the film - but only if the ending with old Saito was the same as the beginning. They're not though, they're slightly different. Saito says different things in the beginning, something about knowing a man (Cobb) who had 'delusional notions' or something to that effect.

And at the very end, what would have kicked Cobb back into the plane (and reality?). As there's no explanation for that I can only assume it isn't reality and the top keeps spinning?

Gahh... I need some sleep! :)

For perspective, I'd score Nolan:

Following: 5
Memento: 7
Insomnia: 4
The Prestige: 6
Batman Begins: 6
The Dark Knight: 7
Inception: 8
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

Post by 1up »

Watched this with my new gf last night, so I have this fresh in memory :D
Skykid wrote:SPOILERS N SHIZ:

So, why, when heavily sedated, if killed you fall into limbo in the first dream level, but if you die underneath that level you only kick yourself back up to the one above?
explain? saito got shot on the first layer and went to limbo. Fincher was shot on the third layer and was sent to limbo. noone else died, except lots and lots of projections.
Skykid wrote:If Cobb's wife was unconvinced she existed in the real world because of the Inception placed in her mind in limbo, couldn't she just spin the spinning top to determine if she was actually in reality?
an idea manifests itself, grows, like a virus. Even if she did spin the top, maybe she just refused to believe it because she was convinced it was fake. my theory, ofcourse.
Skykid wrote:There was a point when Cobb suggested as the van fell toward the river, that the little dude with the slicked hair would only have a 'couple of minutes' in his time to sort everything out, whereas they would have an hour. But then that guy in the hotel spent what appeared to be 30 minutes or so fighting in hallways, wrapping up bodies, planting explosives and carting weightless people into lift shafts? What happened here?

I disagree with the notion presented to me by a friend that Cobb was too fat for his role. DiCaprio is a little portly, but in the dream state I assume more is physically possible. HOWEVER, this was never once explained to be the case (iirc), and if in fact that didn't turn out to be the case, the film was plainly ridiculous by the end. That weedy dude from 3rd Rock was punching out guys like he was James Bond and everyone turned into Call of Duty supermen by the third act, taking out armies like it was a walk in the park. The entire notion that they could evade a military subconscious was farfetched anyway - I don't know how no-one caught a bullet in the van, including the Indian driver, but then it's Hollywood so it can be let go.
I noticed this too. He had way more time than a couple of minutes to wrap people up, move them to the elevator and plant explosives? but maybe it was a bad edit or mistake in the dialog? with the sedative, 5 minutes in the real world was 1 hour on layer 1, a week on layer 2 and 10 years on layer 3. no gravity zone was layer 2 right? difference is 1:168, that means a 5 seconds drop in the van would give skinny guy 14 minutes on layer 2. does that make sense?
Skykid wrote:The last shot was actually perfect. Not only a cut to black (my fave way to cap a movie) but a fantastic cliffhanger that had me flip the film back to the opening scene almost immediately.

My biggest problem is now I want someone to explain it to me. I don't mind that it was often nonsensical, implausible, and full of unexplained holes; it was intriguing enough a concept to have me wanting an explanation. Was Cobb ever out of limbo? My assumptions are along the lines that, the events of the film had taken place once, but were cyclical perhaps, because of the limbo state - explaining why Saito had grown old and Cobb was still in there. I could accept that the opening of the movie is just the ending, and the jump to the young Saito and Cobb in the Japanese dining room was a flashback cueing the beginning of the film - but only if the ending with old Saito was the same as the beginning. They're not though, they're slightly different. Saito says different things in the beginning, something about knowing a man (Cobb) who had 'delusional notions' or something to that effect.

And at the very end, what would have kicked Cobb back into the plane (and reality?). As there's no explanation for that I can only assume it isn't reality and the top keeps spinning?
I had a good discussion about this with my gf after the film last night, and we basically came to the same conclusionas you. He's so obsessed with getting back to his kids that he accepts that was happening at the end was reality. That maybe Mal was right about jumping to her death as it wasn't reality and that it really was Cobb refusing to accept that they were still in a dream state. That Cobb has always been stuck in Limbo. That his totem was playing tricks on him as it wasn't his, it was Mals'.
He touched the top for the first time in Limbo when he found it in the safe, and if he never got back to reality, he couldn't possibly know the weight of it. Only what his subconcious told him it weighed. Therefore when he 'thinks' he's in reality and spins the top and it falls over, it's because he thinks its reality and his subconcious tells him that the top falls over. But he doesn't actually know the attributes of the totem.

I also want to know how they got the 'kick' and woke up on the plane. Also, how they end up in Cobbs Limbo? Layer 1 was Fischers dream, layer 2 was Arthurs and layer 3 was Eames and layer 4 was Cobbs with Fischer hooked up? Don't they have to be hooked up to exist in the next layer? as a non-projection? How did Saito get to Cobbs Limbo?
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

Post by GaijinPunch »

I'll give you that, Skykid. I don't think it's a masterpiece either... just a good solid movie. Honestly, I thought Watanabe brought a LOT to the table... so rare for a Japanese actor.
Despite this, I'm going to throw a future caveat out there and say that I thought The Prestige was better first time round than it was second (by a long way)
Yeah, interesting. I think I saw it the first time on cable so wasn't into it so my opinion is a bit skewed. While I like the story (and that the entire movie is just layered w/ "illusions") I think the recreation of the time still steals the show for me.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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1up wrote:
skykid wrote: So, why, when heavily sedated, if killed you fall into limbo in the first dream level, but if you die underneath that level you only kick yourself back up to the one above?
explain? saito got shot on the first layer and went to limbo. Fincher was shot on the third layer and was sent to limbo. noone else died, except lots and lots of projections.
But didn't they use death to kick back up the layers? They fall down lift shafts, Fischer is pushed off the edge of a building to magically an simultaneously work with his defibrilation on the layer above (good timing) and then (unlike Saito) walks away from his bullet death unscathed. :idea:
Ariadne also plunges off the edge of a drop to kick back up the layer, and Cobb does it with his wife to return from limbo. So when did they explain you can be shot on layer 1 under heavy sedation and fall into limbo, but die whenever you need to thereafter to trigger kicks? Dunno what I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to compute. Seems to me to be more of Nolan's fanciful script writing with a bunch of loose ends.
1up wrote:
Skykid wrote:If Cobb's wife was unconvinced she existed in the real world because of the Inception placed in her mind in limbo, couldn't she just spin the spinning top to determine if she was actually in reality?
an idea manifests itself, grows, like a virus. Even if she did spin the top, maybe she just refused to believe it because she was convinced it was fake. my theory, of course.
Ah well, nothing concrete then (I was hoping I missed something.) If she refused to believe the spinning top, then this needed to be pointed out. I don't really mind in this type of movie when a plot hole is a passing thing, but no reference to her 'totem' during her struggle to perceive reality is an error I reckon. That's the point of the totem entirely!


1up wrote:
Skykid wrote:There was a point when Cobb suggested as the van fell toward the river, that the little dude with the slicked hair would only have a 'couple of minutes' in his time to sort everything out, whereas they would have an hour. But then that guy in the hotel spent what appeared to be 30 minutes or so fighting in hallways, wrapping up bodies, planting explosives and carting weightless people into lift shafts? What happened here?
I noticed this too. He had way more time than a couple of minutes to wrap people up, move them to the elevator and plant explosives? but maybe it was a bad edit or mistake in the dialog? with the sedative, 5 minutes in the real world was 1 hour on layer 1, a week on layer 2 and 10 years on layer 3. no gravity zone was layer 2 right? difference is 1:168, that means a 5 seconds drop in the van would give skinny guy 14 minutes on layer 2. does that make sense?
Bad edit is all it is, and quite a whopper in retrospect. I don't want to be too much of a saber rattler, but this wouldn't be the first time I mentioned Nolan makes these kinds of mistakes. He knows how to make a slick movie (this being the slickest, perhaps) but he's always made errors that should be ironed out in the script phase or post production that baffle me. Dark Knight was full of roaring inconsistencies that so pissed me off first time round I barely liked anything except Heath Ledger.
1up wrote:I had a good discussion about this with my gf after the film last night, and we basically came to the same conclusionas you. He's so obsessed with getting back to his kids that he accepts that was happening at the end was reality. That maybe Mal was right about jumping to her death as it wasn't reality and that it really was Cobb refusing to accept that they were still in a dream state. That Cobb has always been stuck in Limbo. That his totem was playing tricks on him as it wasn't his, it was Mals'.
He touched the top for the first time in Limbo when he found it in the safe, and if he never got back to reality, he couldn't possibly know the weight of it. Only what his subconcious told him it weighed. Therefore when he 'thinks' he's in reality and spins the top and it falls over, it's because he thinks its reality and his subconcious tells him that the top falls over. But he doesn't actually know the attributes of the totem.

I also want to know how they got the 'kick' and woke up on the plane. Also, how they end up in Cobbs Limbo? Layer 1 was Fischers dream, layer 2 was Arthurs and layer 3 was Eames and layer 4 was Cobbs with Fischer hooked up? Don't they have to be hooked up to exist in the next layer? as a non-projection? How did Saito get to Cobbs Limbo?
Wah, confusing! :)
I went and Wikipedia'd it for the plot. Reading it highlights that the movie isn't as clever as it suggests, it just has a complex sequence of events that, owing to the sci-fi element, make it appear to be mind-bending. It isn't that 'complicated' though, I was surprised how much I got on first viewing that correlates with the story breakdown. Unfortunately it does serve to highlight a few holes.
According to Michael Caine in an interview, the end has to be reality because he is in it. He is the inventor of the machine and isn't in the dream world, therefore whenever he is in a scene, it's reality.
I'm not sure I believe this though, and I don't think Nolan let on to Caine the more eccentric vibe to his overall idea. Caine could as easily be a 'projection' in Cobb's dream or limbo as his wife or anyone else.

I worry that essentially, Inception is a wonderful construct of a movie, but there's actually very little in it except a bundle of loose elements. I have a suspicion there is no definitive answer to the open questions, and not because it's all based on a metaphor, but because it's just meant to confuse. That's not so appealing.
Were it a film with a metaphorical message, it would have more substance and be worthy of more afterthought. Rather, it's best to take it for what it is, an enjoyable 2 hours of Hollywood entertainment with no real message or answers.
GaijinPunch wrote:I'll give you that, Skykid. I don't think it's a masterpiece either... just a good solid movie. Honestly, I thought Watanabe brought a LOT to the table... so rare for a Japanese actor.
Despite this, I'm going to throw a future caveat out there and say that I thought The Prestige was better first time round than it was second (by a long way)
Yeah, interesting. I think I saw it the first time on cable so wasn't into it so my opinion is a bit skewed. While I like the story (and that the entire movie is just layered w/ "illusions") I think the recreation of the time still steals the show for me.
I like Watanabe better than most modern Japanese actors... no, probably all of them (Hiroyuki Sanada couldn't act his way out of a paper bag.)

Oddly enough, the reason the Prestige fell in my estimation the second time was to do with how noticeably sloppy elements of the period were. Bale's wife (who was absolutely dreadful) and all of the key actors in that movie don't play their parts as though they're in the period at all. Nolan failed to bother having them speak and behave as they would have done at the time, so instead they all sound and act like present day actors, which jars massively. I don't know if this is intentional, but it didn't work for me - people didn't talk/act back then like we do now.
It was an error of the film as far as I could see.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

Post by CMoon »

OMG, Skykid saw Inception!!??

Well yeah, the creators of this thread called it a masterpiece. What the hell's a masterpiece? A film we'll watch 40 years later? Nolan hasn't made that film yet, but I think this and Dark Knight are outstanding films of this decade (now that this decade is over, really, what's better...oh shiz! new thread!)

Personally I don't really want to watch Inception again anytime soon. I agree with some other posters here that while the films apparent complexity/sophistication works well for a single setting, I'm worried that additional viewings might reveal that there's nothing else there. Multiple-viewing people can support/deny this claim, until then, I'm sticking to my innitial memories of this being a good sci-fi action bout with some pretty interesting notions to ponder. Incidentally, I like TDK better because I feel it is very rewatchable. I too hate the super-praise that movie gets, but I'm not going to discount it becuase of the fans.
It does happen to be a surprisingly original and well orchestrated bit of thought provoking sci-fi, and I do enjoy such things. It's stylishly shot, has plenty of adrenaline and it gets your brain into a very interesting groove. This amounts to a very slick Hollywood movie, and by todays bottom-of-the-barrel standards, certainly a cut above most.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Skykid wrote:I'm not sure how much I enjoyed being confused by Inception, but I'm guessing quite a bit because confusing the audience was its main objective. By offering layered confusion, it's actually brilliant at convincing you it's smarter than it actually is. What is smart is that it pulls of said confusion as seemingly intelligent, so props for that at least.
I'm not going to bore myself again by watching to refresh my memory but really - Inception was confusing? It's one of the most ordered and clear films I've seen!
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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cools wrote:
Skykid wrote:I'm not sure how much I enjoyed being confused by Inception, but I'm guessing quite a bit because confusing the audience was its main objective. By offering layered confusion, it's actually brilliant at convincing you it's smarter than it actually is. What is smart is that it pulls of said confusion as seemingly intelligent, so props for that at least.
I'm not going to bore myself again by watching to refresh my memory but really - Inception was confusing? It's one of the most ordered and clear films I've seen!
You should consider watching all your movies without the aid of LSD! :)
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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It's becoming rapidly apparent that I'm likely significantly autistic, which might go some way towards explaining it :lol:
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

Post by 1up »

Skykid wrote:
1up wrote:
skykid wrote: So, why, when heavily sedated, if killed you fall into limbo in the first dream level, but if you die underneath that level you only kick yourself back up to the one above?
explain? saito got shot on the first layer and went to limbo. Fincher was shot on the third layer and was sent to limbo. noone else died, except lots and lots of projections.
But didn't they use death to kick back up the layers? They fall down lift shafts, Fischer is pushed off the edge of a building to magically an simultaneously work with his defibrilation on the layer above (good timing) and then (unlike Saito) walks away from his bullet death unscathed. :idea:
Ariadne also plunges off the edge of a drop to kick back up the layer, and Cobb does it with his wife to return from limbo. So when did they explain you can be shot on layer 1 under heavy sedation and fall into limbo, but die whenever you need to thereafter to trigger kicks? Dunno what I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to compute. Seems to me to be more of Nolan's fanciful script writing with a bunch of loose ends.
I see what youre saying and after thinking about it, it makes no sense to me either? They use the example of balance. if in real life you fall, you will automatically wake up. They need to be in a falling motion to be able to kick out of a layer as killing themselves is a bad idea. but why do they need a 'thud' to finish the transition? because of the sedatives? anyways, if they go by the example, theres no reason to be in a falling state in limbo, but the layer before it. so Fischer should have been in a falling state in the snow layer? and in motion in the elevator in the second layer and in free fall in the van in the first layer. Did they explain why they needed the 'thud'. like a slap in the face to wake up + a falling state? that would mean tipping over on a chair in reality and only wake up when your face meets the floor...
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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1up wrote: I see what youre saying and after thinking about it, it makes no sense to me either? They use the example of balance. if in real life you fall, you will automatically wake up. They need to be in a falling motion to be able to kick out of a layer as killing themselves is a bad idea. but why do they need a 'thud' to finish the transition? because of the sedatives? anyways, if they go by the example, theres no reason to be in a falling state in limbo, but the layer before it. so Fischer should have been in a falling state in the snow layer? and in motion in the elevator in the second layer and in free fall in the van in the first layer. Did they explain why they needed the 'thud'. like a slap in the face to wake up + a falling state? that would mean tipping over on a chair in reality and only wake up when your face meets the floor...
No, no explanation around that as far as I remember. It's just a scripting oversight (or mistake, depending on how serious you want to be.)

Also, I thought of another thing that struck me last night. Time moves differently between layers, with limbo being the place where a short amount of real-world time can amount to tens of decades. This is why Saito is an old man when Cobb finds him, despite only arriving in limbo a short while after Saito finally died in the Call of Duty layer.
BUT, why wasn't Fischer then equally aged when Cobb and Adriana pursued him into limbo? From what I recall, Fischer died BEFORE Saito, yet when they found him in Cobb's wife's pad, he hadn't aged at all.

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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Well they went in and went straight for Mals house. He knew she would be there. Maybe he had to search around for Saito? but then again, it didnt look like Cobb had aged much at all
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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Skykid wrote: You should consider watching all your movies without the aid of LSD! :)
There was a time in my life when I only saw movies like this.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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I have never watched movies like that but I did play Panzer dragoon and F-Zero among other like this (on that). i was always fearful of going to a theater like that.... actually no I wasn't, I just never thought of it.
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

I thought the old asian guy was all old and stuff in the 4th layer because he'd been shot and near-death when brought into the layer and thus is mentally deteriorating, but oh well.

I liked the movie. It was good and I like the soundtrack. That's my opinion and not up for debate. :P
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Re: Checked out the sci-fi masterpiece that is Inception?

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I can see you guys have been at this for a while and I'm not going to read the whole thread because frankly this film was boring and I don't feel like wasting much more time on it. I just watched it the other day and was unimpressed. The premise has merit but all of the rules about dream-states are completely arbitrary; the characters are all smugly certain of how everything works but their explanations are empty when they have time for one at all. Then there's the fact that when there's so much potential for surreal imagery and plot we get instead: bank robberies, car chases, gunfights, and a "time is running out, hurry!" climax -- generic action movie shit. Scenes are set up around the special effects... DiCaprio's character is mopey and his back-story makes him look like an idiot, especially since he's supposed to have more than a life-time's experience.

The idea of invading and influencing a person's dreams has potential, but I felt Inception squandered it. To me it all felt so awkwardly put together and illogical that I could only conclude that the whole movie was a dream and none of the characters or events ever existed or happened at all.
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