Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

[jonny5]

What's the big deal? I mean, seriously!

The port was sold and now its a second hand market, meaning cave has made its money there, and will not make more regardless of piracy. Based on how the port sold it would be pretty surprising if they did anymore runs.

The PCB is several years out of production, so again, cave has made its money, they are not profiting from this game anymore.

The same thing goes for DOJ pretty much.

So when it comes right down to it, who are you hurting by playing these games in MAME? The 2nd hand market? The feelings of collectors who are only in it for the exclusivity of owning something most can't have/get?

I'm obviously a fan and supporter of cave, but I don't see this as hurting them at all.

Just my 2 cents

[emphatic]

The only active "earner" from DOJ right now is IGS with their rather recent cart release, but even that has a new mode not present in MAME, so whatever. And that's in East-Asian arcades only. Unless you count the few owned by private collectors.

[jonny5]

The only active "earner" from DOJ right now is IGS with their rather recent cart release, but even that has a new mode not present in MAME, so whatever. And that's in East-Asian arcades only. Unless you count the few owned by private collectors.

I forgot about that one. Good call Emph!

Still, you know what I mean. Even that one, cave just licensed the game to IGS, so they got paid.

[Tigershark]

I'm not going through all 6 pages (far too late in the UK) but my own personal view is that just because a game has been emulated does not mean I won't buy it at retail for a console (e.g. Mars Matrix, 1944, RS, Giga Wing and the other Cave releases for the PS1 and 2 etc etc etc). The only Cave games I have not yet bought for my UK XBox are those that require a Japanese machine (i.e. Ketsui). I may get a Japanese machine eventually (like I have for the SS, DC and PS2) and when I do I'll probably get Ketsui.

Lastly, as far as I am aware all Cave games on Mame have been emulated without permission. I think it becomes a difficult argument to sustain to suggest that it's ok to emulate older games that have either not had a console release or did so a long time ago but that it's not ok with older games that have just been released. The emulation is either legal or its not.

[captpain]

TRUTH

+1

[kamiboy]

The fine folks on "Warning A Huge Podcast" speculated a very likely cause for CAVE not doing region free releases anymore. Cave has found some publishing partners willing to put their niche games into foreign markets. They know and the publishing partners know that anything by CAVE is in the low end of the niche spectrum catering to a small but very dedicated clientele.

Now these publishers might have already optioned CAVE for releasing or potentially be interested in releasing any of their future titles in foreign regions as well. Thing is for CAVE to release a region free copy of said future projects at this juncture would be like taking a dump on the future prospects of any interested foreign publishers. Sure they might sell a few more domestic copies by going region free, but with the small numbers that their game usually do this number will be sizable enough in the eyes of these foreign publishers. Or perhaps it is not that sizable but they asked CAVE not to do it anyway to protect their interests, or perhaps no one asked CAVE, but they do it anyway because the publishing money in their coffers is more valuable to them than what importers will gain them so they do not want to bite the hand that best feeds them.

Think about it, I have heard that the way that the Japanese retail game industry works is that you get almost all of your sales on launch day. So all the surplus stock that retailers are left with afterward basically become dead stock and end up being discounted until they fester in bargain bins waiting to vanish. This means that there is no demand for a second pressing after launch day and unless you, meaning the importers, are going to somehow put in a pre-order for your copy so as to increase the number of launch day retail orders then your purchase is of no value to CAVE. Unless you pre-order you are just going to end up with a discounted surplus copy or a used one, neither of any profit or gain to CAVE.

Anyway, it sounds likely enough.

[kernow]

What's the big deal? I mean, seriously!

ITS JUST TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT JONNY I MEAN TOO CLOSE I'M QUIVERING RIGHT HERE AT HOW CLOSE IT IS

[neorichieb1971]

Kernow you make me laugh sometimes.

After reading all of the above it is sounding like a cut throat business. CAVE might be one variable away from giving up this crusade they are on. Think about it, they found a way to get through the politics by releasing for a console wether it be 1st or 3rd party. They barely break even on pre-orders on occasion and their work clashes with MAME tyrants. IGS might have paid for a DOJ license but that sounds like a bad deal so IGS won't do that again. I will buy the IGS version but not at todays prices, I am not an arcade.

Sounds to me like CAVE require double and triple dippers, foreign players, local players, arcade players, online players. They need EVERYONE. Not to mention that some people are ALL of the former types of players mentioned.

Now when you consider the arcade boards protection has been broken, how scary is that for CAVE? How scary is it that their next board will be even closer? Remember Samurai Shodown 5 on MVS, it was broken in days of release. I think thats a very real possibility for CAVE.

So when someone like the OP states a concern, its not a laughing matter. This thread will live on no doubt, fueled by the lust and greed for free players who can cut through their conscience with a click of a button. DOWNLOAD! Admittedly the MAME players are just taking delivery of their order. But its the people delivering it that are to answer for the consequences.

[emphatic]

IGS might have paid for a DOJ license but that sounds like a bad deal so IGS won't do that again. I will buy the IGS version but not at todays prices, I am not an arcade.

I think that this is doing quite well in the arcades of Asia, so I bet they are laughing all the way to the bank. Also, CAVE has surely dropped support for their PGM games along with refusing to fix Mushihimesama boards' bugs anymore, so for operators to invest in a TATE shmup title for a CURRENT system makes total sense.

Now when you consider the arcade boards protection has been broken, how scary is that for CAVE? How scary is it that their next board will be even closer? Remember Samurai Shodown 5 on MVS, it was broken in days of release. I think thats a very real possibility for CAVE.

How so? They've only published DeathSmiles 2 themselves for the arcade, so when do their hurting begin, I wonder?

So when someone like the OP states a concern, its not a laughing matter.

[Ex-Cyber]

MAME tyrants

LOL WUT

Now when you consider the arcade boards protection has been broken, how scary is that for CAVE? How scary is it that their next board will be even closer? Remember Samurai Shodown 5 on MVS, it was broken in days of release. I think thats a very real possibility for CAVE.

Which board is broken? Last I heard, per-game protection on PGM games still required per-game decapping except for games whose protection was just crap in the first place, and CV1000 has half its guts in an FPGA, so they don't necessarily even need to change any of the actual silicon or board if they want to try a new protection scheme.

[neorichieb1971]

Last I heard anything that works in MAME has had its protection cracked.

Perhaps DOJ or Ketsui do not use todays standards of protection but I am sure its still a worry for CAVE.

[Kaiser]

Last I heard anything that works in MAME has had its protection cracked.

Perhaps DOJ or Ketsui do not use todays standards of protection but I am sure its still a worry for CAVE.

I believe it's later cave games that have protections on them (post ketsui that is) so those ones will be harder to crack, but it's a rumor.

[THE]

Which board is broken? Last I heard, per-game protection on PGM games still required per-game decapping except for games whose protection was just crap in the first place, and CV1000 has half its guts in an FPGA, so they don't necessarily even need to change any of the actual silicon or board if they want to try a new protection scheme.

Cave didn't put good use into the possibilities that the ARM7 protection gave them. It was so bad protected a 10 years old could have cracked it in a few days. Cave probably didn't care, from an arcade manufacturer POV it doesn't matter to much, if the old hardware/games are cracked several years after abandonment of the platform.

The SH3 uses a different protection, albeit not really better. I'm certain, that the SH3 can be emulated within a few weeks. After all, emulation is rather trivial, unless you really emulate it down to circuit levels. The speed problems with the 133Mhz SH3 emulation can be solved, GPU emulation can be speed up easily too. As long as the EMU team does not use Mame and does a custom emulator its quite easy to do with acceptable computer requirements...
It's just a matter of time until we see basically all SH3 games from one day to another emulated...but it doesn't matter, soon all Cave games are available to the x360.

@neorichieb1971

Better sell your SH3 wives now

[neorichieb1971]

The CAVE PCB's I have are -

DDP £180
ESP ra.de £150
Mushimesama 1.0 Approx £280 for the kit
Ibara £180 for the kit (I got it with ESP Gal 2 kit for around £400-£450 but sold it)

My bitches are doing well and I love them so much. I won't get rid unless they break. I bought the first 2 well after they were MAMED.

[gs68]

Now that Ketsui is emulated, I feel like I'd be wasting 80-90 USD for buying the 360 port.

Cave and 5pb aren't gonna care if I go the legal route and import. It's a region-locked 360 game. Whether goddamned gaijin like me import the game or simply MAME it makes no difference to them.

So now the only reasons for me to snap up a J360 are for DFK 1.5 and Black Label.

[bcass]

Now that Ketsui is emulated, I feel like I'd be wasting 80-90 USD for buying the 360 port.

Cave and 5pb aren't gonna care if I go the legal route and import. It's a region-locked 360 game. Whether goddamned gaijin like me import the game or simply MAME it makes no difference to them.

So now the only reasons for me to snap up a J360 are for DFK 1.5 and Black Label.

Wrong. The 360 port has a good number of features/extras that the PCB/MAME versions will never have. If you hadn't noticed, a lot of people consider X-Mode to be excellent in its own right.

[Vyxx]

Now that Ketsui is emulated, I feel like I'd be wasting 80-90 USD for buying the 360 port.

Cave and 5pb aren't gonna care if I go the legal route and import.

It's easy to say "I'm just one guy, no one will be affected if I don't buy the port and simply emulate it" but the fact of the matter is that there will be hundreds to thousands of people thinking the same way you do, and voila.

I would think that this would be a stepping stone. Allow new comers to try out these masterpieces, as well as anyone who hasn't played them yet. If you actually like DoJ or Ketsui, buy the damn games.

[kernow]

A ton of people on their modded 360's didn't even pay for the ports. cough.

[Vyxx]

A ton of people on their modded 360's didn't even pay for the ports. cough.

True enough I suppose.

[trap15]

After all, emulation is rather trivial, unless you really emulate it down to circuit levels

This offends me in ways I cannot even begin to describe.

[BiQ]

I imported Ketsui Extra new (and Espgaluda II, for that matter) even if I don't have any xbox360. I fully intend to use my ownership of Ketsui Extra to soothe my conscience when I'll be playing Ketsui in mame in future, when I get off my arse to build that new Win7+Linux computer.

I might also get me a region-modded xbox if I learn they are any good.

FWIW, I also own DDPDOJ, Espgaluda and Mushihimesama on PS2, and own a modded PS2 which I do not use to play "backups". I guess I should get me DDPDOJ BLEX if I want to fire up DOJBL in mame.

Then again, I do play obscene amounts of DDP these days (and still sucking in it) without actually owning it on any platform.

[Dave_K.]

Wrong. The 360 port has a good number of features/extras that the PCB/MAME versions will never have. If you hadn't noticed, a lot of people consider X-Mode to be excellent in its own right.

NEWS JUST IN: JPN XB360 COLLECTOR LOOKS DOWN HIS NOSE AT THE EMULATION COMMUNITY.

*TUMBLEWEED*

[bcass]

You must have serious confidence issues if you consider my comment to be anywhere near as derisory as the crap THE wrote in that other thread.

[neorichieb1971]

What you write here sticks to you for life. Better make each word count.

[captpain]

What you write here sticks to you for life. Better make each word count.

It's a fucking internet forum you weirdo. We're talking about video games. This is beyond trivial.

[mjclark]

What you write here sticks to you for life. Better make each word count.

I didn't realise I could get so irritated just from reading lol
If people can get this upset that Ketsui is being emulated on MAME, that only makes it all the fuckin' better if you ask me
If I had $500 to spend on PCBs, I'd buy a plane ticket to Tokyo and go shoplifting instead.

[neorichieb1971]

What you write here sticks to you for life. Better make each word count.

It's a fucking internet forum you weirdo. We're talking about video games. This is beyond trivial.

I did come back on the basis personal attacks would be omitted. Like you say its a forum not a gang.

[NR777]

Every time someone cries about emulation, god kills a midget. Think about the midgets, people.

[captpain]

What you write here sticks to you for life. Better make each word count.

It's a fucking internet forum you weirdo. We're talking about video games. This is beyond trivial.

I did come back on the basis personal attacks would be omitted. Like you say its a forum not a gang.

You reeeeally ought to consider taking all of this a lot less seriously. They're just words on a computer screen, produced by people who are often thousands of miles away. We're talking about 8-year-old video games that nobody has ever heard of but us.

[david peterson]

So when will we get the espgaluda dump? GEIF