Poor Graphics Card Performance

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ZacharyB
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Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by ZacharyB »

My 10-year-old computer recently shorted out somewhere in the motherboard, so I had to set up my backup computer, merely 5 years old.

This computer is superior to the old computer in every way. It has 785 MB of RAM instead of 128. The processor speed is something like 1,800 MHz instead of 800 MHz. And it has a TNT2 Model 64 graphics card... this graphics card has its own cooling fan.

But the performance of my games on this computer is worse than on my 10-year-old computer. I get slowdown in anything that isn't an emulator. My old graphics card was better? It was an ATi Rage 128. It didn't have a cooling fan.

Here's a screenshot of my graphics card info:

Image

Is there something wrong here? Is there some kind of setting I should enable, or newer software I should download? I was using Windows98 on my older computer too.

I'll also add in that this card seems to be terrible with CRTs, worse than my old one. I get some blur along high-contrast edges.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Tangent first: First thing to do is visit Windows Update. Then visit DirectX .com to see if there isn't a newer version which supports Windows 98. Then visit nvidia.com and search for the newest graphics driver for that card. Then get rid of the graphics card because it still will be too slow...there's only so much you can do with 8 or maybe 16 MB of RAM. That's also a rather high amount of RAM for Windows 98 - not the most stable operating system. I would at least upgrade to Windows 98 SE (I don't condone piracy, but Microsoft doesn't seem to be enforcing activation on Windows 98 SE - there's a key which apparently a Microsoft person leaked for you to use. I suspect most people use it with Virtual PC). So then you'll want to get rid of Windows 98 as well, because the newest versions of your internet browser (certainly IE, certainly Firefox) don't support it. VLC Media Player doesn't support it after 0.8.6c (which was a couple years ago). Windows 98 isn't too stable and probably has more than its fair share of known security holes, so you won't want to do any internet banking, eBay, or much of anything else on it. If you must use that PC, you probably should install Ubuntu just for the sake of newer software. I personally have a recently-set-up Windows 98 SE computer but I don't use it for these obvious reasons.

Okay, now to answer your question:

The computer may be 5 years old but the design of this card is over 10 years old. The TNT2 M64 is so old that its core predates the GeForce name (I think the specific model came out after the original Geforce 128...edit, GeForce 256...goofy name). It's a low-cost version of a 1999 card. Looked at Wikipedia a bit; apparently it outperforms the TNT...a 1998 card...but not the TNT2. The M64 comes from it having only a 64-bit bus, as opposed to an 128-bit one. You can read more on it here.

I used one of these for a number of years - it came in a OEM PC, probably a Presario (I'm not positively sure, but probably a Compaq 5461 sitting on the floor to my immediate right). That PC's CPU is an AMD K6-2, 450 or 500 MHz, 3D Now! technology (extra instruction set, supporting SIMD operations - helps graphical operations).

Poor performance is normal for this card.

I've never used an ATi card (though I've been sitting on one for nearly two years now...) so I can't compare. There were different models of Rage 128, too, I believe, but overall I think they were rather close in spec, being out about the same time. The one good point about the TNT2 M64 is that it has a better list of bullet-points than the other cards, such as supporting bigger textures, and some other stuff. I think even better color. But not speed, necessarily.

I vividly remember, back in the good old days, editing the .WAD with Day of Defeat's texture file in hopes of lessening the hit on the graphics card (as a whim, I also tried replacing weapon sounds with the spoken name of each gun...I learned quickly about how sounds are actually played...). I say "the good old days" because the game wasn't smart enough to notice the difference, no VAC ban, heh. I don't think it made much of a difference to FPS, unfortunately. Day of Defeat, of course, is an old Half-Life engine modification. Now, how much of that was due to the CPU of the system, and how much was due to the GPU. I also remember there being trouble (well, some would call it a feature) with transparent walls (and very poor frame rates) in Quake 3, too. I don't think I ever ran games far below 1024x resolution because, well, there wasn't much point (it's especially important in a game like DOD to have a high resolution so you can see and actually aim accurately at things in the distance).

Thankfully, you can get a much better card for almost nothing.

First thing for you to do is compare what's in the old computer with the new one. I'll take your word that the old computer's components are mostly inferior to the new one; however, if only the motherboard is at fault, you may still have a graphics card in there, and it sounds like it might be better than what's in this system. There may also be other components worth taking out, like a sound card or a LAN card...though I doubt it. But it's still worth a look. The old hard drive may be worth saving as a special backup drive at least. Overall, though, it sounds like it's all ready to be parted out for donation, and the chassis / motherboard recycled.

What you upgrade with depends on how what kind of bus you have available - AGP or just plain PCI. How much wattage your power supply provides has an impact as well, but since there are lots of low-cost, low-heat, low-power options available that are also very cheap by now and also far more powerful than the TNT2, you have lots of options. AGP is too slow for modern purposes, but it was considerably more useful for graphics than standard 32-bit PCI ports. You can get fairly recent cards in both formats - I believe I've seen plain PCI cards from 2005 (about the time the new PCI-E standard appeared) - and AGP cards survived a bit longer still.

If you are serious about putting an AGP card into this old system for games up to maybe five years old (any newer and I think they would be terribly slow or at least require very low resolution and many features turned off), here's Tom's Hardware's recommendations: Best AGP cards for the money - January 2009. I think that's about the time they got rid of the AGP category entirely. PCI cards are a different matter, and you'll have to go back a few years further. Also, if you want to improve performance of an old computer, see if you can't find a good cheap IDE hard drive - there were some on Newegg somewhat recently, and they probably have much more space than your old drive, and might be very noticeable faster + quieter (not to mention more reliable) than the old one.

There is one other thing that comes to mind - you say the computer has 768MB of memory, which is either an odd number of memory modules (3 256MB modules) or unmatched ones (i.e. 256MB put in by the manufacturer for a basic configuration, plus a 512MB module). I don't know how much of an impact it makes, but it is possible in some cases to get performance problems from different specced RAM modules (though usually this is limited to a faster RAM stick simply clocking down to the speed of the slower one, no big deal). Probably isn't any problem, and it's best not to mess with it unless you're seeing troubles outside games.

If you want my advice, save up a few dollars to get an old computer with a dual-core or 64-bit CPU, and a motherboard with a PCI-E bus, and SATA hard drive connections. The motherboard will have to support all three elements, and all new hardware in the immediate future is being based off these parts. You get better bang for the buck than in trying to hunt down parts for obsolete systems, SATA is easier to manage than huge thick IDE cables, and you can do this all while still not using a lot of power. If anything dies in a system like this, for the next five years at least you will only have to replace one part, as opposed to having to replace the whole system including many perfectly working parts. For me, the winning bit is that you don't have to wait forever and a day for tasks to complete. Though I realize by advocating getting a newer system, I'm suggesting just the reverse of this, but AGP and that other stuff is SO OLD.

There is a good old saying - "if it ain't broke..." - but sometimes when you see a problem coming over the horizon it can be worth taking a hit now to prevent being stuck without your essential tools. For me, there's little as aggravating as having to wait around for your computer to do things, which was the case on old systems (such as those with AGP graphics cards). Just getting a dual-core CPU has made life immensely easier.
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gct
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by gct »

Agreed with Ed's advice here. Lots of people are upgrading their PCs at this time, so there are plenty of highly capable multi-core socket 775 & AM2-based complete systems on the used market for a very low price.

These systems surely have PCI-E slots for video cards, and even some relatively low-end cards will do fine. I installed a Nvidia GT 240 in my father's HTPC yesterday, it runs Starcraft II smoothly at 1600x900 on Ultra detail :shock: Not bad for $45.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by Ed Oscuro »

gct wrote:I installed a Nvidia GT 240 in my father's HTPC yesterday, it runs Starcraft II smoothly at 1600x900 on Ultra detail :shock: Not bad for $45.
Tom's "best for the money" chart this month only has a $60 option, the Radeon 5570 DDR3. So then the :shock: comes in to play again - the GT 240 is ranked a bit faster than the 5570 DDR3 on this page of a review, though I don't see it on the Tom Clancy's HAWX page (an incompatibility?)

I wouldn't replace my GeForce 8800 GTS with it, but damn, that's not bad.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by ZacharyB »

Thanks for the huge and informative reply. I guess the cooling fan threw me! The ATi only had a small 1"x1" heat sink. And yeah, I'd been wondering whether I should get a new OS. Need to drop the $200-$300 soon, but I'm trying to hold out.

I'd wanted to use my old graphics card--I still have that old computer--but when I went to put it into the video card slot, I realized it didn't fit. It seems like that video card slot is different. The new computer is an nVidia motherboad and it seems to be able to only take nVidia cards...?
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by Ed Oscuro »

There's an old AMD 64 (single-core) PC sitting near me here, as well, which isn't in use. It's had some issues in the past (I believe it was in a too-warm environment, and additionally put in a rather tight space) but I'm going to see if it was working. It may not be worth your while to have an old machine shipped to you, but it's somewhere around 2003-2005-ish vintage and a "gaming PC" for the time, more or less. It gets your foot in the door on PCI Express and SATA (I have a secondary hard drive running in this computer from that old machine, in fact). I said I'd look into the system, and if it works I suppose we might know the right place to send it. At the very least it's a good PC case and there should be some other useful components in it.

Also, I'd like to mention that SATA with good drivers - at least Intel's IHC8R implementation, which isn't AMD but it's Core 2 Duo era (so 2006) - allows more or less hot swapping of hard drives. All I do is change drives as needed when the system is off (cold swap). I find this useful.

I would check eBay to get an idea what's out there...though be wary of buying from there. You also will want to clearly define what you expect out of a new(-er) computer, so you don't buy something too expensive for your needs, but also not an underperformer that happens to be cheap.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by ZacharyB »

Wow, that's a generous offer. Thank you. I'm not really in need of another computer at the moment, because I have a few auxiliary computers hanging around (all newer). I'm out of room. I just wanted to know what was up with this newer-looking, underperforming graphics card.

This computer is primarily for my graphics work, and it's already faster in anything that doesn't have to do with games, so I'm happy with it as it is... especially after that 10-year-old computer. If necessary, I can get a better graphics card using your advice and then get an OS upgrade for the drivers... and all the games I can't play because all the newer stuff for Windows requires an NT framework anyway. :)

I was also looking at a few online stores for computer hardware, like Newegg. I was shocked to find that it was possible to build an entire computer for not a lot of dough. The cheapest motherboard, seeming to be equivalent or better than this old stuff I have, was around $35. SATA drives were also cheap. A brand new comp would be something like $150. Throw an old monitor on there and voila.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by gray117 »

Ah I love old hardware/memories - I believe you're more than served on advice so I will ramble;

- tnt2? ... er... pre-geforce 1... aka 256 ... I've got an idea in my head that all tnts were better than first 3dfx but worse than a voodoo 2?

Maybe there's an old driver version that will fix your woes - depends on windows version perhaps? The ati rage range was an eclectic mix of cards; hard to say if they're all better.

Its getting hard to find agp cards sometimes, let alone pci ones so I'm sure you'll be upgrade bound... I want to go play gl quake or some of those early versions of counterstrike...
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by Ed Oscuro »

gray117 wrote:- tnt2? ... er... pre-geforce 1... aka 256 ... I've got an idea in my head that all tnts were better than first 3dfx but worse than a voodoo 2?
The TNT2s were about on par with Voodoo3s, actually. Here's a review of a highly clocked TNT2: Firing Squad article. The M64 version has less performance (Xbit Labs) but shouldn't have been enough to drop it to the level of a Voodoo2. Then again, this page argued that the m64 drops to the level of an original TNT in some situations.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by ED-057 »

I think the Rage 128/128pro were fairly close to the TNT/TNT2, I wouldn`t expect the difference to be huge. The newest directx for win98 that I ever saw was 9.0b, I have the installer for it around here somewhere. An earlier video driver might be an improvement for that card. I had a TNT (96/117MHz) and a TNT2 m64 pro (133/166MHz), the latter was a bit faster but not by much, and I recall trying the driver downloaded from nVidia, and then going back to the version from Diamond, for the Viper V550.

GeForce FX cards work fine in win98. 6xxx series and the 7300 are supposed to work too but I never tried it. Radeon 9xxx cards also work, but you might need an older version of the driver because the latest one crashed on some motherboards. (BTW, Firefox 2.x and Opera work in win98)
Its getting hard to find agp cards sometimes, let alone pci ones
...maybe if you are looking at a PC retailer. But eBay is littered with them (so is my bedroom), even ISA cards.

An ST-506 to USB adaptor is hard to find. A video card isn`t, and won`t be in the near future.

A Sempron 2600+ isn't bad, at least it can run all the shmups in MAME that we just played in STGT.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by ZacharyB »

By the way, to amend this topic, I'd been trying to get good performance with MAME32.exe, which is where I could not. Switching to the normal command-line based MAME.exe ended up giving me all the performance I could ask for, even better than my old computer/ATI RAGE 128 (finally).
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by gray117 »

it did occur to me looking at your first ss - maybe there's something that it doesn't like about newer driectx versions ... specifically as concerned directdraw ... the mameui one goes via this I think?
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Oh wow, that's precisely the card I have. Frankly I think its great compared to some of the Integrated graphics cards Ive seen around the place.
What Im trying to do with this legacy machine now is to boost performance by stripping it down to minimum software requirements.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by Ed Oscuro »

In my experience that will only take you so far. What are you thinking of removing in hopes of speeding it up? If you have lots of programs with heavy GUI elements, by all means cut back on those. You can't really get rid of critical Windows components though.

Your best bet really is to get some cheap parts for a new computer...there's some pretty good options out there well under $600 that will blow away your current setup, guaranteed. You could probably do pretty well with just $200, even.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Ed Oscuro wrote:In my experience that will only take you so far. What are you thinking of removing in hopes of speeding it up? If you have lots of programs with heavy GUI elements, by all means cut back on those. You can't really get rid of critical Windows components though.

Your best bet really is to get some cheap parts for a new computer...there's some pretty good options out there well under $600 that will blow away your current setup, guaranteed. You could probably do pretty well with just $200, even.
Yeah but 1) I'm a cheapskate and 2) everything is stupidly overpriced or geared for 2010 gaming computers here anyway so I'm stuck at buying a $1000+ laptop (avoiding Intel GMA of course) for a real replacement solution, or going to one of these said gaming computer places and getting one of their budget ones they fire up, which is near on $1000 including getting new keyboards and crap anyway. I do plan on putting some of my old electronics junk (who needs a GameCube when you have a Wii XD) into Cash Converters to get some extra dough in preparation for something like that, but I want to make do with what I have first.
I have heard of cases where people have stripped down key parts of windows that arent used anyway like LAN-related junk and printer stuff, even so far as a program that will give you the option to install an almost completely stripped WinXP. :lol:
For the record, most MAME games work fine, but its the newer ones with some unstable framerates and Shmupmame v2.2 being based off MAME .140's bloated performance hog that caused me to find this thread to begin with. I have games that either run at 100% or 6-10/10 autoframeskip (Ketsui and the Raiden Fighters titles), and Im hoping that simple performance cuts to conserve the CPU and RAM bottleneck will help. I used to have 512 MB (2 256MB chips) of RAM but my old game project blew one card up along with Windows, so I eventually reinstalled XP with a pathetic 256 MB.
Also, rotating doesnt work on this card, I swear I used to be able to get it to work but since the reinstallation of XP and the drivers it wont do it. Im hoping iRotate will do the trick though.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BPzeBanshee wrote:I have heard of cases where people have stripped down key parts of windows that arent used anyway like LAN-related junk and printer stuff, even so far as a program that will give you the option to install an almost completely stripped WinXP. :lol:
With hardware newer than, say, systems that originally shipped with Windows 98 and XP, you'd be really really hard pressed to tell the difference in anything but functionality and convenience that you lose. Believe me, I've been trying since 1996 to speed Windows up, and even in the dark days of Windows 95 and 98 there was precious little that could be done, and more to the point in a program like MAME which reserves nearly 100% of CPU cycled anyway, you probably couldn't tell the difference even using a recorded demo and watching the percentage options. There are legitimate tweaks for every versions of Windows, but more recently they are focused on appearance. A lot of the old "tweaks" people preach on the Internet are nothing more than myth - settings that don't do what people think they do and which in some cases don't even exist anymore (there's a few of these in Windows XP - my favorite crock'o'shit baloney tweaks revolve around the paging file).

With Windows Search in XP, in Vista, and perhaps with Windows 7, you might gain a little bit of responsiveness from the hard drive if you turn off indexing services, but that's for awesome people who have a great filing system they slave away on for hours and hours (that or they don't save anything much to their computer) - and even for them, Windows 7 can find stuff by pressing START + typing in the name of a program or file = it comes right up. I can bring up WordPad faster this way than I could by clicking with the mouse, and almost as fast as I could bring up the first item in a program nested in the Start Menu. Stuff that really would have been possible to do in XP quite easily but just was saved for whatever reason.

Anyway the upshot of all this is that, printer, Windows Messenger, and other foolishness aside, Windows is basically tailored for everyday use, and not just by clueless people! ;)

And no, you don't have to spend $1000 on a new PC...you could, if you reallly wanted to, but you don't have to. Cheapest Core i5 entry in Newegg's desktop (includes mouse and keyboard) section is $649.99. There's a much better-looking option (better i5 series CPU, Radeon HD 5450 instead of Intel GMA) for twenty bucks more at $669.99. Both these options include Windows 7 64-bit. If you needed less than Core i5 performance, even old Core 2 Duo PCs are perfectly fine for many games and most titles in MAME - Dell has an option available for $399.99.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Ed Oscuro wrote:With hardware newer than, say, systems that originally shipped with Windows 98 and XP, you'd be really really hard pressed to tell the difference in anything but functionality and convenience that you lose. Believe me, I've been trying since 1996 to speed Windows up, and even in the dark days of Windows 95 and 98 there was precious little that could be done, and more to the point in a program like MAME which reserves nearly 100% of CPU cycled anyway, you probably couldn't tell the difference even using a recorded demo and watching the percentage options. There are legitimate tweaks for every versions of Windows, but more recently they are focused on appearance. A lot of the old "tweaks" people preach on the Internet are nothing more than myth - settings that don't do what people think they do and which in some cases don't even exist anymore (there's a few of these in Windows XP - my favorite crock'o'shit baloney tweaks revolve around the paging file).

With Windows Search in XP, in Vista, and perhaps with Windows 7, you might gain a little bit of responsiveness from the hard drive if you turn off indexing services, but that's for awesome people who have a great filing system they slave away on for hours and hours (that or they don't save anything much to their computer) - and even for them, Windows 7 can find stuff by pressing START + typing in the name of a program or file = it comes right up. I can bring up WordPad faster this way than I could by clicking with the mouse, and almost as fast as I could bring up the first item in a program nested in the Start Menu. Stuff that really would have been possible to do in XP quite easily but just was saved for whatever reason.

Anyway the upshot of all this is that, printer, Windows Messenger, and other foolishness aside, Windows is basically tailored for everyday use, and not just by clueless people! ;)

And no, you don't have to spend $1000 on a new PC...you could, if you reallly wanted to, but you don't have to. Cheapest Core i5 entry in Newegg's desktop (includes mouse and keyboard) section is $649.99. There's a much better-looking option (better i5 series CPU, Radeon HD 5450 instead of Intel GMA) for twenty bucks more at $669.99. Both these options include Windows 7 64-bit. If you needed less than Core i5 performance, even old Core 2 Duo PCs are perfectly fine for many games and most titles in MAME - Dell has an option available for $399.99.
Thanks very much for the advice!
Too bad I'm quite restricted (not allowed, I live in a house where everything online is made to give you trojans and steal your money:lol:) when it comes to buying anything from the internet, and stuff that would otherwise not cost much really is overcharged where I live, no joke. We have the most expensive groceries in Australia for example.
Ive also had a not-so-great experience with 64-bit machines, especially with the new Win7 ones not working with games like Xeno Fighters and older 32-bit programs. I do still want my machine to be accessible. I guess I really need to get around to doing some research on websites that will ship to where I live in Australia, and if the price of shipping etc is counterintuitive versus the $800-1000 laptops/desktops I can buy locally and take straight back and complain to someone in person if I have problems. :P
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by Ed Oscuro »

It's true, everything online is intended to put a trojan on your computer and / or steal your money.

But anyway, you should open a PayPal account or something in secret and buy stuff that way. I haven't had to use a credit card for much.

32-bit compatibility is a concern, yeah, although I haven't had any compatibility issues myself...there is a 32-bit compatibility mode available, which you might try out.

Programs that would run better under Windows XP can be run on a Windows XP "emulator" released by Microsoft, which used to be called Virtual PC (and used to let you run versions of Windows going back to Windows 3.1...shame I never got to use it) but is now called XP Mode. That is found here. Unfortunately Microsoft don't seem to allow that it might be useful for old games, talking about "old business software" but it may be helpful.
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Ed Oscuro wrote:It's true, everything online is intended to put a trojan on your computer and / or steal your money.

But anyway, you should open a PayPal account or something in secret and buy stuff that way. I haven't had to use a credit card for much.

32-bit compatibility is a concern, yeah, although I haven't had any compatibility issues myself...there is a 32-bit compatibility mode available, which you might try out.

Programs that would run better under Windows XP can be run on a Windows XP "emulator" released by Microsoft, which used to be called Virtual PC (and used to let you run versions of Windows going back to Windows 3.1...shame I never got to use it) but is now called XP Mode. That is found here. Unfortunately Microsoft don't seem to allow that it might be useful for old games, talking about "old business software" but it may be helpful.
I'll definitely keep all of this in mind. :wink:

XP Mode according to that page is a function of Virtual PC that must be obtained separately and only works on the higher-tier versions of Windows 7.
When it comes to games, in my experience VirtualBox has been the best for that, because they're actively working on D3D support. Really though, I'll take a look around after Christmas and set up my PayPal account if I have to providing I dont have to directly link to bank accounts (I hear there's prepaid cards and stuff like that now, will need to check this out too :D).
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BPzeBanshee wrote:XP Mode according to that page is a function of Virtual PC that must be obtained separately and only works on the higher-tier versions of Windows 7.
Yeah, Pro and Ultimate...Pro is only about $70 right now though (and I went with Ultimate for the better language support). As far as obtaining it, it's just a matter of extra downloads (I counted three of them).
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Re: Poor Graphics Card Performance

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Ed Oscuro wrote:
BPzeBanshee wrote:XP Mode according to that page is a function of Virtual PC that must be obtained separately and only works on the higher-tier versions of Windows 7.
Yeah, Pro and Ultimate...Pro is only about $70 right now though (and I went with Ultimate for the better language support). As far as obtaining it, it's just a matter of extra downloads (I counted three of them).
Yeah, when I finally do get myself a new computer with the issue I'll get around to it and report back in a new thread here somewhere. It'll be interesting dealing with the newest problem OS Windows has outputted.
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